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Irish Rail enforce discrimination

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  • 02-09-2008 6:01pm
    #1
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,799 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    Don't think this has been mentioned here yet, but it really made my blood boil:

    http://www.mamanpoulet.com/?p=438

    Gods, we're a bass-ackward country in so many ways.


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    #2
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    Why should Irish Rail be expected to provide free travel in such cases, its a business not a charity.

    It would seem to me they are merely honouring the terms of their contract with the government when it comes to reimbursement. I would assume the inspectors have the power to demand identification from heterosexual couples to prove compliance with the rules.


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    #3
    rainbow kirby
    Registered Users Posts: 26,928 ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    Oh dear.

    Every time you start thinking that this country might be making progress, you see things like this.


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    #4
    Goodshape
    Registered Users Posts: 8,488 ✭✭✭Goodshape


    Rev Hellfire wrote: »
    Why should Irish Rail be expected to provide free travel in such cases, its a business not a charity.

    It would seem to me they are merely honouring the terms of their contract with the government when it comes to reimbursement. I would assume the inspectors have the power to demand identification from heterosexual couples to prove compliance with the rules.

    Under their rules :
    Co-habiting heterosexual partners can get a free travel pass.
    Co-habiting homosexual partners can not.

    Why?

    It's not a questions of "honouring the terms of their contract", it's a question of why those terms should exist in the first place.

    And nothing to do with marriage here either. No-one is asking that anyone be married, or that they have children.. only that they be heterosexual.


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    #5
    BuffyBot
    Registered Users Posts: 24,924 ✭✭✭✭BuffyBot


    It's being discussed on Commuting & Transport.

    Frankly, it's not really IE's issue so I don't understand the outrage in that respect. They've got a business to run and they're unlikely to give out free travel when they're not going to be able to recoup the cost from the DSFA.


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    #6
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,799 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    BuffyBot wrote: »
    Frankly, it's not really IE's issue so I don't understand the outrage in that respect. They've got a business to run and they're unlikely to give out free travel when they're not going to be able to recoup the cost from the DSFA.
    Two things: first, my outrage is aimed firmly at the DSFA, especially that troglodyte Mary Coghlan.

    Secondly, the manner of IE's enforcement policy is offensive. If someone has a travel pass, they're entitled to use it if they can produce photo ID to show such entitlement. It's not IE's place to determine whether or not someone is entitled to such a pass; merely that they have one and that they are who they claim to be.


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    #7
    LovelyHurling
    Closed Accounts Posts: 955 ✭✭✭LovelyHurling


    Are you sure there's no logical or legal reason as to why same sex couples cannot be allowed this benefit that isn't currently being addressed by the DS&FA?

    I can't imagine what reasons, it just doesn't seem to add up that they would take a personal interest in preventing common sense from prevailing in this way.

    Or maybe that department is just slightly more backward than I already thought.


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    #8
    Stark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,978 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    Well the Equality authority doesn't seem to agree with the decision: http://www.equality.ie/index.asp?docID=247

    Apparently the DSFA are afraid that allowing same sex partners travel pass will open the floodgates regarding same sex couples claiming partner benefits.


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    #9
    LovelyHurling
    Closed Accounts Posts: 955 ✭✭✭LovelyHurling


    Are there any other social welfare benefits that cohabiting heterosexual couples avail of that are not open to homosexual cohabiting couples?


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    #10
    Boston
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,163 ✭✭✭✭Boston


    Rev Hellfire wrote: »
    Why should Irish Rail be expected to provide free travel in such cases, its a business not a charity.

    No, its a state supported business.

    Apart from that, I agree completely with the points made be oscarbravo.


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    #11
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    Boston wrote: »
    No, its a state supported business.

    Apart from that, I agree completely with the points made be oscarbravo.
    State sponsored businesses still have a duty to operate in a fiscally responsible manner.

    Don't get me wrong btw, I think the law's wrong, but IR are implementing it correctly in this case.


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    #12
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    LovelyHurling wrote: »
    Are you sure there's no logical or legal reason as to why same sex couples cannot be allowed this benefit that isn't currently being addressed by the DS&FA?

    I can't imagine what reasons, it just doesn't seem to add up that they would take a personal interest in preventing common sense from prevailing in this way.

    Or maybe that department is just slightly more backward than I already thought.

    The department specifically outlawed claims of free travel by same sex couples in 2004 in the social welfare amendment act 2004 - I think it's the former minister mary coughlan and the current minister mary hanifin that are the backward ones

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #13
    fluffybunnyhead
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭fluffybunnyhead


    I was pretty outraged when I saw this thread, and have since mailed Irish Rail with a complaint. So far I've received this reply:

    May I ask where about in Heuston station this notice is exactly? I myself would like see this so that I can also bring up an issue with the company here. I have forwarded this email onto our head office for you. A member of staff there will be in contact with you.


    Will post any other replies I get!


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    #14
    Yoda
    Registered Users Posts: 1,853 ✭✭✭Yoda


    Platform 7 at both kiosks.


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    #15
    jaffa20
    Registered Users Posts: 4,531 ✭✭✭jaffa20


    Pretty disgusting i must say but we can't blame IR for enforcing the law. I hate IR anyway. Their service is **** for the outrages prices they charge!


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    #16
    eth0_
    Registered Users Posts: 10,846 ✭✭✭✭eth0_


    Don't blame Irish Rail, blame the DSFA. Irish Rail are just enforcing a law they have no control over.

    If you want to do something about it, get the international news interested in the story. Contact the European court of human rights.


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    #17
    fluffybunnyhead
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭fluffybunnyhead


    Another response from Iriah Rail:

    As you may be aware, Iarnród Éireann, in common with other public transport providers, are obliged to ensure the terms of the Free Travel Scheme as set out by the Department of Social and Family Affairs are adhered to.



    The tickets of everyone who travels with us must be paid for - in the vast majority of cases, the individual pays for the ticket, unless the DSFA has provided free travel entitlement. The DSFA, therefore, "pays" for free travel, and therefore it is the authority which sets the parameters of who is and who is not entitled to free travel.



    To ensure we remain within these parameters, we would always ensure that our staff are aware of the current provisions as they apply.



    We would issue notices to ensure this is the case, and a notice has issued detailing certain provisions, including a direct copy of the terms and conditions of the set out by the DSFA which precludes same sex couples from availing of married/partner companion travel.



    Therefore, this restriction is one which is governed by the DSFA, and Iarnród Éireann has no authority in this regard.



    Regards



    IE Info


    Seems to be a blame game really, we're just doing our jobs etc etc. So its a policy issue of the DSFA, and i guess thats where the complaints and protests should be directed!


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    #18
    Rhonda9000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 451 ✭✭Rhonda9000


    Just by way of background to this..

    In 1997, an English lesbian rail worker claimed discrimination against the rail co she worked for when she could not avail of free travel for her partner which was available to unmarried heterosexual partners at the time. The English House of Lords found against her and the case also fell later on in the European Court of Justice.

    The current policy can probably be traced in some respects back to that decision.


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    #19
    corkstudent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 473 ✭✭corkstudent


    You know as much as Rev Hellfire is blowing off steam they still have every opportunity to take a stance and go against this "law". Don't act like the corporations have no place in it.


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    #20
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    corkstudent wrote: »
    You know as much as Rev Hellfire is blowing off steam they still have every opportunity to take a stance and go against this "law". Don't act like the corporations have no place in it.

    I'm totally neutral on this matter, it doesn't bother me one way or another.

    I was simply pointing out that IR wouldn't receive income due to the terms of the legislation. No one travels for 'free' those fairs are by the government.
    Its not IR's job to campaign against against perceived slights in the law, if you want it changed contact your local representative.


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    #21
    who is this
    Registered Users Posts: 500 ✭✭✭who is this


    The worst part is that only now is the DSFA "examining" such issues.

    The ever-honest fellows at FF promised a "comprehensive" CP scheme. DSFA and DF issues were to be addressed by their own ministers (according to DJELR) so why were they not already "examining" this?


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    #22
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    who is this wrote: »
    The worst part is that only now is the DSFA "examining" such issues.

    The ever-honest fellows at FF promised a "comprehensive" CP scheme. DSFA and DF issues were to be addressed by their own ministers (according to
    DJELR) so why were they not already "examining" this?

    They were!!!!!!!! Minister Coughlan actually said 4 bloody years ago when she was introducing this legislation that there would be a review

    “As I outlined, a key objective of the Bill is to remove the difference between the statutory and administrative schemes in the treatment of couples. Sections 18 and 19, which define “spouse” for the purposes of both scheme types, are designed to restore the position which obtained before the decision in the free travel case I mentioned earlier. I stress that the measure is an interim solution, pending an extensive review of the social welfare code in the context of the principles of the equal status legislation. The purpose of the review will be to ensure that any difference of treatment on any of the discriminatory grounds are justified by a legitimate social policy objective and that the means of achieving that objective are necessary and appropriate. It is expected that the review will take some years to complete, as it will examine complex issues with potential implications for matters outside the scope of the social welfare code. The review will be conducted in consultation with interested parties, including other Departments. The proposed format will be agreed with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform.”

    http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=SEN20040323.xml&Page=1&Ex=236#N236

    and then the DSFA advertised their review in 2007

    http://www.welfare.ie/equalityreview.html

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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