Government brings forward budget to October

mike65

So badly out of whack are the numbers they've decided to hold the budget on October 14th, so if you were fearing the worst for December batten down the hatches, its going to be even tougher for some of us.

Mike

El Stuntman

the first step into total desperation

thanks fianna fail, I hope people remember that this was totally preventable, self-induced and had very little to do with the 'international circumstances' that Brian and Brian will no doubt trot out as being the cause of the problem

I wouldn't trust these gimps to run a sweetshop

gandalf

So what are they going to do.

National development plan - Bye Bye !!!

Fags & Fuel - easy targets as usual.

Tax rates up - rubbed in with a phrase similars to Charlies "Tighten our belts" from the 80's

Probably more motor taxes on top of the petrol.

Maybe some form of property tax.

Will they capitulate to the public service unions even more when they should be facing them down?

The only silver lining about this is they are in power and will have to try and fix the mess they made and then obviously be made pay when they fail miserably.

dresden8

I don't know why you people who carry on about the state of the economy don't just go off and hang yourselves.

Bitch, bitch, bitch, moan, whine, whine.

miju

I can't emphasise how GLAD I am now the opposition didn't win the last election. If they did they would have been faced with this mess and FF would have been pointing the finger at them saying they don't know what they're doingand blaming the whole thing completely on them.

One things for sure after all their ****e talk about developing the boom / managing the economy it's gonna be ****ing hilarious looking at them trying to actually manage something instead of riding on the coat tails of a world credit bubble for the last 10 years.

Fianna Failure are in deep doo doo

dresden8

miju wrote: »

Fianna Failure are in deep doo doo

Unfortunately they have their huge pensions to cushion the blow. It's us who are fecked.

brianthebard

I should have my grant before this, so I'm not soooo worried. I wonder will there be a large carbon tax or something of that guise? afaik there will be EU fines over our emissions this year won't there? Expect an election within the next 2 years imo.

dresden8

dresden8 wrote: »

I don't know why you people who carry on about the state of the economy don't just go off and hang yourselves.

Bitch, bitch, bitch, moan, whine, whine.

Hey, it's good enough for Bertie Ahern.

How can you get an infraction for quoting the most successful Taoiseach the country ever had?

drunkmonkey

why don't we surprise them a general election....:D

Finna Fail have squanderd all out loot, it's time to kick them out and not pay them a cent more...

dresden8

drunkmonkey wrote: »

why don't we surprise them a general election....:D

Finna Fail have squanderd all out loot, it's time to kick them out and not pay them a cent more...

Yes but they couldn't take the pensions off Neary or Curtin. We're fecked.

oleras

Maybe someone with more economic insight than me can explain why they dont borrow the shortfall for now, such a drastic step seems a bit over the top to me.

It is a budget afterall, how many homwowners have had unexpected bills over the years and had to borrow to get them sorted ?

Its not as if we are in the dodo big time.

Simplistic ? YES.

drunkmonkey

If they borrow the money they won't be able to increace taxes as easily....there going to ride us both ways...

they'll up taxes and borrow money anyway.....

I do dispise the government....there constantly screwing the little guy:mad:

dresden8

oleras wrote: »

Maybe someone with more economic insight than me can explain why they dont borrow the shortfall for now, such a drastic step seems a bit over the top to me.

It is a budget afterall, how many homwowners have had unexpected bills over the years and had to borrow to get them sorted ?

Its not as if we are in the dodo big time.

Simplistic ? YES.

You borrow 3 billion this year.

Next year you borrow 3 billion but have to pay interest on last years 3 billion so you borrow 3.2 billion.

Next year you have to borrow 3.2 billion but you also have to repay interest from the last two years so you end up borrowing 3.8 billion etc.

Unless you sort out your economy in 3 years you've borrowed 10 billion to cover a 3 billion shortfall and you end up raising taxes to pay your interest. Zero investment.

Borrowing is good as an investment, as money to get by it's a disaster.

Bingo. Welcome to the eighties.

genericgoon

We can only wait in anticipation to see where the government wildly swings its axe in desperation(while ignoring places that need a good trim because of special reasons) and where it desperatley looks for places to put huge TAX bumper stickers. Nothing like a recession to prove the incompentency of our politicians. Tbh, I'd almost prefer if the Eurocrats ran the country at this stage.

crocro

gandalf wrote: »

So what are they going to do.

National development plan - Bye Bye !!!

No need to cancel, just long finger every project. And maybe do a few PPPs - Westlink-style.

Fags & Fuel - easy targets as usual.

fuel duty didn't rise in the last budget.

Tax rates up - ... more motor taxes ... petrol...property tax.

problem is that if you raise income tax that's a tax on jobs just when unemployment is rocketing up. if you tax fuel, cars, roads etc then that's a tax on doing business (distribution, sales, customer journeys). So increasing taxes may slow the economy further and fail to raise more revenue.

miju

crocro wrote: »

problem is that if you raise income tax that's a tax on jobs just when unemployment is rocketing up. if you tax fuel, cars, roads etc then that's a tax on doing business (distribution, sales, customer journeys). So increasing taxes may slow the economy further and fail to raise more revenue.

hey rock meet my friend hardplace

turgon

As soon as I finish my collage degree Im out of here. It will be interesting to see the severity of the budget.

nhughes100

I'm amazed nobody has raised the blatantly obvious con that if excise duties are raised(and lets face it they will be) then the rises will be in effect from midnight of the budget which of course gets the government 2 months extra taxes. The best way they can make money is to put a huge tax on anyone leaving the country as there's going to be a lot of them.

It's not hard to save money in this country, today I got two jobs emailed to me from publicjobs.ie for air crash investigators, both of which were around 70-100K per year. You would not believe the payscales some of these nonsense jobs get, I'm a public servant and don't believe in this"public sector pay is to blame for everything" argument but there is so much scope for improvement without hitting the ones at the bottem.

gurramok

Just look at the public sector wage bill nhughes100.

If they raise the excise duty, expect mass smuggling of the old reliables from the north as well as hordes of shoppers heading across the border.

SkepticOne

nhughes100 wrote: »

The best way they can make money is to put a huge tax on anyone leaving the country as there's going to be a lot of them.

It's been done. The airport departure tax which was introduced in the 80's, when large numbers of people left the country in search of jobs, was considered by many at the time to be a tax on emigration.

irish_bob

miju wrote: »

I can't emphasise how GLAD I am now the opposition didn't win the last election. If they did they would have been faced with this mess and FF would have been pointing the finger at them saying they don't know what they're doingand blaming the whole thing completely on them.

One things for sure after all their ****e talk about developing the boom / managing the economy it's gonna be ****ing hilarious looking at them trying to actually manage something instead of riding on the coat tails of a world credit bubble for the last 10 years.

Fianna Failure are in deep doo doo

fianna fail will most likely still be in goverment after the next election and not just because of enda kenny , at heart we irish are all fianna failers , it is hardwired into us , remember , the majority of people in this country dont vote based on issues , they vote based on who there grandfather and his father before him voted for

weve had recessions before and it made no difference to fianna fails prospects

p.s , the public service will be appeased

brianthebard

Please don't say "we Irish" as if you speak for all or even some of us.

jmayo

nhughes100 wrote: »

I'm amazed nobody has raised the blatantly obvious con that if excise duties are raised(and lets face it they will be) then the rises will be in effect from midnight of the budget which of course gets the government 2 months extra taxes. The best way they can make money is to put a huge tax on anyone leaving the country as there's going to be a lot of them.

It's not hard to save money in this country, today I got two jobs emailed to me from publicjobs.ie for air crash investigators, both of which were around 70-100K per year. You would not believe the payscales some of these nonsense jobs get, I'm a public servant and don't believe in this"public sector pay is to blame for everything" argument but there is so much scope for improvement without hitting the ones at the bottem.

nhughes, air crash investigators should not be considered a nonsense job, unilke some of the jobs in public service or indeed within IAA.
They usually have to have a pretty good knowledge and understanding of their subject, at least in other countries, and you don't get good guys if you pay peanuts.

Would you not rather have good people do this job, so that they can get to the bottom of an air accident or would you rather you get the local guard do the job?

BTW I think the way of cutting public sector wage bill is to get rid of some of the employees, starting with the overpaid and overstaffed mid level, then working up and down the ladder. Too many people in our system, particularly health, with no apparent beneift to either their customers or employers i.e. us the taxpayers.

I do agree with you on how taxes come into immediate affect, but outgoings only come at beginning of new year is a con, but so is the level of contribution made by motorists to the exchequer.

sink

Completely OT but air crash investigation is a good example of an expertise that is rarely used but still very necessary. Would it not be better to have an EU wide air crash investigation team thereby using resources more efficiently and reducing smaller countries budgets. After all most of the airline industry is regulated at EU level already.

nesf

drunkmonkey wrote: »

If they borrow the money they won't be able to increace taxes as easily....there going to ride us both ways...

Well, the prevailing economic logic is that you run surpluses in the good times and "small" deficits in the bad times with the view to keeping spending as even as possible while trying to fight inflation in public expenditure. Trying to balance the budget every year isn't a great idea because it means having to ramp up spending in good times and then sharply decrease it in bad times or, even worse, cut down taxes in good times and sharply increase them in bad times (which horribly distorts the labour market and people's ability to plan financially). It seems to be better for economic stability if Government expenditure/taxation isn't changing constantly.

It all comes down to the shortfall and how big it is, borrowing a billion or two isn't a big deal so long as you aren't doing it every year and you run surpluses and cut down that debt when the economy is doing well. We have been running surpluses in recent years and we have cut down on our public debt so we are in a position to borrow, the ESRI is recommended that we do this earlier in the year in order to not cut back on capital expenditure (infrastructure etc), but there needs to be a balance struck between borrowing and reducing deficit spending either by cutting back on spending or raising taxes.

Personally I'd guess that we'll see an attempt to rein in current expenditure for the last few months of the year, an increase in some excise duties and possibly a reining in of some services for next year but I can't see the hatchet coming out too severely on core services this time around. I'd have been surprised if they didn't run a deficit next year (they've already announced that they will). Our public debt is low by the standards of our European neighbours, we are in a position where borrowing could be viewed as a responsible course of action.

The Irish Times article has some details: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/0904/1220372098094.html?digest=1

gurramok

Talk about heads in the sand :mad:

'Tánaiste: 'Government will kickstart the housing market' http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhqlgbcwmhid/rss2/

The Tánaiste is indicating that the Government will be taking steps in the Budget to help the ailing housing market.

The Finance Minister Brian Lenihan announced the decision to bring forward Budget 2009 to October on foot of poor exchequer figures and a rise in unemployment.

He says this will give Ireland a sound base for economic recovery.

Minister Mary Coughlan has said Minister Lenihan has met with representatives of the construction industry to discuss the issue.

"The minister spent a considerable period of time with construction people over the weekend and he will be taking into consideration many of these issues and not just for first-time buyers but for those who need to move on," she said.

You see there, the economy is screwed now even further. Relying on housebuying for a sound economy is voodoo economics.
What about helping industry create export based productive jobs Mary???

Villain

What restrictions do Brussels put on our Borrowing?

Any rise in Income Tax or VAT will simply make things worse, we need the consumers to be spending not saving, if we can ride out this economic storm for the next 2 or 3 years by short term borrowings and cuts in the national pension fund etc I think we can find an economic level that is sustainable.

However if we raise taxes and try to balance the books we could well send ourselves into a nose dive 80's scenario.

drunkmonkey

What's with this New Carbon tax I saw mentioned in the paper today, what have Finna Fail got up their seleve with this tax...

I thought the New VRT regulations was a carbon tax, what are they going to hit next??

Villain

drunkmonkey wrote: »

What's with this New Carbon tax I saw mentioned in the paper today, what have Finna Fail got up their seleve with this tax...

I thought the New VRT regulations was a carbon tax, what are they going to hit next??

It was reported that Carbon tax will not be in this budget the ESRI did a very detailed report on it recenly, have a look on their site. I don't think now is the best time to be introducing a carbon taxi, we need to get the economy stable before we go throwing money at the enviroment

brianthebard

gurramok wrote: »

Talk about heads in the sand :mad:

'Tánaiste: 'Government will kickstart the housing market' http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhqlgbcwmhid/rss2/


You see there, the economy is screwed now even further. Relying on housebuying for a sound economy is voodoo economics.
What about helping industry create export based productive jobs Mary???

Yes this has been annoying me for months now "the housing market is ****ed- I know, lets start up the housing market!" flawless logic from the government, when the market is saturated and there's no demand, why would they continue to put all their eggs in one basket?

mike65

Villain wrote: »

What restrictions do Brussels put on our Borrowing?

Any rise in Income Tax or VAT will simply make things worse, we need the consumers to be spending not saving, if we can ride out this economic storm for the next 2 or 3 years by short term borrowings and cuts in the national pension fund etc I think we can find an economic level that is sustainable.

However if we raise taxes and try to balance the books we could well send ourselves into a nose dive 80's scenario.

We can borrow 3% of GDP, however the ECB won't do anything to stop higher borrowing for capital projects. There should never be borrowing to fund day-to-day spends. That requires a government with balls and resolve to take on the public sector - ah we fupped then.

Mike