European Union Expansion

Riddle101

Who here is for EU expansion, do you like the idea of countries like Turkey coming into the EU? and what about the future, who's gonna be next on the EU list, maybe Russia, maybe Iraq or Iran or possibly Isreal. Should the EU expand as far as it can go to possibly even Asia? or should it just stay within the boundaries of Europe?

I ask this because a guy in my class in college thinks the EU should expand, why not?

But me, i'm against EU expansion. Don't get me wrong the EU has been good to us and it would ensure peace, but at the same time i feel like the EU is too domineering, always coming out with new treaties for more power or trying to bring out a new legistration, and i think that the more the EU grows the more we as a country lose in influence and even more so that the EU will look more like a United States of Europe then a Union. Oh and no i do not support Liberatas if anyone thinks i'm listening to them or work for them, it's just a simple belief of mine.

irish_bob

Riddle101 wrote: »

Who here is for EU expansion, do you like the idea of countries like Turkey coming into the EU? and what about the future, who's gonna be next on the EU list, maybe Russia, maybe Iraq or Iran or possibly Isreal. Should the EU expand as far as it can go to possibly even Asia? or should it just stay within the boundaries of Europe?

I ask this because a guy in my class in college thinks the EU should expand, why not?

But me, i'm against EU expansion. Don't get me wrong the EU has been good to us and it would ensure peace, but at the same time i feel like the EU is too domineering, always coming out with new treaties for more power or trying to bring out a new legistration, and i think that the more the EU grows the more we as a country lose in influence and even more so that the EU will look more like a United States of Europe then a Union. Oh and no i do not support Liberatas if anyone thinks i'm listening to them or work for them, it's just a simple belief of mine.

ireland has contributed hardly any blood or treasure to europe so if we vote no to lisbon 2 , we will be voting ourselves out of eu membership
we need them alot and they dont need us at all

K-9

Riddle101 wrote: »

Who here is for EU expansion, do you like the idea of countries like Turkey coming into the EU? and what about the future, who's gonna be next on the EU list, maybe Russia, maybe Iraq or Iran or possibly Isreal. Should the EU expand as far as it can go to possibly even Asia? or should it just stay within the boundaries of Europe?

I ask this because a guy in my class in college thinks the EU should expand, why not?

But me, i'm against EU expansion. Don't get me wrong the EU has been good to us and it would ensure peace, but at the same time i feel like the EU is too domineering, always coming out with new treaties for more power or trying to bring out a new legistration, and i think that the more the EU grows the more we as a country lose in influence and even more so that the EU will look more like a United States of Europe then a Union. Oh and no i do not support Liberatas if anyone thinks i'm listening to them or work for them, it's just a simple belief of mine.

Often the same people who voted No to Lisbon or are Eurosceptic, then moan about how ineffectual the EU's foreign policy is. Eg. The Mail complaining about a toothless EU as regards Russia, but then urging a No Vote!

sink

Seanies32 wrote: »

Often the same people who voted No to Lisbon or are Eurosceptic, then moan about how ineffectual the EU's foreign policy is. Eg. The Mail complaining about a toothless EU as regards Russia, but then urging a No Vote!

The British Eurosceptic press have a huge influence over here now. Things are only going to get worse, pretty soon we'll be just as ignorant as the UK.

http://www.irishtimes.com/focus/2008/lisbondocument/index.pdf

O'Morris

Riddle101 wrote: »

do you like the idea of countries like Turkey coming into the EU?

No, definitely not. Even Valery Giscard d'Estaing is opposed to the idea of letting Turkey in.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Val%C3%A9ry_Giscard_d%27Estaing

djpbarry

O'Morris wrote: »

No, definitely not.

Why not?

oscarBravo

Different tribe, innit.

Oiche_mhaith

irish_bob wrote: »

i
no to lisbon 2 , we will be voting ourselves out of eu membership
we need them alot and they dont need us at all

This is complete rubbish. they said the same thing about lisbon, that Ireland would be the first to suffer. I'm pro europe but find it hard to support europe when people bully you into a yes (for the politicians). The no vote wasn't bad for ireland at all, in fact we might even get a second referendum with more favourable terms for us... it was bad for europe though, although how bad i'm not sure, we were told if a no went through europe would ground to a halt... seems to be chugging along nicley now...

On additional members... how can we refuse other countries membership?

dresden8

Seanies32 wrote: »

Often the same people who voted No to Lisbon or are Eurosceptic, then moan about how ineffectual the EU's foreign policy is. Eg. The Mail complaining about a toothless EU as regards Russia, but then urging a No Vote!

Russia unfortunately can do what it wants in its own back yard. Lisbon would not suddenly empower the Germans or the French to march on Moscow. They've learnt that lesson.

If the EU decides to play hard ball with Russia they can decide to turn off the gas two days before Christmas. What will Lisbon do for us then?

oscarBravo

This isn't a Lisbon thread, let's keep it on-topic.

djpbarry

oscarBravo wrote: »

Different tribe, innit.

Ah. Noted.

O'Morris

djpbarry wrote: »

Why not?

Because Turkey is not a European country. It's an Asiatic, Muslim country with a culture that's foreign to the Christian culture of Europe. Europe already has serious problems in integrating Muslims and so granting free movement to 70 million Muslim Turks is hardly going to do much to further the goal of European integration.

I agree with Valery Gistang De Valera who said that Turkey's entry into the EU would mean the end of Europe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giscard

dresden8

oscarBravo wrote: »

This isn't a Lisbon thread, let's keep it on-topic.

Agreed.

dresden8

Expansion of Europe would lead to several problems as it pushed into the near east.

Turkey is a modern secular government. But.......... it has a vast Asian hinterland that is positively medieval in it's mindset.

Russia has already laid down markers as to what it will allow on its borders. Can Europe take on Russia in its own backyard?

Does Europe really want to get directly involved in Israeli-Palestinian issues? What are Europes policies? I'd say the people and governments are quite split. Divisive is not the word.

Stay the hell out of the Caucasus, that's a nightmare.

Where is there to go? North Africa possibly, but realistically no.

Balkans is the limit as I see it.

Croatia, Montenegro, Serbia et al.

djpbarry

O'Morris wrote: »

Because Turkey is not a European country.

Geographically, that part of Turkey west of the Bosphorus is part of Europe.

O'Morris wrote: »

It's an Asiatic, Muslim country with a culture that's foreign to the Christian culture of Europe.

Is it? Turkish culture is totally foreign to the rest of Europe? It’s not that long ago that the whole of south-eastern Europe was, along with modern Turkey, part of the Ottoman Empire. Surely many cultural similarities remain?

O'Morris wrote: »

Europe already has serious problems in integrating Muslims...

Does it? My wife's from a Muslim background and she seems to be doing just fine.

O'Morris wrote: »

...and so granting free movement to 70 million Muslim Turks is hardly going to do much to further the goal of European integration.

You are aware that Tukey is a secular country, aren't you?

O'Morris wrote: »

I agree with Valery Gistang De Valera...

I don't.

cabinteelytom

Reductio ad absurdam. Can the EU expand for ever?
Ukraine, Russia, North Africa, China. At some point will there be a country, desirous of entry, which meets 'the criteria', which will be told 'No'? The last time such a thing happened was ,I believe to Britain in 1968.
It is the current intention of the EU to have no internal border checks, to add to the four freedoms (of people, goods, capital and services) a large number of 'rights' in the CFR to 'everyone', to 'workers', and to 'citizens of member countries'. The expanded EU is an exercise in curbing the powers of the nation states , empowering individuals against the states, enabling millions of people to swirl round a vast space of europe and asia, and empowers a very small number of apparatchiks, the President and the High Commissioner for Foreign Affairs (with some inadequate oversight by elected heads of government) to wield the huge economic power of the Union for the 'greater good of humanity' (as they would see it.)
If it was merely a trading block in which every country competes by the same fair rules on a level playing field an enlarged EU would be an uncontroversial 'good thing'.

dresden8

djpbarry wrote: »

You are aware that Tukey is a secular country, aren't you?

Yes it is. A country in thrall to its military to keep it secular. I suggest you look at the map and look at Turkey's Western modern Europan area and then look at its backward Eastern area.

http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11632799

irish_bob

djpbarry wrote: »

Geographically, that part of Turkey west of the Bosphorus is part of Europe.
Is it? Turkish culture is totally foreign to the rest of Europe? It’s not that long ago that the whole of south-eastern Europe was, along with modern Turkey, part of the Ottoman Empire. Surely many cultural similarities remain?
Does it? My wife's from a Muslim background and she seems to be doing just fine.
You are aware that Tukey is a secular country, aren't you?
I don't.

why would an intellgient individual ( no im not being sarcastic) such as yourself ask,is europe having difficulty integrating muslims ?

ChocolateSauce

I support unlimited EU membership, but under strict conditions. I'm not going talk about Lisbon, but I will say I saw this deadlock coming, and I thought that we should have done the constitution before the eastern 10 joined in 2004.

I think before we let anyone else in, we must get rid of the vetos. 27 nations, each with a veto, is a joke. I support Turkey joining, but only if a number of things are done.

1. The country must remain secular.
2. The freedom to criticise Turkishness, the Turkish nation and the genocide must be enshrined in law.
3. The freedom to wear headscarfs must be allowed.

I support eventual membership for all other European countries. Russia might be a problem. Even if it wanted membership, it just might be too big. The solution to that problem would be to dissolve the Russian Federation and let the states join on their own merits individually.

Of course that's looking very far into the future. It certainly won't happen within the next 40 years.

I would also support membership of non-European countries. How about commonwealth countries, for example? If Russia joined, Japan would only be a few miles away, so why not them? Of course you'd have to start calling it the United States of Earth by then.

Scofflaw

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

I support unlimited EU membership, but under strict conditions. I'm not going talk about Lisbon, but I will say I saw this deadlock coming, and I thought that we should have done the constitution before the eastern 10 joined in 2004.

I think before we let anyone else in, we must get rid of the vetos. 27 nations, each with a veto, is a joke. I support Turkey joining, but only if a number of things are done.

1. The country must remain secular.
2. The freedom to criticise Turkishness, the Turkish nation and the genocide must be enshrined in law.
3. The freedom to wear headscarfs must be allowed.

I support eventual membership for all other European countries. Russia might be a problem. Even if it wanted membership, it just might be too big. The solution to that problem would be to dissolve the Russian Federation and let the states join on their own merits individually.

Of course that's looking very far into the future. It certainly won't happen within the next 40 years.

I would also support membership of non-European countries. How about commonwealth countries, for example? If Russia joined, Japan would only be a few miles away, so why not them? Of course you'd have to start calling it the United States of Earth by then.

I believe the usual term is New World Order.

cordially,
Scofflaw

nhughes100

I don't support Turkey joining the EU but I think the geographical argument is somewhat mute, after all Georgia wants to join NATO, (that would be North Atlantic treaty organisation!!)

djpbarry

dresden8 wrote: »

I suggest you look at the map and look at Turkey's Western modern Europan area and then look at its backward Eastern area.

I am well aware of Turkey’s problems and I never said that their membership should be unconditional – they should obviously have to meet the same criteria as every other member state.

irish_bob wrote: »

why would an intellgient individual ( no im not being sarcastic) such as yourself ask,is europe having difficulty integrating muslims ?

I thought it was a rather general statement, implying that all (or most) Muslims have difficulty integrating into European states. I’m sure there are immigrants who have difficulty integrating into <insert European country here>, irrespective of religious beliefs.

In the context of Turkey joining the EU (which is very unlikely to happen any time soon); as I’m sure most posters know, most Turks are not hard-line religious. The largest Islamist party in Turkey (The Felicity Party) received just 2.34% of the popular vote in the 2007 general election; to put that in perspective, that’s nearly three times less than the percentage of first-preference votes that Sinn Féin received in the Irish general election of the same year.

WooPeeA

sink wrote: »

The British Eurosceptic press have a huge influence over here now. Things are only going to get worse, pretty soon we'll be just as ignorant as the UK.

http://www.irishtimes.com/focus/2008/lisbondocument/index.pdf

British Eurosceptic press is a garbage. Nothing more but lies.

O'Morris wrote: »

Because Turkey is not a European country. It's an Asiatic, Muslim country with a culture that's foreign to the Christian culture of Europe. Europe already has serious problems in integrating Muslims and so granting free movement to 70 million Muslim Turks is hardly going to do much to further the goal of European integration.

I agree with Valery Gistang De Valera who said that Turkey's entry into the EU would mean the end of Europe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giscard

Indeed. What's next after Turkey? Saudi Arabia? Indonesia? China?

Let's keep it European.

dresden8 wrote: »

Turkey is a modern secular government. But..........

It's not modern secular republic. Did you know that they put your religion into your documents and National ID? There's two options: Muslim or None. No other to choose of religion.

I have a friend from Turkey and he told me that, as an atheist, he wanted to remove the religion from his ID, so came to the office and asked about it.. They were sending him to the end of queue for whole day until he resigned.

diddley

djpbarry wrote: »

I thought it was a rather general statement, implying that all (or most) Muslims have difficulty integrating into European states. I’m sure there are immigrants who have difficulty integrating into <insert European country here>, irrespective of religious beliefs.

And it's not general to say that you think they integrate well because your wife did?

Educate yourself about other European countries and I think you'll find its Muslims who are most unlikely to integrate.
Take hundreds of thousands of Irish Catholics from 1950's Ireland and bring them to modern-day Ireland and they most likely would not integrate either.

Scofflaw

WooPeeA wrote: »

It's not modern secular republic. Did you know that they put your religion into your documents and National ID? There's two options: Muslim or None. No other to choose of religion.

I have a friend from Turkey and he told me that, as an atheist, he wanted to remove the religion from his ID, so came to the office and asked about it.. They were sending him to the end of queue for whole day until he resigned.

Hmm. I invite you to try getting a child into an Irish school as an atheist, getting married or buried with any kind of ceremony as an atheist (in the case of Donegal, getting buried at all), doing business as an open atheist - and, indeed, filling in the Irish Census form. The Dáil starts each session with a prayer, our Constitution reserves a special place for the Christian God, we don't allow abortion on religious grounds. This is a Christian country, but most people no more see that than a fish sees water.

cordially,
Scofflaw

WooPeeA

I have no experience with those things, although I never hide my "religion" which is agnosticism if people asking. And never had any problems anywhere in Europe after saying who I am.

IMO it's bad thing to put religion into law.. Europe should stay secular, no matter is it catholic, protestant or orthodox country. Religion usually build unneeded walls between different societies and cultures, block science and education. In my opinion, religion should be "kicked out" of politics as well as from science and keep existing in people's hearts, like it does today.

I believe in secularism and equality, don't have to agree with me.


That's one of the reasons why I don't see Turkey in EU.

Scofflaw

WooPeeA wrote: »

I have no experience with those things, although I never hide my "religion" which is agnosticism if people asking. And never had any problems anywhere in Europe after saying who I am.

IMO it's bad thing to put religion into law.. Europe should stay secular, no matter is it catholic, protestant or orthodox country. Religion usually build unneeded walls between different societies and cultures, block science and education. In my opinion, religion should be "kicked out" of politics as well as from science and keep existing in people's hearts, like it does today.

I believe in secularism and equality, don't have to agree with me.

That's one of the reasons why I don't see Turkey in EU.

By the same token, we shouldn't have been allowed in in 1973, and Northern Ireland should be outside entirely. We have allowed in several strongly religious societies at various stages, except that they were Christian ones...

cordially,
Scofflaw

ChocolateSauce

I can add a bit more about Turkey. I've been to Istanbul, and I can attest that this city of 11.3 million people is thoroughly westernised. I know the rest on the country is not so much. Istanbul has unisex public baths, a thriving gay scene, and mosques that do not make women wear the headscarf when inside. I'd say Warsaw is more conservative than Istanbul.

Anyone who is conscious of the cultural differences between Dublin and the countryside can imagine the difference between Istanbul and the rest of Turkey, though, and the east part of the country is so ultra-nationalist as to be akin to religious fanaticism.

PHB

Why does geography matter? Just because some random geographer back in the day decided this was and wasn't in Europe means we should base our political decisions on it?
The question of Turkey just like any other country is a purely cost-benefit one.

WooPeeA

I wish that was only geographical difference..

Pride Fighter

O'Morris wrote: »

Because Turkey is not a European country. It's an Asiatic, Muslim country with a culture that's foreign to the Christian culture of Europe. Europe already has serious problems in integrating Muslims and so granting free movement to 70 million Muslim Turks is hardly going to do much to further the goal of European integration.

I agree with Valery Gistang De Valera who said that Turkey's entry into the EU would mean the end of Europe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giscard

So lets kick out Finland and Hungary for speaking an Asiatic language. Turkey is a great nation and it should join the European community, a precondition should be the reunification of Cyprus and if that can happen I see no problem.