Service?

dok71

Bought a new Passat last year and its now in need of a service.
Do I take it back to the dealer and pay through the nose or do it on the cheap.
Are service histories ever really looked at?

Biro

dok71 wrote: »

Bought a new Passat last year and its now in need of a service.
Do I take it back to the dealer and pay through the nose or do it on the cheap.
Are service histories ever really looked at?

If you do it "on the cheap" your warranty might be void. If you use genuine VW parts and the recommended oil, then you'd be in a better position for sure. Any time I service a car myself I always buy the genuine parts from a dealer. An oil filter is only €7 or €8 from a main dealer, so why buy spurious?
If your Passat is a diesel, you need to stick to the recommended oil, and that's dear. €50 for 4.5 litres!

Mr.David

Dealer


Dont even consider getting it done on the cheap!! service history is hugely important i wouldnt buy a car without it. especially on a new car. the money you save on the service will be small compared with the devaluation of the car. plus you dont know the quality of the work, if oem parts were fitted and you will invalidate your warranty.

this is not something you should consider at all. take it to your dealer.

p.s. i have no affiliation whatsoever with VAG dealerships!!

JoeySully

i would goto main dealer until the warranty runs out. there may be recalls and updates that you wont be advised about from an independent. having said that there may be recalls that you wont be advised about by VW either :rolleyes:

-Chris-

Service histories are definitely looked at and do matter to the trade-in value of a car and the ease of re-selling it.

stretchaq

i wouldnt think of goin to a maindealer

hers an example Audi A4 diesel
timing belt and waterpump change at 45k dealer €1300
Local mechanic (who works for VW) €450

Saving €850 get this done twice saving €1700

people have a misconception that a service history has to be filled in by a main dealer the truth in fact any mechanic who is qualified can do this work and fill in the service history i would reckon in 100,000 miles i would save up to €3000 not going to main dealers!!!!! you think i would lose that much selling it because the service histiory is not an audi garage!!!! people wake up and notice your being screwed!!!!!!!!!!!!

-Chris-

Imagine you're buying a 3 year old car from a main dealer. It's a nice Passat with 60,000Kms on it. Decent spec, clean car, one owner.

Pricing seems fair compared to other dealers, no bargain but not a rip-off either.

The car should have had 2 services at least at this stage. There are no stamps in the service book. The salesperson says they were told that there is a history with a "local guy", but there's no documentation for it either way.

Would you:
-be more comfortable if there was a stamped history there?
-buy the car and get it serviced immediately, just in case?
-disregard the car and buy the similar model with a proper service history that's in the competitor dealer?
-wonder if the car was ever serviced at all?
-wonder if any recalls were done to the car, if they were required?
etc. etc.

Depending on the age of the car, a full set of stamps can make a car much easier to sell and will definitely add value to the car.

Take my advice and Stretchaq's advice and see if you can work out if there's a break even point (bearing in mind that by the time you're replacing the timing belt for the second time you're well outside warranty period anyway).

If you need 3 services between buying the car and trading it in, what do you think you'll save compared to the risk to your resale value?

Mr.Diagnostic

Mr.David wrote: »

Dealer


Dont even consider getting it done on the cheap!! service history is hugely important i wouldnt buy a car without it. especially on a new car. the money you save on the service will be small compared with the devaluation of the car. plus you dont know the quality of the work, if oem parts were fitted and you will invalidate your warranty.

this is not something you should consider at all. take it to your dealer.

p.s. i have no affiliation whatsoever with VAG dealerships!!

I would agree that a service history is important especially on such a new car but its not only the dealer who can provide a service history. Unfortunately the majority of people think like you do so it is probably better to get a main dealer to do it, purely to pander to the ill informed.

Non dealer history and the fitment of non oem parts will not effect the warranty. As long as the work has been done by a qualified mechanic and the parts fitted are of equal quality to oem then the warranty is protected under the EU BER (block exemption regs)
Part suppliers will provide certification that their parts are oem quality if asked to do so.

Your point about the quality of the work is pure rubbish. It is in fact possible to get both good and bad quality workmanship in every garage, dealer and independent.

mickdw

Yes if you buy genuine parts and get a registered garage to do it and fill in the service hitory, you cannot invalidate the warranty. If fact, if I was buying a used car, I would be delighted to see a service book stamped by independent with receipt for main dealer parts and receipt for work attached for each service. That way, you know its genuine and you will know if the proper oil has been used (well bought at least). Also people who avoid the dealer tend to get services that bit earlier as there are not afraid of the cost.

Mr.Diagnostic

AudiChris wrote: »

Imagine you're buying a 3 year old car from a main dealer. It's a nice Passat with 60,000Kms on it. Decent spec, clean car, one owner.

Pricing seems fair compared to other dealers, no bargain but not a rip-off either.

The car should have had 2 services at least at this stage. There are no stamps in the service book. The salesperson says they were told that there is a history with a "local guy", but there's no documentation for it either way.

Would you:
-be more comfortable if there was a stamped history there?
-buy the car and get it serviced immediately, just in case?
-disregard the car and buy the similar model with a proper service history that's in the competitor dealer?
-wonder if the car was ever serviced at all?
-wonder if any recalls were done to the car, if they were required?
etc. etc.

Depending on the age of the car, a full set of stamps can make a car much easier to sell and will definitely add value to the car.

Take my advice and Stretchaq's advice and see if you can work out if there's a break even point (bearing in mind that by the time you're replacing the timing belt for the second time you're well outside warranty period anyway).

If you need 3 services between buying the car and trading it in, what do you think you'll save compared to the risk to your resale value?

Just to play devils advocate.

What if you change your scenario so the car has a stamped independent history?

-Chris-

If there's a documented history then I'd be happy.

My order of preference:
1) Main dealer history, all invoices kept, all neatly arranged in a folder
2) Service book full of main dealer stamps (although I'm aware these can be faked), no invoices
3) Indy stamps and receipts for official parts
4) Indy stamps only
5) No stamps, "I got it done with a local guy"
6) No stamps, "My dad's a mechanic and services it for me/I service my own cars"

Also, in the case of a car being outside warranty and a big job needs doing, I know there's a much greater chance of goodwill from the distributor if there's main dealer stamps.

I know indy mechanics who'll run rings around a franchised mechanic (and a lot of franchised services are performed by apprentices while the hot-shots are troubleshooting anyway). I know non-oem parts are as good as oem as long as they're made to the same specifications.

However, I can guarantee the quality of oem parts, I can't guarantee the quality of spurious parts.

Mr.Diagnostic

AudiChris wrote: »

Also, in the case of a car being outside warranty and a big job needs doing, I know there's a much greater chance of goodwill from the distributor if there's main dealer stamps.

Good point, that’s very true.

AudiChris wrote: »

I know non-oem parts are as good as oem as long as they're made to the same specifications.

However, I can guarantee the quality of oem parts, I can't guarantee the quality of spurious parts.

As I said above, it is possible to get access to certs for non oem.

It is also possible in a lot of cases to buy the exact same as oem from a factor. Parts made by the same company, on the same production line as the oem parts.
It is also possible in a few cases to buy non oem parts that are of better quality than oem as well as being certified.

-Chris-

Mr.Diagnostic wrote: »

As I said above, it is possible to get access to certs for non oem.

It is also possible in a lot of cases to buy the exact same as oem from a factor. Parts made by the same company, on the same production line as the oem parts.
It is also possible in a few cases to buy non oem parts that are of better quality than oem as well as being certified.

Absolutely, I have no issue with non-OEM parts if they can be proven to be the right parts. You mention that a lot of spurious parts are made by the same company as the OEM parts, but you also know yourself that a lot of the reason parts are spurious is because they aren't produced to the same tolerances as the OEM parts.

As someone who's answering the question "are service histories ever really looked at?" and the implicated question of whether a lack of a service history will affect the second hand value of the car, I'm drawing attention to the psychology and thought processes of the future owner of the car in question.
Joe Soap trusts dealer histories more than indy history, OEM parts more than spurious, and when they're sinking €20-30k of their own money into a depreciating asset they don't like there to be questions about the car's history or providence.

Darragh29

Mr.Diagnostic wrote: »

Good point, that’s very true.



As I said above, it is possible to get access to certs for non oem.

It is also possible in a lot of cases to buy the exact same as oem from a factor. Parts made by the same company, on the same production line as the oem parts.
It is also possible in a few cases to buy non oem parts that are of better quality than oem as well as being certified.

Isn't it a pity that some people don't just seem able to grasp the fact that Audi/VW or any vehicle manufacturer doon't make oil filters, oil, air filters, sprak plugs, fuel filters, etc, etc???

Darragh29

AudiChris wrote: »

Absolutely, I have no issue with non-OEM parts if they can be proven to be the right parts. You mention that a lot of spurious parts are made by the same company as the OEM parts, but you also know yourself that a lot of the reason parts are spurious is because they aren't produced to the same tolerances as the OEM parts.

Chris, I don't know where you heard the above myth from but I have to post here to dismiss it completely. OEM parts are OEM parts, spruious parts are parts that are not OEM parts. The term "genuine part", is a false description used by franchsied dealers to mislead people into believing that unless it is bought from a franchised outlet, it is a spurious part. What a genuine part really is, is an OEM part. The only difference between an OEM part and a genuine part is (A) the box that it comes in and (B) the price that you pay for it. The notion that an OEM manufacturer such as Hella or Valeo will manufacture a bulb, headlamp unit or a clutch assembly to one standard for Renault and another standard for supply through its own sales channel is just nonsense. I'm only clearing this up because people using the forum have enough problems with myths, lies and falsehoods perpetuated by franchised dealerships regarding OEM/spurious/genuine part quality and the differences between them, without the debate becoming unnecessarily confused by the above contribution...

-Chris-

Darragh29 wrote: »

Chris, I don't know where you heard the above myth from but I have to post here to dismiss it completely. OEM parts are OEM parts, spruious parts are parts that are not OEM parts. The term "genuine part", is a false description used by franchsied dealers to mislead people into believing that unless it is bought from a franchised outlet, it is a spurious part. What a genuine part really is, is an OEM part. The only difference between an OEM part and a genuine part is (A) the box that it comes in and (B) the price that you pay for it. The notion that an OEM manufacturer such as Hella or Valeo will manufacture a bulb, headlamp unit or a clutch assembly to one standard for Renault and another standard for supply through its own sales channel is just nonsense. I'm only clearing this up because people using the forum have enough problems with myths, lies and falsehoods perpetuated by franchised dealerships regarding OEM/spurious/genuine part quality and the differences between them, without the debate becoming unnecessarily confused by the above contribution...

Sorry Darragh, I understood (not from training or information from any franchised dealer) that companies such as Bosch (or Hella or Valeo or Webasto etc.) manufactured parts as OEM parts for the car makers, branded as such.
I also understood that if they are making parts that aren't to the same tolerance as the requirement for OEM, they repackage these as own brand parts to be sold through motor factors etc. Obviously the spurious parts wouldn't be defective or poorly made, just not to OEM specs.

My motivation has nothing to do with my feelings towards franchised dealer servicing, more stating a point of view as I understood it. I can't remember where I heard that information and I'd have to work to back the point up. I will defer to your expertise. I'm not looking to mislead anyone.

Mr.Diagnostic

AudiChris wrote: »

Sorry Darragh, I understood (not from training or information from any franchised dealer) that companies such as Bosch (or Hella or Valeo or Webasto etc.) manufactured parts as OEM parts for the car makers, branded as such.
I also understood that if they are making parts that aren't to the same tolerance as the requirement for OEM, they repackage these as own brand parts to be sold through motor factors etc. Obviously the spurious parts wouldn't be defective or poorly made, just not to OEM specs.

Quite the contrary, Darrahg is 100% correct. In fact I have had cases where the oem and the factor part as so identical that where the oem one is stamped with the manufacturers mark the factor one has visible grinding marks.

-Chris-

Cool.

So taking this all into account, do we recommend the OP maintains a dealer service history for the first while or not?

Run_to_da_hills

dok71 wrote: »

Bought a new Passat last year and its now in need of a service.
Do I take it back to the dealer and pay through the nose or do it on the cheap.
Are service histories ever really looked at?

You are a fool if you do a cheap back street service on a year old car. For starters you will void any warrenties, you may just toss away the service history book and You will also devalue the car by 1000's when you go to sell it. Main dealer until the 3 Year / 100,000 mile warrenty expires or for any timing belt job.

Darragh29

AudiChris wrote: »

Cool.

So taking this all into account, do we recommend the OP maintains a dealer service history for the first while or not?

Chris, I'm not having a go at ya, this whole misunderstanding about the quality of replacement parts, (and leading on directly from this, the difference between an aftersales experience between an indy garage and a franchised dealership), goes to the very centre of the debate regarding the quality of service that can be provided by indy garages.

Franchchised dealers have for years been arguing, falsely in my opinion, that indy garages by default are take shortcuts on quality when it comes to parts because they use "spurious parts", which comes back to the current thread here about servicing, whether that should be at a main dealer or an indy garage, or at all. The truth of the matter is that there is no material difference between an OEM quality service component available from a good motor factor and the equivilant part you would get from a main dealer... If I service your car, I use the same bulk engine oil as a main dealer, I use the same OEM quality parts as a main dealer. What you were told could only be described as nonsense...

Darragh29

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

You are a fool if you do a cheap back street service on a year old car. For starters you will void any warrenties, you may just toss away the service history book and You will also devalue the car by 1000's when you go to sell it. Main dealer until the 3 Year / 100,000 mile warrenty expires or for any timing belt job.

Obviously a troll. The suggestion that any garage that isn't franchised dealer is a "cheap back street service" operation, is offensive. Also, thread is factually incorrect and baseless, as per Block Exemption Rules which prohibit vehicle manufacturers from interfering with warranty obligations on the basis of a consumer exercising their right to use independent service providers to have their vehicle servicing & maintenance requirements met. The poster doesn't seem to be aware that many "franchised" dealerships don't even run their own service operations...

-Chris-

Darragh29 wrote: »

Chris, I'm not having a go at ya,

I didn't think you were Darragh, I was probably told what I was told by someone who was told the same thin by someone else (if you know what I mean). This is how these misunderstandings perpetuate.

Darragh29 wrote: »

this whole misunderstanding about the quality of replacement parts, (and leading on directly from this, the difference between an aftersales experience between an indy garage and a franchised dealership), goes to the very centre of the debate regarding the quality of service that can be provided by indy garages.

Absolutely, and this debate should be being held out in the public where it'll inform Joe Soap rather than on a "motor enthusiasts" forum. Unless this perception is changed, people will continue to put more weight, and therefore value, on a franchised dealer service history.

Darragh29 wrote: »

Franchchised dealers have for years been arguing, falsely in my opinion, that indy garages by default are take shortcuts on quality when it comes to parts because they use "spurious parts", which comes back to the current thread here about servicing, whether that should be at a main dealer or an indy garage, or at all.

I have a lot of respect for good indy mechanics and wouldn't believe that they would skimp on the quality of their parts to save a few quid.
Good mechanics have pride in their work and realise their reputation is what gets them ongoing business. They wouldn't endanger their customers' cars with sub-quality parts.

Darragh29 wrote: »

The truth of the matter is that there is no material difference between an OEM quality service component available from a good motor factor and the equivilant part you would get from a main dealer... If I service your car, I use the same bulk engine oil as a main dealer, I use the same OEM quality parts as a main dealer.

Again, my concern, which my advice to the OP is based on, is that the future buyer of their car will place less value in the OP's car if it doesn't have a dealer service history.

Darragh29 wrote: »

What you were told could only be described as nonsense...

Fair 'nuff, and I've already deferred to you on this point.

Mr.Diagnostic

AudiChris wrote: »

Cool.

So taking this all into account, do we recommend the OP maintains a dealer service history for the first while or not?

In my first post on this thread I said that the OP probably should, but only because the general public regard the dealerships as the ultimate.

In reality this is not true and as time goes on more and more retail customers are learning this for themselves. Over approx the last year I find more and more newish cars in independent garages for service work. I have often seen plenty of independently serviced cars having no issue with warranty claims at the dealers.
I think the next 12 to 18 months will see a huge change in attitudes.

-Chris-

Mr.Diagnostic wrote: »

I think the next 12 to 18 months will see a huge change in attitudes.

You're probably right - the increase in people willing to source their own cars from the UK rather than purchase through the franchised dealer network is an indication of a change in their feeling of independence from the standard channels of doing things.
More and more people are willing to sell their cars too.

I'd expect this to filter to maintenance etc. as well.

I think this is a symptom of the rise of the internet and the increase in the amount of information available to people. You no longer need to rely on the salesperson to inform you of the features and benefits (and methods of acquisition) of the things you're looking to purchase.
The internet also gives you power with regards to selling your own car rather than relying on trading the car in or the old methods of Buy & Sell/newspaper classifieds.

There'll be a painful period of transition for the Irish dealers until they adapt and learn to compete better through service - their monopoly position is being eroded daily.

Mr.Diagnostic

It already is painful for the dealer/manufacturer hence there have been a lot of changes made by the manufacturers in the last few years that were designed to try and keep cars out of the independent workshops. (subject for another thread maybe)
If the independent sector ever managed to get organised the dealers could be in real trouble.

Darragh29

Mr.Diagnostic wrote: »

In my first post on this thread I said that the OP probably should, but only because the general public regard the dealerships as the ultimate.

In reality this is not true and as time goes on more and more retail customers are learning this for themselves. Over approx the last year I find more and more newish cars in independent garages for service work. I have often seen plenty of independently serviced cars having no issue with warranty claims at the dealers.
I think the next 12 to 18 months will see a huge change in attitudes.

+1. I think consumers are starting to see the light. The day where you can put your hand out for 140 Euro an hour labour and the rest of it I think is coming to an end... I really feel sad at how the industry has gone, it's a depressing place, where you have a huge gulf or devide in aftersales. You have loads of main dealers who charge innordinately more for what they do, you have loads of small indy operators who are old timers and at times are out of their depth, and you have a big gap in the middle which should be packed full of highly competent and efficient indy operatorsm but it isn't, because at both ends of the extreme, you have a "fast buck" mentality, and in the middle you have a pretty sparse group of high quality indy operators, who seem to be struggling to get their message across.

Darragh29

Mr.Diagnostic wrote: »

It already is painful for the dealer/manufacturer hence there have been a lot of changes made by the manufacturers in the last few years that were designed to try and keep cars out of the independent workshops. (subject for another thread maybe)
If the independent sector ever managed to get organised the dealers could be in real trouble.

The main problem with the erosion of dealer credibility is down to the lies they have been propagating for the last few years, that basically you are risking the value of your car if you go anywhere other than a main dealer. This is just wrong, how can you say this and not be in breach of the law??? I think some people have been conditioned by main dealers to the point where they have no choice in their own mind. It will take a very strong indy brand, which we don't have here, to take a wrecking ball to the main dealer argument that you have to go to them or else your warranty is out the window and your car is devalued.

Christ they even have a franchised salesrep here pushing the argument for them, sorry Chris, but I think you might have been beamed up to the great big main dealer spaceship in the sky for those little implants! :D:D

Guy:Incognito

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

or for any timing belt job.

I've seen you post that a couple of times and there really isnt a need for it. There are plenty of independent specialists for various makes that will do the job just as good or better than a main dealer who may well be an apprentice with the senior guy watchign from a dstance (not always the case but it is possible so I cant see why a main dealer is nessecariyl better)

I was given a recommendation a couple of weeks back on here for an independent Citroen guy near Clonee, went to him and got the job I was lookign for done cheaper and it's spot on. The guy in the Citroen main dealer couldnt even find the part on his system.

I'm getting the guy to do my timeing belt in a coupel of weeks. He's quoted €220. I might give a main dealer a ring just to compare. (It's a petrol Xantia btw)

-Chris-

Darragh29 wrote: »

The main problem with the erosion of dealer credibility is down to the lies they have been propagating for the last few years, that basically you are risking the value of your car if you go anywhere other than a main dealer. This is just wrong, how can you say this and not be in breach of the law??? I think some people have been conditioned by main dealers to the point where they have no choice in their own mind. It will take a very strong indy brand, which we don't have here, to take a wrecking ball to the main dealer argument that you have to go to them or else your warranty is out the window and your car is devalued.

I thought Ford were going to use their acquisition of Kwik Fit a few years ago to move the model from full service dealerships to the hub-and-spoke model of large central sales areas and smaller, more numerous service establishments.

I'm also surprised that an independent chain of unfranchised repairers hasn't emerged, it's a definite business opportunity. I thought that we'd have seen one of the UK networks setting up to compete in Ireland too.

Darragh29 wrote: »

Christ they even have a franchised salesrep here pushing the argument for them, sorry Chris, but I think you might have been beamed up to the great big main dealer spaceship in the sky for those little implants! :D:D

I've no allegiances to anyone while I'm on these boards, and I don't claim to represent any point-of-view other than the Republic of Chris .
I'm stating things as I see them and I'm open to correction it I'm wrong.

No implants here!

Run_to_da_hills

Darragh29 wrote: »

Obviously a troll. The suggestion that any garage that isn't franchised dealer is a "cheap back street service" operation, is offensive. Also, thread is factually incorrect and baseless, as per Block Exemption Rules which prohibit vehicle manufacturers from interfering with warranty obligations on the basis of a consumer exercising their right to use independent service providers to have their vehicle servicing & maintenance requirements met. The poster doesn't seem to be aware that many "franchised" dealerships don't even run their own service operations...

The OP is talking about a Volkswagen, a car which would have a well equiped backup service in almost every major town in the country. A Volkswagen main dealer will use genuine Volkswagen parts, the correct tools for the job and experienced Volkswagen mechanics.

If the OP intends to cheap scate with back street labour and parts he could end up having his car equipped with bogus imported parts to cut costs. Should the engine blow up because a cheap pattern oil filter desintergrated or a timing belt snapped because it was a cheap knock off of an original the OP has not a leg to stand on in court should he try to claim a warrenty that was voided.

Darragh29

AudiChris wrote: »

I thought Ford were going to use their acquisition of Kwik Fit a few years ago to move the model from full service dealerships to the hub-and-spoke model of large central sales areas and smaller, more numerous service establishments.

AudiChris wrote: »

I'm also surprised that an independent chain of unfranchised repairers hasn't emerged, it's a definite business opportunity. I thought that we'd have seen one of the UK networks setting up to compete in Ireland too.

It's a pity that we have to look across the pond for this... I tried it and I have to say that I personally found many people too brainwashed by main dealers for the concept to work here at the moment. What will motivate some people who challenge their own current subscriptions is the current economic climate. When the chips are down and money is tight, you see people starting to make decisions based on value. Maybe this is why people in recent years have come to the conclusion that only the main dealer is good enough, because they had more money than they knew what to do with. Now with the tightening of credit and less money available, you'll see the rip off dealerships being challenged. Sadly there is no sign of it happening just yet, contacts I have in the industry are telling me that service depts are holding the show together for main dealers at the moment, with sales having gone through the floor.

AudiChris wrote: »

I've no allegiances to anyone while I'm on these boards, and I don't claim to represent any point-of-view other than the Republic of Chris .
I'm stating things as I see them and I'm open to correction it I'm wrong.
No implants here!

Yeah, I accept that, but you've stated things on this thread, contrary to the above, not as you've seen them but as you've been told them (you did say this myth started off with someone where you work), which I think has been very innacurate, especially with regard to OEM suppliers making types of parts, a "genuine" standard and an also a lesser "OEM" standard. I don't want to fall out with you, but this type of completely baseless and wrong commentry is nothing less than offensive to me, because it creates a culture of fear and ignorance amongst consumers...

Mr.Diagnostic

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The OP is talking about a Volkswagen, a car which would have a well equiped backup service in almost every major town in the country. A Volkswagen main dealer will use genuine Volkswagen parts, the correct tools for the job and experienced Volkswagen mechanics.

If the OP intends to cheap scate with back street labour and parts he could end up having his car equipped with bogus imported parts to cut costs. Should the engine blow up because a cheap pattern oil filter desintergrated or a timing belt snapped because it was a cheap knock off of an original the OP has not a leg to stand on in court should he try to claim a warrenty that was voided.

You are so far wide of the mark its untrue.

Darragh29

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The OP is talking about a Volkswagen, a car which would have a well equiped backup service in almost every major town in the country. A Volkswagen main dealer will use genuine Volkswagen parts, the correct tools for the job and experienced Volkswagen mechanics.

If the OP intends to cheap scate with back street labour and parts he could end up having his car equipped with bogus imported parts to cut costs. Should the engine blow up because a cheap pattern oil filter desintergrated or a timing belt snapped because it was a cheap knock off of an original the OP has not a leg to stand on in court should he try to claim a warrenty that was voided.

Here's the facts:

VW fit an SKF timing belt during the manufacture of the vehicle.

If I go to any reputable motor factor, I cam buy an SKF timing belt kit.

I can buy the same tools as a VW mechanic, the same Snap-On van that calls into my van calls into the VW main dealer in town. You obviously have been too brainwashed by main dealer spin to be able to contribute here neutrally. I think you're a troll to be honest, you don't understand the facts...

Darragh29

Mr.Diagnostic wrote: »

You are so far wide of the mark its untrue.

+1, obviously a sales rep with a company car who doesn't have to worry about servicing & maintenance costs...

Bearcat

AudiChris wrote: »

Service histories are definitely looked at and do matter to the trade-in value of a car and the ease of re-selling it.

i beg to differ. I have had loads of top end decent motors over the years and on trading in, it made not a jot of difference on the trade in price. On a mechanical note the cars were in much better steed than had they gone though a main dealers programme. Just my opinion and fact re the trade in values.

Darragh29

Bearcat wrote: »

i beg to differ. I have had loads of top end decent motors over the years and on trading in, it made not a jot of difference on the trade in price. On a mechanical note the cars were in much better steed than had they gone though a main dealers programme. Just my opinion and fact re the trade in values.

Yeah, it also doesn't explain how I've had to many customers in for a service and when I advise them that they "might" need a timing belt, they have no way of checking whether or not it's been done already...

Run_to_da_hills

Darragh29 wrote: »

Here's the facts:

VW fit an SKF timing belt during the manufacture of the vehicle.

If I go to any reputable motor factor, I cam buy an SKF timing belt kit.

I can buy the same tools as a VW mechanic, the same Snap-On van that calls into my van calls into the VW main dealer in town. You obviously have been too brainwashed by main dealer spin to be able to contribute here neutrally. I think you're a troll to be honest, you don't understand the facts...

Thats fine if you trust your local mechanic is going to fit a SKF timing belt, what about the place that skimps and fits somethinmg else? Wasn't there a mandate from Toyota not so long ago about knock off poor quality "Toyota" branded oil filters being sold and fitted. I believe Toyota themselves were stung by a batch and had to do a recall on a number of cars that they had serviced, Would a local garage do a similar recall?

If I get any work done on my Ford Transit by anyone other than a main dealer I supply the service parts.

Darragh29

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Thats fine if you trust your local mechanic is going to fit a SKF timing belt, what about the place that skimps and fits somethinmg else? Wasn't there a mandate from Toyota not so long ago about knock off "Toyota" branded oil filters being sold and fitted. I believe Toyota themselves were stung by a batch and had to do a recall on a number of cars that they had serviced, Would a local garage do a similar recall?

If I get any work done on my Ford Transit by anyone other than a main dealer I supply the service parts.

Well any garage that lets you supply your own parts in an ammature operation. I speak for myself and I know the vast majority of indy garage operators who I personally know that feel the same, if you want to buy your own parts, find another mechanic. You obviously do not trust the person/business that works on your car, which is not right in my opinion. You have to have trust with your mechanic. I've had customers in the past that I was being honest with and I got the impression that they were getting a notion in their head that they didn't believe the advice I was giving them, and I made up an excuse not to do the job for them, usually just pawn them off to the main dealer, because I don't want them as a customerm because doing the work and standing over it is hard enough...

I wouldn't actually be able to find a poor quality timing kit if I went looking for one. SKF have the market pretty wrapped up. You see you don't understand the way the industry works. I'm a mechanic. Do you really think I want the hassle, headache, expense and embarrassment of fitting a poor quality part that subsequently causes a problem and exposes me to THOUSANDS of Euro's of damages??? I've never met a mechanic who doesn't worry about a timing belt job coming back to bite them in the arse, such is the cost of rectifying this if it goes wrong. You need to go for a pint with some mechanics and find out how they think. I never met a mechanic who would fit a cheap clutch or timing kit.

The mechanics I know who let you supply your own parts are the mechanics with the lowest skillset in the industry. The reason the mechanics I know, who let customers supply their own parts, only do so because if there is a problem after the parts have been fitted, it's your problem because you supplied the parts...

Darragh29

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Wasn't there a mandate from Toyota not so long ago about knock off poor quality "Toyota" branded oil filters being sold and fitted. I believe Toyota themselves were stung by a batch...

I think that puts to bed your argument. What was a Toyota main dealer doing buying these parts???

Run_to_da_hills

Darragh29 wrote: »

I think that puts to bed your argument. What was a Toyota main dealer doing buying these parts???

I saw the A4 sized poster on a wall at the parts dep in Tom Hogans of Ennis a few years back. On the notice it pointed out telltail marks on the filter. Counterfeiting is down to such a fine art now anyone can be fooled but at least if Toyota fitted these bogus parts and they failed they would have to honour their work.

http://www.toyotamakati.com.ph/parts-and-accessories/anti-counterfeit-campaign.php

L1011

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

but at least if Toyota fitted these bogus parts and they failed they would have to honour their work.

Doesn't matter who fitted them *at all*. You don't suddenly lose all ability to go after someone for fraud because they don't have a glass palace out front and some shiney signs.

I will be getting my car dealer serviced until its (very long) warranty runs out and after that, it'll be back to whatever I can do + Advanced Pitstop and an indy I trust. If he badly fitted a timing belt I'd have just as much comeback as if the main dealers did.

And as goes 'genuine' parts, a certain dealer in the midlands (of the only brand I drive) doesn't use manufacturer genuine parts...

-Chris-

Bearcat wrote: »

i beg to differ. I have had loads of top end decent motors over the years and on trading in, it made not a jot of difference on the trade in price. On a mechanical note the cars were in much better steed than had they gone though a main dealers programme. Just my opinion and fact re the trade in values.

My pre-owned manager will ask me if a trade-in has a service history with it when they're valuing it for me. My answer to that question will inform the value they arrive at.

That's a fact.

Darragh29 wrote: »

AudiChris wrote: »

I've no allegiances to anyone while I'm on these boards, and I don't claim to represent any point-of-view other than the Republic of Chris .
I'm stating things as I see them and I'm open to correction it I'm wrong.

No implants here!

Yeah, I accept that, but you've stated things on this thread, contrary to the above, not as you've seen them but as you've been told them (you did say this myth started off with someone where you work), which I think has been very innacurate, especially with regard to OEM suppliers making types of parts, a "genuine" standard and an also a lesser "OEM" standard. I don't want to fall out with you, but this type of completely baseless and wrong commentry is nothing less than offensive to me, because it creates a culture of fear and ignorance amongst consumers...

I started with a premise - that having a fully stamped up service history helps the second hand value of a car. I stand by this.

I then said that I trusted OEM parts more than non-OEM as I understood non-OEM were (potentially) of lower quality. I've been corrected on that and I've accepted the correction.
I've accepted the correction in my replies rather than editing my post as I'd rather reflect the conversation than have people think I was hiding my misunderstanding or back-pedalling.

I specifically said I hadn't heard this information from a franchised dealer (i.e. where I work).

I'm sorry you're offended that my "completely baseless and wrong commentry" is perpetuating a "culture of fear and ignorance amongst consumers", even though I've clearly rescinded my comments.

I think you're taking me up wrong, and you're using very strong words while doing it.
I think you have a chip on your shoulder regarding franchised dealers and seeing I'm an employee of one, you're negatively biased towards my comments due to this prejudice.

I will not be taking part in this thread any more as I believe I have contributed as much as I can at this point.

Mr.Diagnostic

AudiChris wrote: »

I will not be taking part in this thread any more as I believe I have contributed as much as I can at this point.

I think your input to this thread has been frank and honest.

Don’t take it so serious, sure everyone knows independent mechanics take the p1ss all the time

unkel

Great thread. I've just included a link to this thread in the charter. Hopefully it will help change peoples perceptions once they realise that you do not need to have your car serviced at the main dealer to keep your warranty because of the Block Exemption Rules. Or even use original manufacturers parts.

Darragh29 wrote: »

the lies they have been propagating for the last few years, that basically you are risking the value of your car if you go anywhere other than a main dealer

The Block Exemption Rules have an operational / technical impact. You can get your car serviced by an independent using non-OEM parts and you'll still be fully covered by the manufacturers warranty. There's more to the "value" of the car than objective criteria though and I think that's the main point AudiChris has been making in this thread. If the people think that a car is worth less without a main dealer service history, then the car is worth less. Simple. Best you can do is try to re-educate people and your posts and others on this thread will definitely help

Biro

Darragh29 wrote: »

Well any garage that lets you supply your own parts in an ammature operation. I speak for myself and I know the vast majority of indy garage operators who I personally know that feel the same, if you want to buy your own parts, find another mechanic. You obviously do not trust the person/business that works on your car, which is not right in my opinion. You have to have trust with your mechanic. I've had customers in the past that I was being honest with and I got the impression that they were getting a notion in their head that they didn't believe the advice I was giving them, and I made up an excuse not to do the job for them, usually just pawn them off to the main dealer, because I don't want them as a customerm because doing the work and standing over it is hard enough...

I wouldn't actually be able to find a poor quality timing kit if I went looking for one. SKF have the market pretty wrapped up. You see you don't understand the way the industry works. I'm a mechanic. Do you really think I want the hassle, headache, expense and embarrassment of fitting a poor quality part that subsequently causes a problem and exposes me to THOUSANDS of Euro's of damages??? I've never met a mechanic who doesn't worry about a timing belt job coming back to bite them in the arse, such is the cost of rectifying this if it goes wrong. You need to go for a pint with some mechanics and find out how they think. I never met a mechanic who would fit a cheap clutch or timing kit.

The mechanics I know who let you supply your own parts are the mechanics with the lowest skillset in the industry. The reason the mechanics I know, who let customers supply their own parts, only do so because if there is a problem after the parts have been fitted, it's your problem because you supplied the parts...

Not all mechanics think like you, in fact very few do. That's why I'm skeptical until I'm proven wrong. I'm the customer, that's my perogitive. If I insult you with that attitude, then you're easily insulted.
Also, I've seen "spurious" oil filters from motor factors for a certain car be completely different to the one that came from the main dealer recommended by the manufacturer. Different shape and size. So while you're in the know regarding the good and bad parts, you're giving the impression that it's impossible to buy crap car parts. That's as bad advice as what you accused Chris of giving. In every category in every product there is more than enough absolute shyte in circulation ready to be bought by people who are none the wiser.

Mr.Diagnostic

Biro wrote: »

Not all mechanics think like you, in fact very few do. That's why I'm skeptical until I'm proven wrong. I'm the customer, that's my perogitive. If I insult you with that attitude, then you're easily insulted.
Also, I've seen "spurious" oil filters from motor factors for a certain car be completely different to the one that came from the main dealer recommended by the manufacturer. Different shape and size. So while you're in the know regarding the good and bad parts, you're giving the impression that it's impossible to buy crap car parts. That's as bad advice as what you accused Chris of giving. In every category in every product there is more than enough absolute shyte in circulation ready to be bought by people who are none the wiser.

In my opinion Darragh overstated it somewhat by suggesting that any garages who would allow a customer to supply their own parts are amateur in nature. Some garages will allow it and some wont. They all their own reasons for this.

My own take on it is that I wont allow it, in most cases. One of my reasons for this is that it effects my bottom line. If I can enhance my bottom line and at the same time look after the customer then everyone is a winner.
I am usually in a better position to source the right parts at the right price. I have both equipped myself with the tools to allow me do this and researched the subject. The tools I refer to are part info databases and the research is to establish the suitability, certification and quality of various parts. A lot of parts suppliers don’t have access to enough parts info to be able to source the best deals. Considering the investment I have put into this why should I give that away by allowing a customer to supply parts?
The customer will very often lose out by supplying his own parts anyway so if I supply them we both benefit. Another aspect is the vat situation, again a loss for the retail customer who buys his own.

It is of course possible to buy some cheap poor quality parts. That is in itself a good reason for the customer to avoid sourcing his own parts. Can you really expect the average customer to know which parts are quality or not?
If a mechanic were to fit poor quality parts that were supplied by the customer and they later failed, who would get the blame?

I have seen this very subject debated on a UK based professional mechanics forum. The general consensus was to raise the labour cost to cover lost parts revenue. The main reason stated for this was not to gain the extra revenue but to stop the customer doing it again.

This is very much an issue of trust. I can understand the reasons why there is mistrust of garages but there is also a lot trust out there too. Like everything else, you don’t read about the good nearly as often as the bad.
Someone else posted about standing over a mechanic to make sure he poured in the oil that the customer had supplied. Imagine how that would make the mechanic feel. It would be next to impossible to have a cordial productive business relationship with a customer like that. My answer to something like that would be to go and find a different mechanic in a different garage to stand over.

Darragh29

Biro wrote: »

Not all mechanics think like you, in fact very few do. That's why I'm skeptical until I'm proven wrong. I'm the customer, that's my perogitive. If I insult you with that attitude, then you're easily insulted.
Also, I've seen "spurious" oil filters from motor factors for a certain car be completely different to the one that came from the main dealer recommended by the manufacturer. Different shape and size. So while you're in the know regarding the good and bad parts, you're giving the impression that it's impossible to buy crap car parts. That's as bad advice as what you accused Chris of giving. In every category in every product there is more than enough absolute shyte in circulation ready to be bought by people who are none the wiser.

Maybe I'm hanging around with the wrong greasemonkeys, but as I've said above, there is absolutely no benefit whatsoever for a mechanic to buy cheap/spurious parts, it's hard enough to first of all get the work, secondly to get the job done successfully, which means the correct parts and a competent pair of hands to fit them, then get paid when the job is done. Chris, I was a bit over the top in my last few posts and I wasn't trying to rise you, the issue is a serious one for me because I feel that the main dealer establishment has been taking advantage of people in your position to manipulate the motoring public and create a climate of fear amongst people who drive cars. Unfortunately the indy garage community might have not done themselves any favours over the recent years by not keeping up their image when main dealers started building shiny glasshouses for themselves, so the perceived gap on the part of the consumer between competent and uncompetent service providers appeared to widen.

Can someone tell me where I can get a spurious timing belt kit for any popular car??? I genuinely don't believe there is a market for this...

-Chris-

Darragh29 wrote: »

Chris, I was a bit over the top in my last few posts and I wasn't trying to rise you, the issue is a serious one for me because I feel that the main dealer establishment has been taking advantage of people in your position to manipulate the motoring public and create a climate of fear amongst people who drive cars.

I don't think you're deliberately trying to push my buttons Darragh, but again I take umbrage at your words/sentiment.

I'm not here representing any dealer establishment, I make that clear as often as possible.

No one is taking advantage of me. You seem to think that I'm here as a puppet of a motor dealer, an empty shell parroting the dealer party line.
I've been in the motor industry for 9 years.
I've studied engineering in college and I would consider myself pretty technically adept.
My last job before I took up car sales (18 months ago) was as an IT/Systems Manager - a member of the management team in a quite successful and well run SME.
I went into sales because I didn't know how to sell or negotiate well and I felt it was an important skill for future career development.
I'm really quite intelligent too.

But I'm not here to justify myself. I try to contribute honestly. I've given my opinion on this thread and I've no way of developing my opinion beyond "people place value on dealer service histories when buying cars that are (give or take) less than 4 years old". I stand by that.

Darragh29

AudiChris wrote: »

I don't think you're deliberately trying to push my buttons Darragh, but again I take umbrage at your words/sentiment.

I'm not here representing any dealer establishment, I make that clear as often as possible.

No one is taking advantage of me. You seem to think that I'm here as a puppet of a motor dealer, an empty shell parroting the dealer party line.
I've been in the motor industry for 9 years.
I've studied engineering in college and I would consider myself pretty technically adept.
My last job before I took up car sales (18 months ago) was as an IT/Systems Manager - a member of the management team in a quite successful and well run SME.
I went into sales because I didn't know how to sell or negotiate well and I felt it was an important skill for future career development.
I'm really quite intelligent too.

But I'm not here to justify myself. I try to contribute honestly. I've given my opinion on this thread and I've no way of developing my opinion beyond "people place value on dealer service histories when buying cars that are (give or take) less than 4 years old". I stand by that.

I contribute honestly as well here Chris and I didn't ask you to justify yourself. I never said that you represent any particular interest here on this forum, but you did make an extremely ill informed comment here on this thread with regard to two apparently different standards of OEM replacement parts. I think that you need to understand that the rules that you have to play by in order to carry out your responsibilities, and by that I mean the minimum requirements of your position, might mean that you have to enforce a policy of "only main dealer service history is really taken into account". I'm not blaming you on being part of this agenda, you have a job to do and like all of us, you have to do things and say things in order to remain onside in relation to your employment and fulfill the requirements of your position.

You have to say and believe that a consumer should place a greater importance on "main dealer service histories", because this is a requirement of your job/position. So when a customer turns up looking for a trade in and he/she bought the car originally from your sales outlet and has had the brass neck to take his/her service work elsewhere to his local reliable indy garage, that your employer now has to teach that customer a lesson, that they should come back to where they bought the car for servicing and maintenance work, because if they don't/won't, the car is worth less now for a trade in, and so the game continues for another generation and we have another consumer now swearing blind that they will never go anywhere other than the main dealer for a service again.

In all of this, has there been any evidence offered whatsoever that the vehicle was not properly serviced??? Was there any evidence offered that the quality of the parts used can be called into question??? Was there any evidence that the mechanic was not qualified, even though we know that the lads who are doing servicing work in main dealerships are typically first and second year apprentices??? This intrasigence is simply wrong and belongs in the last century.

I'm trying to be decent when I say this, but I don't think you've been in the industry long enough to understand the huge vested interests that exist in the industry, the type of illegal practices that dealer principals will utilise to turn a handy buck and the lengths and depths that these individuals will go to, in order to protect what they percieve to be their own private market.

It's not the customer that demands a main dealer service history, it's your sales manager and if a customer doesn't tick the box, "well guess what, knock a grand off their trade in and dat'll teach em..." I don't expect you to agree with any of this obviously...

-Chris-

Darragh29 wrote: »

I don't expect you to agree with any of this obviously...

Let's agree to disagree then, and move on.

CC

knifey_spoonie

@ Darragh

I do get the impression that you are very much against the main dealer, which is all well and good, but for arguement sake do you mind me asking how much you charge for a full service IE oil, air, plugs,brake fluid, blubs, wipers

Your idea that we are punishing a customer just because they havent got a FSH is bull, they way its looked at is that if i have FSh i know the has been serviced, if it dont i dont know this, and have to allow for possible excessive ware and tare

And i have seen it where a persons big end has imploded, yet they get there local to service it every 15000klm, they even have recipts, but when he indy inspector comes in he forms the opinion that the car has never been servied, yet the main dealer is considered mean and looses any future business, because the engne fails (with 120000klms), So you given stories of bad things that have happened at franchaise, now ill do the oppisite, and could continue with plenty more

To the OP if for some reason your not happy with going back to where you bought it, go somewhere else, how about trying a different franchaise dealer/ non franchaise dealer, but for the sake of insist on genuine parts and proper oil, and go for somebody who is trusted, and known, so when you come to trade it in the sales person will look at the book and know that the car was maintained properly, in my mind thats just about as good as FSH in main dealer