Waste Of Naval Service resources

eroo

Why are there now 2 Naval vessels off the coast of Mayo??They are babysitting the 'Shell to Sea' crowd,when they should be patrolling our territorial waters!What a waste!!!!!!!!

Yet more money wasted on those protesters!:mad:

dresden8

eroo wrote: »

Why are there now 2 Naval vessels off the coast of Mayo??They are babysitting the 'Shell to Sea' crowd,when they should be patrolling our territorial waters!What a waste!!!!!!!!

Yet more money wasted on those protesters!:mad:

Or wasted on Shell. Are they expecting USS Cole type suicide bombers in speed-boats?

Del2005

dresden8 wrote: »

Or wasted on Shell. Are they expecting USS Cole type suicide bombers in speed-boats?

Shell are only doing a job and have had equipment damaged by the protesters. If you are going to work and know someone is out to damage you or your equipement you'd call the Gardai also and you'd be entitled to protection also.

As for suicide bomders, I'd say they're more worried about the crusties getting in the way of work boats and people being drown. There's proberly still loads of Gardai up there still who could be out patrolling our streets making our towns safer.

ex_infantry man

don,t them boggers realise that shell would be creating employment in there area!!!!!!especially when times are hard

diverdriver

A lot of the 'boggers' do realise this and are in favour of the facility. The problem is that a local minority have recruited the professional protestors to do their dirty work.

The Navy isn't wasted. Their job is to protest vital strategic interests. I think the gas pipeline qualifies on that score.

Tenger

diverdriver wrote: »

The problem is that a local minority have recruited the professional protestors to do their dirty work.

Damn those crustie tree huggers!!!!!

concussion

I can see it now - if there was no NS presence and the crusties managed to do whatever it is they're were looking to do -
"Where were the navy when we needed them - off harassing innocent Wexford fishermen....mutter mutter....Joe Duffy...."

dresden8

Agreed, the navy would be much better off harpooning Joe Duffy.

Fyr.Fytr

1 can do the job, the other one can patrol our seas and do its job of intercepting wepons, drugs and other contraband. 1 customs vessel cannot police all of our seas by itself, considering the vessel and crew are unarmed

eroo

There is no need for any vessels imo.The Garda Water Unit have enough boats on scene.

cushtac

eroo wrote: »

There is no need for any vessels imo.The Garda Water Unit have enough boats on scene.

1. what experience are you basing this on?

2. how do you know how many Garda boats are at the scene?

3. has it not occured to you that the NS would not be at the scene if they had not been requested in the first place?

concussion

Eight arrested over Shell protests
Thursday, 4 September 2008 23:03

Gardaí have made a number of arrests in Co Mayo this evening following further protests over preparatory works for the laying of the controversial Corrib gas pipeline.

The arrests were made at Glengad Beach where it is planned to bring ashore the pipeline which will link the Corrib gas field and a €300 million refinery which is being built nine kilometres inland at Bellenaboy.

At about 7pm opponents of the project took part in another demonstration with kayaks and afterwards there were scuffles between the protestors and security staff and gardaí.

The eight people arrested have been taken to Bellmullet Garda Station.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0904/shell.html

eroo

cushtac wrote: »

1. what experience are you basing this on?

2. how do you know how many Garda boats are at the scene?

3. has it not occured to you that the NS would not be at the scene if they had not been requested in the first place?

Well I wouldn't count protesters in very small inflatable boats and individually swimming as a massive threat.Neither did a local councillor who felt there was no need to waste more resources on these protests.

Well,from what I saw on news footage at least 2 of their boats are there.So 2 boat loads of Gardai against 8 protesters in wetsuits,sounds more than adauqate(sp?).Also,there are quite a lot of boats being operated by private security firm.

Requested by who?AGS or Government?

Also,if they requested the NS,why did they not request the Army to provide security inland?

cushtac

eroo wrote: »

Well I wouldn't count protesters in very small inflatable boats and individually swimming as a massive threat.Neither did a local councillor who felt there was no need to waste more resources on these protests.

Neither you or the local councillor are qualified to make that assessment. There's also the safety of the protestors to consider, if they're going to take to the sea in small boats there's a risk to their lives which has to be mitigated against.

eroo wrote: »

Well,from what I saw on news footage at least 2 of their boats are there.So 2 boat loads of Gardai against 8 protesters in wetsuits,sounds more than adauqate(sp?).Also,there are quite a lot of boats being operated by private security firm.

There's a surprise, you're basing everything on what you've seen in the media. How do you know those boats aren't working shifts & the footage caught the change over? How many people can the Garda boats safely carry? bearing in mind that room would have to be left for anyone they take out of the water. And how many Gardai, in your expert opinion, are required to safely arrest 8 people?

eroo wrote: »

Requested by who?AGS or Government?

The goverment doesn't request ATCP.

eroo wrote: »

Also,if they requested the NS,why did they not request the Army to provide security inland?

The obvious answer is because there's enough Gardai to provide security on land, but not enough Gardai trained in water operations to provide it at sea.

eroo

cushtac wrote: »

Neither you or the local councillor are qualified to make that assessment. There's also the safety of the protestors to consider, if they're going to take to the sea in small boats there's a risk to their lives which has to be mitigated against.



There's a surprise, you're basing everything on what you've seen in the media. How do you know those boats aren't working shifts & the footage caught the change over? How many people can the Garda boats safely carry? bearing in mind that room would have to be left for anyone they take out of the water. And how many Gardai, in your expert opinion, are required to safely arrest 8 people?



The goverment doesn't request ATCP.



The obvious answer is because there's enough Gardai to provide security on land, but not enough Gardai trained in water operations to provide it at sea.

So you still don't think having 2 Naval vessels out of a total fleet of 8 on patrol isn't a waste of resources!?There will most likely nearly always be at least 1,possibly 2,Naval vessels docked in Haulbowline at any given time due to repairs,crew changes or security.At the moment,that would mean there may be at most 4 or 5 vessels patrolling territorial waters 3 times the size of Ireland.So that means large parts of our waters are not being patrolled.That leaves drugs/weapons smugglers free to enter European waters.It also allows for illegal fishing to take place,furthering the stranglehold on decent Irish fishermen's livelihoods.

we have a tiny Navy for the waters we have. expand the navy! Should have done it years ago.

marco murphy

eroo wrote: »

Why are there now 2 Naval vessels off the coast of Mayo??They are babysitting the 'Shell to Sea' crowd,when they should be patrolling our territorial waters!What a waste!!!!!!!!

Yet more money wasted on those protesters!:mad:

I don't see the problem. Give them something to do.

In my opinion

The Navy should be there. The role of the Navy is to ATCP as well as patrol the seas. The law must be upheld. I'm sure the Super in Belmullet asked for a Naval presence he would not have specified the size of deployment, that would be a Naval decission.

Where AGS do not have the expertise, trained manpower or resources they get relevent help from the DF be it an EOD team a naval vessel or an air corps helicopter etc etc.

Just because rent a mob arrive does not mean this state should stand by and allow them dictate to us how we harvest our resources! My Goverment is paid by my taxes to run my country with my taxes as it sees best for the whole population of my country. Fact!

A crowd of crusties should not be allowed to dictate how we do or do not do things.

My opinion!

cushtac

eroo wrote: »

So you still don't think having 2 Naval vessels out of a total fleet of 8 on patrol isn't a waste of resources!?There will most likely nearly always be at least 1,possibly 2,Naval vessels docked in Haulbowline at any given time due to repairs,crew changes or security.At the moment,that would mean there may be at most 4 or 5 vessels patrolling territorial waters 3 times the size of Ireland.So that means large parts of our waters are not being patrolled.That leaves drugs/weapons smugglers free to enter European waters.It also allows for illegal fishing to take place,furthering the stranglehold on decent Irish fishermen's livelihoods.

How is using the NS to preserve law & order and safeguard life & property a waste of resources?

The level of naval involvement at the scene would have been determined by those in charge of the incident, if the NS had that much of an objection to two of their vessels being at the site they wouldn't have been there.

eroo

cushtac wrote: »

How is using the NS to preserve law & order and safeguard life & property a waste of resources?

The level of naval involvement at the scene would have been determined by those in charge of the incident, if the NS had that much of an objection to two of their vessels being at the site they wouldn't have been there.

Unless instructed to do so by MforD.

cushtac

eroo wrote: »

Unless instructed to do so by MforD.

Either provide proof that the Minister of Defence decides on the exact level and make up of DF assets on ACTP duties or stop waffling.

eroo

cushtac wrote: »

Either provide proof that the Minister of Defence decides on the exact level and make up of DF assets on ACTP duties or stop waffling.

Well how can you prove otherwise?What is to say he doesn't?Obviously he would have DF/DoD advisor's,but ultimately the buck stops with him.

I'm not disputing that the NS weren't requested.I just think it's a waste of resources,seeing as Ireland's coastline is already under patrolled.Customs have one cutter for our waters.The Air Corps have 2 Casa planes that are used for fisheries patrol,and you can bet 1 of them will be on the ground for servicing,or involved in military training at any given time.That leaves the Navy with the most responsibility,and rightly so.However,the NS is so under resourced as it is,without taking away 2 of their fleet to babysit protesters in dinghy's and on surfboards.

cushtac

eroo wrote: »

Well how can you prove otherwise?What is to say he doesn't?Obviously he would have DF/DoD advisor's,but ultimately the buck stops with him.

Wrong, the buck stops with the CoS. The minister does not have operational control of the DF, only control of the department. You really need to stop digging a hole for yourself, go back & study the chain of command again - the minister isn't on it.

eroo wrote: »

I'm not disputing that the NS weren't requested.I just think it's a waste of resources,seeing as Ireland's coastline is already under patrolled.Customs have one cutter for our waters.The Air Corps have 2 Casa planes that are used for fisheries patrol,and you can bet 1 of them will be on the ground for servicing,or involved in military training at any given time.That leaves the Navy with the most responsibility,and rightly so.However,the NS is so under resourced as it is,without taking away 2 of their fleet to babysit protesters in dinghy's and on surfboards.

You can't dispute the fact that the NS were requested because they wouldn't have been there otherwise. People with a hell of a lot more experience in these matters than you, and with a greater appreciation of what the NS has to do, decided that the two vessels were required to adequately cover the site, so they obviously don't agree with your opinions. The fact that you called it 'babysitting' shows you know absolutely nothing about dealing with protests.

eroo

cushtac wrote: »

Wrong, the buck stops with the CoS. The minister does not have operational control of the DF, only control of the department. You really need to stop digging a hole for yourself, go back & study the chain of command again - the minister isn't on it.

You can't dispute the fact that the NS were requested because they wouldn't have been there otherwise. People with a hell of a lot more experience in these matters than you, and with a greater appreciation of what the NS has to do, decided that the two vessels were required to adequately cover the site, so they obviously don't agree with your opinions. The fact that you called it 'babysitting' shows you know absolutely nothing about dealing with protests.

Well,maybe I chose the wrong wording by calling it 'babysitting'.It wasn't to be taken literally as what the NS are doing there.I know full well that that is not what is required for protests.

I agree they may have been requested,regardless of by who.I just think that it is unnecessary to deploy 2 Naval vessels to monitor a small group of protesters,thus leaving our coastline even more accessible to organised crime gangs and terrorist groups..I can't imagine 2 Royal Navy vessels being deployed to monitor protesters at a gas terminal/pipe site.The police would most likely be mobilised to deal with.Maybe all of this highlights the need for the Garda Water Unit to be expanded.

In my opinion

No need to expand the Garda water unit. There are enough agencies with the competence on water. What we need is more Divisional Gardai. We have lots of specialist units and not enough to respond to 999 calls or deal with prolonged protests like Erris.

The Western Region is at full stretch policing the shell to sea and also dealing with routine policing in addition to other intellegence led operations like Castlerea and the Cannibas factories and Galway and the explosives to name just two.

The NS are doing what they should be doing. In addition a naval vessel by its nature can accomadate pers., work as a command loc., prevent movement, canalise movement, and its very pressence can prevent.

Finally if weather turns bad and protesters need to be rescued give me Naval experience everyday.

The reality is the Flag Officer deploys as he sees fit, holds a reserve and carries out all tasks asigned to him. Thats why he holds the rank and why he is paid what he's paid. You will find he is right!

My Opinion

cushtac

eroo wrote: »

I agree they may have been requested,regardless of by who.I just think that it is unnecessary to deploy 2 Naval vessels to monitor a small group of protesters,thus leaving our coastline even more accessible to organised crime gangs and terrorist groups..I can't imagine 2 Royal Navy vessels being deployed to monitor protesters at a gas terminal/pipe site.The police would most likely be mobilised to deal with.Maybe all of this highlights the need for the Garda Water Unit to be expanded.

There's no 'may' about it, they had to have been requested (by the civil authorites, not the minister of defence as you implied) if they were there. Considering you know very little, other than what you get from the news, about policing or defence matters I doubt very much you're right about how the UK would handle things.

cL0h

Irish consumers are paying international market rates to Shell for our own gas. Shell paid nothing for the rights to mine it. What's the point in letting them extract it. Leave it there!

eroo

cushtac wrote: »

There's no 'may' about it, they had to have been requested (by the civil authorites, not the minister of defence as you implied) if they were there. Considering you know very little, other than what you get from the news, about policing or defence matters I doubt very much you're right about how the UK would handle things.

We'll just agree to disagree.

badabinbadaboom

At least they wont be harrasing Irish fishermen

concussion

concussion wrote: »

I can see it now - if there was no NS presence and the crusties managed to do whatever it is they're were looking to do -
"Where were the navy when we needed them - off harassing innocent Wexford fishermen....mutter mutter....Joe Duffy...."

badabinbadaboom wrote: »

At least they wont be harrasing Irish fishermen

:rolleyes:

Zuiderzee

Jesus, leave your preconceptions at the door. Just because crusties are involved in the protest, dont mean they are wrong - even a broken clock is right twice a day.

This is such a load of armchair admiral, right wing ****e.

If Shell were in the UK, then support vessels they pay for would provide security for an exclusion zone issued via the Dept of Marine through an M notice.

cushtac wrote: »

The obvious answer is because there's enough Gardai to provide security on land, but not enough Gardai trained in water operations to provide it at sea.

Great to see the Guards still being used as Shells private security service - now along with the NS at sea, at our expense as tax payers.

However, this is an operational decision by the Naval Service, and if they decide to station vessels there, for whatever reason (SOLAS, M Notice or protection of property for a large multinational - a job which in the UK they would need to hire support vessels for)

ex_infantry man wrote: »

don,t them boggers realise that shell would be creating employment in there area

There will be very little benefit to most Irish people apart from a few jobs in maintainence in the area.
There was no provision made, as there was in Norway, the UK and the Netherlands for basing jobs in industries like standby and supply vessels or basing support vessels out of Ireland, or the use of Irish registered vessels.

It is a cluster**** in that department, especially with Frank Fahy we got a worse deal than Nigeria, the worlds 4th biggest producer of oil, who like our current crop of TD's allow Shell to shaft the local population, provide no wealth to the immeadiate area, or all that much to the nation as a whole.

In my opinion wrote: »

Just because rent a mob arrive does not mean this state should stand by and allow them dictate to us how we harvest our resources! My Goverment is paid by my taxes to run my country with my taxes as it sees best for the whole population of my country. Fact!

A crowd of crusties should not be allowed to dictate how we do or do not do things.

Goes to show how little you actually know - you as a citizen get damn all from this deal, whereas the Norwegian state gets 50% of the revenue, we got, via FF, FG and Shell, 500 Punts, thats all the state is entitled to.
And I wonder who you keep re-electing.
Stop making such thick gombeen remarks without knowing what you are talking about - it just makes you look stupid


Its a typical knee jerk reaction - all the protestors are crusties.
What about the Rossport 5 ?? No dredlocks there!

We let rapists out of jail early for lack of space, and we send citizens to jail for protesting!!!

Those 'crusties' are using their brains, standing up for their rights and dont have their head stuck up their ass

If your council decided to run a high pressure, experimental sewage pipeline through your property, I wonder how long it would take for the NIMBY factor to kick in?

timmywex

Its nice for it to be portrayed in the news how easy it is to sumgle drugs into this country! With 2 ships in mayo, and one down with the asgard2, its so easy atm!

Zuiderzee

Let Shell protect their own assets, they dont contribute to the revenue commissioners, they dont employ the Irish, and made massive profits from high oil prices.

Let the NS get back to work on drug interdiction, SOLAS, SAR, Fishery protection etc.

In my opinion

Zuiderzee wrote: »

Jesus, leave your preconceptions at the door. Just because crusties are involved in the protest, dont mean they are wrong - even a broken clock is right twice a day.

This is such a load of armchair admiral, right wing ****e.

Great to see the Guards still being used as Shells private security service - now along with the NS at sea, at our expense as tax payers.

However, this is an operational decision by the Naval Service, and if they decide to station vessels there, for whatever reason (SOLAS, M Notice or protection of property for a large multinational - a job which in the UK they would need to hire support vessels for)



There will be very little benefit to most Irish people apart from a few jobs in maintainence in the area.

Goes to show how little you actually know - you as a citizen get damn all from this deal, whereas the Norwegian state gets 50% of the revenue, we got, via FF, FG and Shell, 500 Punts, thats all the state is entitled to.
And I wonder who you keep re-electing.
Stop making such thick gombeen remarks without knowing what you are talking about - it just makes you look stupid


Its a typical knee jerk reaction - all the protestors are crusties.
What about the Rossport 5 ?? No dredlocks there!

We let rapists out of jail early for lack of space, and we send citizens to jail for protesting!!!

Those 'crusties' are using their brains, standing up for their rights and dont have their head stuck up their ass,

I wonder how long it would take for the NIMBY factor to kick in?

I fail to see the NIMBY relevence. Majority of protesters are not from the Barony of Erris, the County of Mayo or even the province of Connaught.

I as a citizen will have a gas connection, my town is now piped thanks to the fact that resources will be coming ashore as are most major towns in Co Mayo.

Were Rossport 5 not sent to jail for contempt of court??

What rapists are let out early because of lack of space? Which prison?

More resources wasted last night an EOD team and I presume the MSG (Stand to/ Patrol whatever name it has in Dublin) out with it to deal with a device at shell head office.

The protest as far as I can see is taken over by Shinners, their ilk and non Mayo people with a mad teacher on hungerstrike Lord God

Zuiderzee

NIMBY - is the pipeline going under or near your house???


People like you are sooo quick to say 'Shiiiinnnnnnnneeeeerrrrssssss' about anything on the left.
'Shinners and their ilk' Christ how small minded you are.
I guess If their not related to you and not from your village I guess they are outsiders, strangers, blowins!! With a mentality like that Im surprised you comment on what the NS - representing the whole Island has a right, duty or orders to do.

Why not buy a rib and an outboard, sort all them crusties out yourself - or get Shell to sponsor you doing it?

You pay for that gas - regardless of where it comes from - the money goes to Shell - woo hoooo - along with the cost of the guards and the NS - who, if you pay taxes, also pay for - doing what shell should pay for themselves.

They refused to stop protesting, as ordered by a court, whats next mein fuher

As for prisoners, including rapists getting out early,

BUY A NEWSPAPER

Shell are screwing you and me right now, but you are too stupid to realise it.

Like I said earlier - think before you type

Hagar

That's one all. Let's leave it at that.

We've left the Military aspect and are now in the realms of Politics.

Please free to start a fresh thread there if you wish.


Thread closed.