Limerick Beggars

zuroph

honourable; yes
Misguided and Naive; yes

I don't think you're trolling.

lets break this down to a small case study.

population of ten people. one is is an alcoholic beggar.
each of the other nine have 2 pounds to give.
they can

a) give the money to the beggar
b) Give the money to a charity that runs a hostel

If you choose A, The alcoholic beggar will spend it on drink. this is not a presumption, this is based on the fact that he has an addiction, and past evidence suggests he does not have the will power to not buy alcohol, since he is a begging alcoholic.
If you choose B, The hostel can offer this man a bed for the night, off the streets.

You say yourself that you dont like homelessness. But by giving him the money instead of the charity, you ARE putting him on the streets.

I know you will argue that not all homeless are alcoholics. I agree. But in Limerick, I am not aware of a single case where there is not drink or drugs involved. all the beggars are getting roofs over their head at night. This is Limerick, we do not have the same amount of homeless that Dublin does. Dublins problem is so much worse because of a higher population, and an earlier introduction of heroin to the streets.
Wait til you see how bad the problem gets once crystal meth, the next big drug to hit ireland, takes hold in Limerick.

johnmolloy554

celticcutie wrote: »

Fighting the debate not considering the points! I'm thinking with my heart and always will...It's about helping unfotunate beggars (that may or may not be homeless). That's the point...

As for what they do with the money as you 'point' out in 'number 2' above - you don't know what they do with the money I give them. Do you? Therefore, you cannot have a conculsive argument on that. And I'm not naive I'm simply kind and generous. I'm not able to stop homelessness in the world but I still have the right to help another human being by giving them a few quid.

...but if I still want to give a bit more to allevite some poor unforutnates wants then I will.

If you're that passionate about helping these "unfortunates" (as you call them)why don't you back up your argument with a little experiment. There's a nice bunch of lads at the junction of Chapel Street and Denmark Street most nights of the week. Why don't you sit down with them from 10pm till the clubs close and see what happens when people like you give them a few quid. I'd love to read your comments next Sunday morning.

Insect Overlord

celticcutie wrote: »

Fighting the debate not considering the points! I'm thinking with my heart and always will. The points - what's the main point here ? It's about helping unfotunate beggars (that may or may not be homeless). That's the point. But you're intent on blowing up mini points everywhere cause you know my overall sentiment is honourable and you can't defeat that.

As for what they do with the money as you 'point' out in 'number 2' above - you don't know what they do with the money I give them. Do you? Therefore, you cannot have a conculsive argument on that. And I'm not naive I'm simply kind and generous. I'm not able to stop homelessness in the world but I still have the right to help another human being by giving them a few quid.

Give the money to charity! As I said I already I do but if I still want to give a bit more to allevite some poor unforutnates wants then I will.

As for hostels being free - some are in Dublin - but I've spoken with certain homeless people who perfer if they can afford it to to rent in normal hostels to be with 'normal' people instead of wet hostels for example.

The quotes in bold contradict each other. a) Failure to think through the possible negative outcomes of your generosity, coupled with b) your blind faith in a predominantly untrustworthy group of people (or thinking with your heart), are blatant displays of naivety.

Next, the underlined quotes. If this were truly the case, that these people were innocent parties or "unfortunates", you'd probably get some sympathy. The only truly unfortunate thing, however, is that the vast majority of beggars in Limerick are i) alcoholics or addicts of some other nature, ii) violent and aggressive to passers-by, iii) con-artists who actually live reasonably comfortable lives or iv) a combination of these. As such, your average person suffers due to their presence on the streets, thereby having a negative effect not only on locals but also on tourists and visitors. On its current small scale this is just a nuisance, but encouraging such behaviour will only lead to it worsening. Limerick City already has a bad enough image, remember?

And finally, the irony of the last line cannot go unpunished: beggars can't be choosers!

Sunn

zuroph wrote: »

Read the thread. these people have homes, welfare money, and spend it on drugs.

You are the first person to bring up that these people have homes and have yet to provide any sort of evidence to validate your claim.

most of us have been in limerick all our lives and DO know the back stories of most of these characters. Also, contact city council to get homeless figures. in fact, contact homeless agencies in Limerick. no1 is sleeping rough. most beggars on the streets have concil housing and are begging to support a drug/drink habit. The gypsies have cars, mobile phones, houses etc etc, and are regularily implicated in ATM crimes, hustles, and plain old theft. If you dont know the back story, dont presume everyone else doesnt. most of us have taken the time to get informed

Gypsies mostly implicated in atm fraud and crimes? Can you even back that up? Has theft and atm crime gone up since these people have arrived.

Most of the comments in this thread are based on nothing more than conjecture and stereotypes. I have yet to see any "facts" to back these spurious claims up.

Hansel

Celtic Cutie, you may feel that you are helping these people in alleviating the pain that comes with their addiction, but I'd also ask you to consider the fact that you are indirectly supporting the people responsible for most of the gang crime in limerick, and the people who make the drugs in other countries and suppress countless millions of poverty stricken people. I've no problem with you doing what you consider to be the right thing in your own mind, but please just consider the above before you make your next donation.

celticcutie

Well I've sat back and considered all your view points to date and thank you all very much for contributing It appears to me that you are all very fond of exercise cause you've got me running round in circles repeating myself - I do genuinely appreciate your assistance in the upkeep of my health :pac:

Therefore, after very, very, very, very careful consideration and indeed deliberation, I have decided that my argument is without a doubt the most intellligent and accurate so I WIN.

And if I was a dragon I'd blow fire at cha :P

Btw, can't believe that I'm now not only being made resonspible for homelessness but also responisible for gang crime in Limerick (with the last post) and if ya think about it on a larger scale I'm probably repsonsible for drugs world wide now considering how generous I am. Jeeeze, I'll never give to beggars again - NOT :P Ye're all a bunch of meanies :P

celticcutie

zuroph wrote: »

honourable; yes
Misguided and Naive; yes

I don't think you're trolling.

.

What's trolling please?

FutureGuy

There is one guy in particlular I would normally give some money to. If you passed him, you'd definately remmeber him. He is always near Empire music on O'Connells Street. No matter if you gave him money or not, he'd always thank you and wish you a nice evening as you passed him (even if you didn't acknowledge him). Anyone know anything about him? If I knew he was usig the money for anything other than food etc (call me naive if you want), I'd probably stop giving him money.

Insect Overlord

celticcutie wrote:

What's trolling please?

from Urban Dictionary

"1a. Noun
One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument.

1b. Noun
A person who, on a message forum of some type, attacks and flames other members of the forum for any of a number of reasons such as rank, previous disagreements, sex, status, ect.
A troll usually flames threads without staying on topic, unlike a "Flamer" who flames a thread because he/she disagrees with the content of the thread.

1c. Noun
A member of an internet forum who continually harangues and harasses others. Someone with nothing worthwhile to add to a certain conversation, but rather continually threadjacks or changes the subject, as well as thinks every member of the forum is talking about them and only them. Trolls often go by multiple names to circumvent getting banned. "

Going by that definition, and the evidence of this post...

celticcutie wrote:

Therefore, after very, very, very, very careful consideration and indeed deliberation, I have decided that my argument is without a doubt the most intellligent and accurate so I WIN.

And if I was a dragon I'd blow fire at cha :P

... you are, indeed, trolling.

johnmolloy554

celticcutie wrote: »

Therefore, after very, very, very, very careful consideration and indeed deliberation, I have decided that my argument is without a doubt the most intellligent and accurate so I WIN.

Jeeeze, I'll never give to beggars again - NOT :P Ye're all a bunch of meanies :P

So I take it you don't have the guts to sit with the Chapel Street / Denmark Street lads next Saturday night???

celticcutie

johnmolloy554 wrote: »

So I take it you don't have the guts to sit with the Chapel Street / Denmark Street lads next Saturday night???

Seems like you're soo interested in this ecxperiement I'll leave it up to yourself :P

zuroph

Sunn wrote: »

You are the first person to bring up that these people have homes and have yet to provide any sort of evidence to validate your claim.

Contact city council or homeless organisations for proof. Im taking those groups word for it, based on recent media reports. If you remember, a few months ago a homeless man was accidentally killed when the skip he was sleeping in was collected and crushed. The local organisations said the real tragedy was it was his first night in the city, and there was plenty of beds available, that they have no1 sleeping rough in Limerick.

Gypsies mostly implicated in atm fraud and crimes? Can you even back that up? Has theft and atm crime gone up since these people have arrived.

Contact local gardaí for evidence. there is regular warnings about the "newspaper in the face" hustle, and the skimmers. any skimming incident caught operating in Limerick city in the last few years has been at the hands of romanians. Raids on buildings throughout the country have unearthed roma gypsy criminal gangs, hugely organised. Its all over the news, just look for it.

Most of the comments in this thread are based on nothing more than conjecture and stereotypes. I have yet to see any "facts" to back these spurious claims up.

if you want facts, go look for them. dont keep your eyes closed and demand proof.

celticcutie

An Fhile wrote: »

from Urban Dictionary

"1a. Noun
One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument.

1b. Noun
A person who, on a message forum of some type, attacks and flames other members of the forum for any of a number of reasons such as rank, previous disagreements, sex, status, ect.
A troll usually flames threads without staying on topic, unlike a "Flamer" who flames a thread because he/she disagrees with the content of the thread.

1c. Noun
A member of an internet forum who continually harangues and harasses others. Someone with nothing worthwhile to add to a certain conversation, but rather continually threadjacks or changes the subject, as well as thinks every member of the forum is talking about them and only them. Trolls often go by multiple names to circumvent getting banned. "

Going by that definition, and the evidence of this post...



... you are, indeed, trolling.

I am not trolling if that's the definition. It's called having an opinion - something you're pretty farmiliar with yourself.

And may I ask if anyone have a sense of humour around here?

zuroph

ok, celtic was trolling after all?!

Insect Overlord

celticcutie wrote: »

I am not trolling if that's the definition. It's called having an opinion - something you're pretty farmiliar with yourself.

And may I ask if anyone have a sense of humour around here?

The Humour Forum is that way, under the Rec tab ---^

You entered a debate on a local issue because you had your own opinions on it, not for sh!ts and giggles.

celticcutie

zuroph wrote: »

ok, celtic was trolling after all?!

I think yourself and An Fhile are pretty good trollers yourselves.

As for your second last post to Sunn - they pointed out that you hadn't any proof to back up your arguments ('points', 'points') which you haven't and your reply post says to contact the Gardai or county council - where's the proof in that?

I can imagine telling my lectureres in Uni who corrected my exam essays to look for the quotes I used in a book wihtout solid reference. Don't think that would have gone down too well.

If you do want to criticise my behaviour as strongly as you do I want to see some stats that directly associate generous lay people with being responsible for homlessness around the world and indeed for gang and drug warfare. Cause at this stage that seems to be the verdict on my generosity.

And again, can I ask is does anyone on this thread have a sense of humour?

celticcutie

An Fhile wrote: »

The Humour Forum is that way, under the Rec tab ---^

You entered a debate on a local issue because you had your own opinions on it, not for sh!ts and giggles.

Most people - obviously not all - can discuss serious topics with some light heartedness where appropriate. Most people that is .........

At this stage in the thread it's been a while since you've contributed any factual or inspiring material to sway my opinion in any shape of form. So what are you trying to accomplish?

Hansel

celticcutie wrote: »

Btw, can't believe that I'm now not only being made resonspible for homelessness but also responisible for gang crime in Limerick (with the last post) and if ya think about it on a larger scale I'm probably repsonsible for drugs world wide now considering how generous I am. Jeeeze, I'll never give to beggars again - NOT :P Ye're all a bunch of meanies :P

:rolleyes: Where did I say that you are responsible for any of this? I said that you are indirectly contributing and supporting them, which you are
I'll spell this out so that you don't say that you're not contributing....

• You give money to beggar with drug addiction
• Beggar spends money on drugs - gives money to drug dealers/gang members.
• Drug Dealers pay their suppliers, with money that includes yours.
• Suppliers pay the drug barons with money that also includes yours.

Sadly, millions of people worldwide are guilty of this, but are either ignorant to the fact, or do not care. You are contributing to crime, whether you like it or not.

zuroph

http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial&hs=9Ls&q=roma+atm+gypsy&btnG=Search&meta=

http://hiberniagirl.blogspot.com/2008/07/roma-gypsy-gang-leaves-dublin-other.html

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=55512136

problem not just in Ireland
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-512713/Thousands-gypsy-children-brought-Britain-work-pickpockets-warns-MP.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/roma-fagin-gang-leaves--but-others-will-take-its-place-1428503.html

Insect Overlord

celticcutie wrote: »

I think yourself and An Fhile are pretty good trollers yourselves.

The term you're looking for is 'troll', darling.

celticcutie wrote: »

As for your second last post to Sunn - they pointed out that you hadn't any proof to back up your arguments ('points', 'points') which you haven't and your reply post says to contact the Gardai or county council - where's the proof in that?

I can imagine telling my lectureres in Uni who corrected my exam essays to look for the quotes I used in a book wihtout solid reference. Don't think that would have gone down too well.

If you do want to criticise my behaviour as strongly as you do I want to see some stats that directly associate generous lay people with being responsible for homlessness around the world and indeed for gang and drug warfare. Cause at this stage that seems to be the verdict on my generosity.

In the interest of fairness, seeing as you're demanding 'proof' from other posters, is it ok if I ask you to prove that your behaviour is entirely victimless? Or is your knowledge of sociology so outstanding that you can rely entirely on your good faith? :rolleyes:

celticcutie wrote: »

And again, can I ask is does anyone on this thread have a sense of humour?

This issue was already addressed, despite it being off-topic.

zuroph

zuroph wrote: »

honourable; yes
Misguided and Naive; yes

I don't think you're trolling.

lets break this down to a small case study.

population of ten people. one is is an alcoholic beggar.
each of the other nine have 2 pounds to give.
they can

a) give the money to the beggar
b) Give the money to a charity that runs a hostel

If you choose A, The alcoholic beggar will spend it on drink. this is not a presumption, this is based on the fact that he has an addiction, and past evidence suggests he does not have the will power to not buy alcohol, since he is a begging alcoholic.
If you choose B, The hostel can offer this man a bed for the night, off the streets.

You say yourself that you dont like homelessness. But by giving him the money instead of the charity, you ARE putting him on the streets.

I know you will argue that not all homeless are alcoholics. I agree. But in Limerick, I am not aware of a single case where there is not drink or drugs involved. all the beggars are getting roofs over their head at night. This is Limerick, we do not have the same amount of homeless that Dublin does. Dublins problem is so much worse because of a higher population, and an earlier introduction of heroin to the streets.
Wait til you see how bad the problem gets once crystal meth, the next big drug to hit ireland, takes hold in Limerick.

Celtic, can you respond to this samplestudy please?

celticcutie

zuroph wrote: »

http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial&hs=9Ls&q=roma+atm+gypsy&btnG=Search&meta=

http://hiberniagirl.blogspot.com/2008/07/roma-gypsy-gang-leaves-dublin-other.html

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=55512136

problem not just in Ireland
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-512713/Thousands-gypsy-children-brought-Britain-work-pickpockets-warns-MP.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/roma-fagin-gang-leaves--but-others-will-take-its-place-1428503.html

Ahh am looking for the link to the problems versus my generosity being the cause of it Zuroph.................

zuroph

celticcutie wrote: »

Ahh am looking for the link to the problems versus my generosity being the cause of it Zuroph.................

this wasnt a responce to you celtic. this was responce to sunn.

My casestudy above shows why it is your fault.

concussion

Sunn wrote: »

Gypsies mostly implicated in atm fraud and crimes?

My girlfriends sister had €300 stolen from her at the BoI ATM on the corner of Bedford Row and O'Connell St. It was lunchtime and there was a queue of people waiting behind her. As she selected her withdrawal a Roma gypsy came up besider her, wailing and shoving a copy of the Big Issue in her face. While she was distracted another one stole the cash from the ATM and made off with it. They are quite skilled at this because they have plenty of practice.

There have been quite a lot of these thefts - one I know of first hand, one second hand and the Garda dealing with the above incident admitted that is happens quite often. They know the family and where they live but unless they catch them immediately there's very little proof. And I forgot to mention that both of the girls who conducted the theft were minors.

Have you noticed that every few months you don't see them around?? It's because they move onto other towns and cities to start afresh.

Here's some proof for you, local papers carried a story aswell but I can't find them.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/roma-fagin-gang-leaves--but-others-will-take-its-place-1428503.html

One of the tabloids carried a story about how they fake disabilities - they had photos of a gypsy in Dublin limping about, begging. Then they had a photo of him wandering out of a shop with a deli-roll and his crutch casually tucked under his arm.....ever seen the old gypsy woman with the crutch around Limerick, the one who's always swaying and muttering and sticking her hand in your face?

Insect Overlord

celticcutie wrote: »

Most people - obviously not all - can discuss serious topics with some light heartedness where appropriate. Most people that is .........

At this stage in the thread it's been a while since you've contributed any factual or inspiring material to sway my opinion in any shape of form. So what are you trying to accomplish?

Within the last 60 minutes I have directly responded to two of your requests for factual or inspiring information by giving you the definition for trolling and by pointing you in the correct direction for humour on Boards.

What I am trying to accomplish is offer a different perspective to yours, which you seem to be having great difficulty in accepting. I'm not saying you'll ever agree with me, but it's important to recognise varying viewpoints. I've seen some of your posts in the Creative Writing forum, and I must say your approach to that area of Boards is far more positive. If you can offer feedback on the very subjective area of poetry, surely you should be able to accept feedback on the far more factual area of beggars in Limerick.

celticcutie

Hansel wrote: »

:rolleyes: Where did I say that you are responsible for any of this? .

Try all over the place! you've defeated your own argument there!
thanks :P

celticcutie

An Fhile wrote: »

Within the last 60 minutes I have directly responded to two of your requests for factual or inspiring information by giving you the definition for trolling and by pointing you in the correct direction for humour on Boards.

What? that's not proving your own argument in any strength - your just battering my strenght of opinion considering your trolling yourself!

What I am trying to accomplish is offer a different perspective to yours, which you seem to be having great difficulty in accepting. I'm not saying you'll ever agree with me, but it's important to recognise varying viewpoints. I've seen some of your posts in the Creative Writing forum, and I must say your approach to that area of Boards is far more positive. If you can offer feedback on the very subjective area of poetry, surely you should be able to accept feedback on the far more factual area of beggars in Limerick.

As for my opinion on other threads/forums that you mentino here - trolling also refers to people not referring to another persons arguments in a different thread/forum to gain momentum for their own arguments in a different thread/forum. So there - you're a first class troll yourself. And you still haven't contributed any meaningful information to change my point of view

Hansel

celticcutie wrote: »

Try all over the place! you've defeated your own argument there!
thanks :P

What planet are you on? I guess it's pointless arguing with somebody who ignores logic.
Anyway, you contribute, I don't hold you responsible personally.
If it makes you feel better to give some junkie their fix, feel free to continue, but you are not doing the right thing, no matter what you believe.

zuroph

Ignoring the sample so are we?!

celticcutie

Hansel wrote: »

What planet are you on? I guess it's pointless arguing with somebody who ignores logic.
Anyway, you contribute, I don't hold you responsible personally.
If it makes you feel better to give some junkie their fix, feel free to continue, but you are not doing the right thing, no matter what you believe.

That's your opinion! Everyone seems to have strong opinions here and nothing to back them up.

Great to have something in common :P

And I'm from planet kindness for your information. Tis a terrible, terrible place. We creatures actually think that generosity and giving a helping hand to some poor displaced soul is humane. Imagine that