Dept of Ag to publish what each farmer receives from EU funded schemes

http://www.galwaynews.ie/4787-show-and-tell
From the Connacht Tribune, Friday the 29th.

From next month, anyone can log onto the Department of Agriculture website and start finding out what each individual farmer receives from EU funded schemes.

This week, farm leaders and some politicians have described the development as ‘completely over the top’ and an invasion of the privacy of individual farmers.

I haven't seen this anywhere else but I doubt the tribune would be making things up.

Will we all be checking what the neighbours get?

fastrac

yes

kfk

There is a short article in the Farmers Journal about this also.

Furze

Does the taxman get this independantly ?
Does the health boards get it Re: Educational grants ?

reilig

Furze wrote: »

Does the taxman get this independantly ?
Does the health boards get it Re: Educational grants ?

The tax man gets all farmers earnings information automatically because in order for a farmer to draw down a grant, he must supply his/her pps number.

Educational grants are provided by VECs or Local authorities - depending on where you go to college. These grants are paid based on the farm accounts submitted to and accepted by the revenue commissioners.

Many people are hoodwinked into thinking that farmers make huge profits and hide them from revenue when the fact is that many farmers might take in large amounts of money from animal sales and grants, but they also have huge outgoings.

In simple terms, incomings - outgoings = profits.

And farmers must pay tax on these profits - if any.

Many farms in Ireland are operating at a loss because farmers have off farm jobs and are literally only farming as a hobby.

I'd be more concerned that most of Ireland's millionaires use tax loopholes not to pay tax at all.

brianthebard

Thats a complete invasion of privacy and a double standard to boot,they aren't publishing any other accounts are they?Disgusting imo.

reilig

brianthebard wrote: »

Thats a complete invasion of privacy and a double standard to boot,they aren't publishing any other accounts are they?Disgusting imo.

I don't totally agree with you. I for one don't mind if what I get is published. I get a good single payment for the amount of land that I have, but it won't make anyone jealous of me.

In the past there have been a number of contraversies about EU money being unaccounted for. The single payment is EU money and the public have a right to know where it goes. As in my above post, I'll repeat that just because someone gets €10k in a grant doesn't mean that its profit. Most farmers would be making huge losses if there were no grants. Many would abandon the industry. A lot of land would be forested, and the rest run in huge big farms with little addition to local communities, habitats, or wildlife.

Its no secret that farmers get grants, but what a lot of people don't realise is that we work for this money. The grants also go full circle. If we didn't get the grants, we would not be able to produce food as cheap as we do. Imagine the crys of all those people who begrudge farmers their sngle payment if food in supermarkets suddenly doubled in price.

Many non-farmers seem to think that we get the money for nothing when in actual fact, the grants benefit them more than it benefits the farmers, because at the end of they day, they are the consumers who buy the subsidised food at reasonable prices.

brianthebard

I'm well aware of the fact that the majority of farmers don't make a profit on it, thank you very much. That doesn't stop it being an invasion of privacy and a double standard.

reilig

brianthebard wrote: »

I'm well aware of the fact that the majority of farmers don't make a profit on it, thank you very much. That doesn't stop it being an invasion of privacy and a double standard.

But its an EU grant - you can look up any other EU grant paid in Ireland and see where it goes and who receives it. Should it not be the same for farmers?

The idea is that if you take public money you should be open to public scrutiny.

OK maybe not down to the level of dole and child benefit payments but for subsidies to businesses yes.

Also I looked around for the farmers journal article but couldn't find it online.

reilig

Deleted User wrote: »

The idea is that if you take public money you should be open to public scrutiny.

OK maybe not down to the level of dole and child benefit payments but for subsidies to businesses yes.

Also I looked around for the farmers journal article but couldn't find it online.

Its on last thursday's farmer's journal.

Its not as if the Framers Journal are going to publish the name and amount for every farmer that receives a single payment. It will be an online thing - you will need to have the farmer's herd number and pps number to look it up.

brianthebard

reilig wrote: »

But its an EU grant - you can look up any other EU grant paid in Ireland and see where it goes and who receives it. Should it not be the same for farmers?

Well if a business gets an EU grant, are we entitled to see where the CEO spends his cash, and all that?

Furze

reilig wrote: »

It will be an online thing - you will need to have the farmer's herd number and pps number to look it up.

Name and address per this Dept. document. http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/areasofi/NOTICETOBENEFICIARIESFINAL.pdf

reilig wrote: »

The tax man gets all farmers earnings information automatically because in order for a farmer to draw down a grant, he must supply his/her pps number.

Draws down grant from Dept. Does Dept. forward amounts & PPS to the taxman ?

I believe this is the thin edge of the wedge and will be used as a precedent
for National payments of whatever nature to be made public !

No to Lisbon 2.

reilig

Furze wrote: »

Name and address per this Dept. document. http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/areasofi/NOTICETOBENEFICIARIESFINAL.pdf


Draws down grant from Dept. Does Dept. forward amounts & PPS to the taxman ?

I believe this is the thin edge of the wedge and will be used as a precedent
for National payments of whatever nature to be made public !

No to Lisbon 2.

Why would the Dep of agriculture need to forward details of payments to the tax man - the tax man (aka revenue) has cross departmental access to any other department that he wants information from. It just takes a click of a computer for him to find these figures.

The name and address and payment will be released by imputting your pps number and herd number, it was on last week's journal, if they're telling lies, then I am too.

Why should any farmer have anything to hide if they are doing things legitimately?


Vote YES in Lisbon to protect Irish Farmers and the subsidies that keep them in business.

reilig

brianthebard wrote: »

Well if a business gets an EU grant, are we entitled to see where the CEO spends his cash, and all that?

Yes, but a farm is a business the same as any other business. you must submit accounts which show the farmer's drawings. Like the CEO of any other business, we don't see where he or she spends his cash, but we should be entitled to see where EU money goes - nobody said anything about publishing how the farmer spends the money!!

If a business gets an EU grant, the public are entitled to see how much they got and why they received it. But the public aren't entitled to see how much the workers or the CEO get paid or what they do with their wages.

LovelyHurling

My Mum's a dentist and not only is her income from the GMS Scheme freely availabl to anyone who wants to see it, like that of her colleagues, such details are also published in the local newspaper!

This kind of scheme is an example of the transparency all EU and state funding requires, and in the long run benefits all taxpayers, including farmers.

irish_bob

LovelyHurling wrote: »

My Mum's a dentist and not only is her income from the GMS Scheme freely availabl to anyone who wants to see it, like that of her colleagues, such details are also published in the local newspaper!

This kind of scheme is an example of the transparency all EU and state funding requires, and in the long run benefits all taxpayers, including farmers.

i doubt your mums home adress is published , more likely her business adress

for farmers , there business adress in there home adress , its a key difference

taibhse

Also its the same MEPs calling for this so called "transparency", who only last year vetoed their own expenses being made public. Its absolute hypocrisy at its worst.

ploughbynight

This is correct. I am not a recipient of such payments but I do disagree with their publication. They form a significant part of farmers incomes and the fact that they are from the EU is incidental. These payments are part of the failed common agricultural policy CAP. FArmers did not ask for support mechanisms back in the 70s and 80s, they were offered to guarantee food security and all they have done is foster inefficiency and have taken away the freedom to farm. They have artificially suppported the price of conacre and have done little to stop the multitudes feaing from the land.
The sooner we get back to producing without subsidy the better for farming.

The_Conductor

ploughbynight wrote: »

FArmers did not ask for support mechanisms back in the 70s and 80s, they were offered to guarantee food security and all they have done is foster inefficiency and have taken away the freedom to farm. They have artificially suppported the price of conacre and have done little to stop the multitudes feaing from the land.
The sooner we get back to producing without subsidy the better for farming.

First of all- the Irish and the French lobbied incredibly hard on behalf of the CAP- the example of the IFA was held up to the rest of the farming organisations in Europe as to what can be achieved via militancy (later French escapades have been a tad unfortunate). Its simply not true to say that farmers did not ask for support mechanisms- they fought hand over heel for them.

Supports may have inflated the price of rural land, and done precious little to mitigate rural depopulation- there are however numerous other schemes in place (also EU funded) which aim to support rural populaces.

Farming without subsidy is a noble goal, and in an ideal world, what we should strive for. The simple fact is however that its not a level playing field. Why should Irish farmers (and indeed farmers from the rest of Europe) be cut adrift when farmers elsewhere in the world are subsidised to the gills. It most certainly was not Europe who scuttered the last GATT discussions.......

Totally aside from subsidies- EU consumers demand very high standards of produce (along with traceability etc), which is very expensive to implement and indeed has been a bugbear of the farming industry on occasion. Would these stringent conditions of production continue to be adhered to in the absence of some sort of market supports (even non-production aka blue box supports)?

Brazillian beef certainly is not farmed in a similar manner to Irish beef- and sheep farmers in France cannot compete with New Zealand wild imports. Does this inability to compete on a level playing field mean that those farming practices should simply be abondoned? If the inefficient practices are abondoned- would you allow all the smaller farmers to sell out to larger producers who could quite possibly control food prices in a cartel like manner (even more so than the supermarkets)?

Its a quagmire- a mess. Sure- the total abolition of subsidies sounds wonderful in theory (not least because they consume over 50% of the total EU budget). But, to abondon them at what price?

Gu3rr1lla

Deleted User wrote: »

http://www.galwaynews.ie/4787-show-and-tell
From the Connacht Tribune, Friday the 29th.


I haven't seen this anywhere else but I doubt the tribune would be making things up.

Will we all be checking what the neighbours get?

And what about giant corporations like Monsanto who are destroying our food supply with their frankenstein food, doing farmers out of business with their patented seeds and offspring (even if the seeds were planted from the trade winds), arresting farmers who dont pay royalties with their own police force, and destroying the biodiversity of both developed and developing countries.

Monsanto has members on the FDA, making political decisions. Just like when Searle hired Donald Rumsfeld as their CEO to allow aspartame, a biological weapon, to be put into our soft drinks and increasingly into our foods. Heres a tip to the farmers in here - Indian farmers use Code/Pepsi as a cost effective pesticide http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=4fpEgurO-ec

I recommend everyone who reads this to watch this documentary about Monsanto http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6262083407501596844

ploughbynight

I beg to differ with some of the previous posts, and let me just state that I am a grain grower albeit without the luxury of a Single Farm Payment and my family have a long farming tradition that I hope will be carried on for future generations.
Firstly a couple of facts.
Ireland did lobby hard for quasi decoupling of payments from production achieved in the uruguay round of the WTO GATT agreement. The MacSharry reforms in the EC in 1992 resulted in "Area Aid" being paid in 1993. Grain farmers were compensated for predicted price drop (whihc was not as dramatic as forecasters)
These direct payments were to replace the intervention system which distorted the market price in the EU. 1993 to 1997 the market prices remained healthy.
I am not talking about Irish farmers. I am talking about European farmers and indeed world farmers producing commodities with food safety in mind. Not the mindless political interferance we have suffered for the last 15 years in particular which denies us of any real science based decision making in matters related to agriculture. We are denied GM crops, we are denied a whole plethora of pesticides still used in the rest of the world but disallowe din EU for optics. we have more draconian nutrient management regulations than any other region in the world.
A lot of the measures adopted by the EU are noteworthy and are are justified especuially in the area of environment, but in the last 10 years we have seen a political correctness and a holier than thou atitude snowball into a crazed frenzy of scaremongering and pointless regulation. The EU parliament, Commission and Member States have assumed the position of nanny for the populous and have placed restrictions and bans on substances and practices taht make no sense scientifically. This has the effect that we now perceive that the practices that occur in other countries as being not acceptable. Who cares if they use BST in milk production in North and South America, we still consume the skim milk powder in the EU. Who cares if they use growth promoting hormones in beef production in North and South America the ficle Irish consumer still eats it. What is important is that we dont throw the baby out with the bath water. Regulate sensibly! Regulate sensibly and dont smother industry with red tape. You can slow the departure from the land but you will not stop it. In the meantime there are those of us who are being held back because of unfair competition. Give me freedom to farm! I will produce wheat at world market price but not if I am to compete with my neighbour with a Single Farm Payment (which he is entitled to)
If EU drops its protectionist stance I believe that US and CAN would do same.

And just a note for others there is a differenec between EU grants and EU subsidies. Subsidies are an entitlement, grants are more ad hoc.
Let the debate go on........

red2

Deleted User wrote: »

http://www.galwaynews.ie/4787-show-and-tell
From the Connacht Tribune, Friday the 29th.

Will we all be checking what the neighbours get?

Yep all nosey people will be checking up their nextdoor neighbours payments.Personally I think its unfair to publish these details.What good is it going to do anyone by publishing such info?I suppose we know what next months banter and discussion at the local pubs will be !!!!

snowman707

reilig wrote: »

The tax man gets all farmers earnings information automatically because in order for a farmer to draw down a grant, he must supply his/her pps number.

Educational grants are provided by VECs or Local authorities - depending on where you go to college. These grants are paid based on the farm accounts submitted to and accepted by the revenue commissioners.

Many people are hoodwinked into thinking that farmers make huge profits and hide them from revenue when the fact is that many farmers might take in large amounts of money from animal sales and grants, but they also have huge outgoings.

In simple terms, incomings - outgoings = profits.

And farmers must pay tax on these profits - if any.

Many farms in Ireland are operating at a loss because farmers have off farm jobs and are literally only farming as a hobby.

I'd be more concerned that most of Ireland's millionaires use tax loopholes not to pay tax at all.

NO !!

Educational authorities will not accept the same accounts as the Revenue

They do not allow anything for Capital Expenses ,

RTE Article
According to RTE

Payment details including the early retirement, environment and disadvantaged area schemes will be available on www.agriculture.gov.ie starting tonight.

irish_bob

Deleted User wrote: »

RTE Article
According to RTE

surprise surprise , the site is alot like the road out of killkenny to the ploughing championships last week

charter for nosey parkers indeed

finbarrk

I can't see it on the website.

The_Conductor

finbarrk wrote: »

I can't see it on the website.

Try here

S.

emmemm

I think it's botched. I notice some people with the same surname and the same adress with the same payment to the last cent.:rolleyes:

massey woman

Exactly what is included
Reps,single farm payment and retirement ?
I notice the department have omitted a lot of benefactors including my own !
When will the list be completed ?
I dont know how much I got
Its so small its of no consequence unfortunately and for the vast majority it is re invested in the home/farm

The_Conductor

massey woman wrote: »

Exactly what is included
Reps,single farm payment and retirement ?
I notice the department have omitted a lot of benefactors including my own !
When will the list be completed ?
I dont know how much I got
Its so small its of no consequence unfortunately and for the vast majority it is re invested in the home/farm

Only EU payments are included- no national payments- so it should include: Single Farm Payment, REPS, young farmers installation, disadvantaged areas, sugar restructuring, and the farm improvements scheme etc (not early retirement/retirement schemes or other directly Irish funded measures).......