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Sub 3 hour Marathon Training Programs
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03-09-2008 4:15pm#1Does anyone know of good Marathon training programs that are suitable for those targetting a sub 3 hour marathon (2:59:59 to be exact)?
I do know the basics (i.e. mix of a long run, pace run, intervals and steady / easy runs each week) but I just want to compare those recommended programs with what I'm doing myself in terms of specifics. For example, what distance intervals to do, recovery times etc.
Or if anyone here who's an experienced marathon runner has their own ideas for training for a sub 3, please share your thoughts.
Thanks.0
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There's no answer to this, as what works for some people doesn't work for others. Going sub-3 depends on a lot of factors - one of which is training plan, but others include running history, previous marathon experience and maybe a small bit of talent. Going sub-3 is more about the speed at which you do the training, rather than the actual content of the training itself (although you have listed some of the important elements).
To put it in context, I'm doing my third marathon this year and looking to go sub-3 (even if it's just 2:59:59). Did 3:26 first time round, using a Hal Higdon Intermediate plan, did 3:06 last time out using Pfitzinger 18 week, up to 55 miles per week plan. Using the same Pfitzinger plan with some minor adjustments (i.e. some 21-22 mile runs) to hopefully go sub-3. However, there may be others doing more involving plans but looking to achieve slower times. It's all about knowing what works for you.
Attached is the Pfitzinger plan.0 -
Peckham hit the nail on the head there - the plans will pretty much be the same, it's the intensity of the training that seperates a 3 hour runner from a 3:30 and so on.
Can't say I really liked the look of that training plan. I know plenty of people swear by them but I wouldn't be a huge fan of it. Some weeks having a day off on a Friday and others running 11 miles. I love having a routine, knowing what days I have off each week, and they don't change from week to week. Also I'd find it hard to focus for that length of time with so few races. I'd try to stick in a some more - at least one half, a 10 mile if there's one about and a couple of 10km or 5 miles.0 -
There's no answer to this, as what works for some people doesn't work for others. Going sub-3 depends on a lot of factors - one of which is training plan, but others include running history, previous marathon experience and maybe a small bit of talent. Going sub-3 is more about the speed at which you do the training, rather than the actual content of the training itself (although you have listed some of the important elements).
To put it in context, I'm doing my third marathon this year and looking to go sub-3 (even if it's just 2:59:59). Did 3:26 first time round, using a Hal Higdon Intermediate plan, did 3:06 last time out using Pfitzinger 18 week, up to 55 miles per week plan. Using the same Pfitzinger plan with some minor adjustments (i.e. some 21-22 mile runs) to hopefully go sub-3. However, there may be others doing more involving plans but looking to achieve slower times. It's all about knowing what works for you.
Attached is the Pfitzinger plan.
Really? So would you say hard work alone is not enough to break 3 hours?
Dublin this year will be my first marathon. I am not running long and I tend to be a very slow runner (most of my training is around 10 minute per mile pace) but I was wondering what would be the best marathon time I have in me.
I dont think Im talented but being young I would have thought 3 hours would be achievable...I would've thought around 2:45 is where the talent is needed.
So what do people reckon is the best someone could expect with hard work alone or would it differ for everyone?0 -
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Stupid_Private wrote: »Can't say I really liked the look of that training plan. I know plenty of people swear by them but I wouldn't be a huge fan of it. Some weeks having a day off on a Friday and others running 11 miles. I love having a routine, knowing what days I have off each week, and they don't change from week to week.
Last year I followed this plan to the exact days, however this year I'm shuffling it up a bit. I follow roughly the same order each week, but not necessarily on the same days. For example, I generally run long on Saturdays and taken Sunday as a day off. Do my speedwork/tempo on Monday with Tuesday as a rest day. Seems to be working so far.Really? So would you say hard work alone is not enough to break 3 hours?
I emphasise the small bit of talent. Some people will never go sub-3, no matter how much/how hard they train, as it's simply not in them. I know of people who run most of the year round and follow marathon plans that are much more demanding than mine in order to break 3:30. That said, the hard work is probably more important than the talent (if that makes any sense!).0 -
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There's no answer to this, as what works for some people doesn't work for others. Going sub-3 depends on a lot of factors - one of which is training plan, but others include running history, previous marathon experience and maybe a small bit of talent. Going sub-3 is more about the speed at which you do the training, rather than the actual content of the training itself (although you have listed some of the important elements).
To put it in context, I'm doing my third marathon this year and looking to go sub-3 (even if it's just 2:59:59). Did 3:26 first time round, using a Hal Higdon Intermediate plan, did 3:06 last time out using Pfitzinger 18 week, up to 55 miles per week plan. Using the same Pfitzinger plan with some minor adjustments (i.e. some 21-22 mile runs) to hopefully go sub-3. However, there may be others doing more involving plans but looking to achieve slower times. It's all about knowing what works for you.
Attached is the Pfitzinger plan.
Regarding that plan:
1. Who is Pete Pfitzinger and what is his background?
2. There doesn't seem to be any interval sessions as I would do them. For example, a 6 x 800m with 1.30 mins recovery i.e. stopping completely for 1.30 mins after each interval. There seems to be 8 miles with 5 x 600m but does that mean a continuous run of 8 miles with a lifting of the pace for 5 x 600m and no recovery at all? That's not an interval session at all but a fartlek run IMHO.
3. There seems to be a lot of long midweek runs (14 miles on a Wed in week 9??) which seems a bit long for a midweek (not your long) run.
4. It doesn't say the pace you should be running on any of the sessions - can you say what the miling pace should be for some of the midweek runs?
5. Its generally very unspecific - what website did you get this on? Maybe he has more detailed information on the plan elsewhere? Do you know?0 -
1. Who is Pete Pfitzinger and what is his background?
Former USA marathon runner - finished top 15 in 1984 and 1988 Olympics (I think). Author of "Advanced Marathoning" - a hugely respected training manual, and worth reading for anyone at any level training for a marathon. He developed these plans in conjunction with Scott Douglas.2. There doesn't seem to be any interval sessions as I would do them. For example, a 6 x 800m with 1.30 mins recovery i.e. stopping completely for 1.30 mins after each interval. There seems to be 8 miles with 5 x 600m but does that mean a continuous run of 8 miles with a lifting of the pace for 5 x 600m and no recovery at all? That's not an interval session at all but a fartlek run IMHO.
It's difficult to look at this plan out of the context of the Advanced Marathoning book (the plan I've posted is really just a quick reference in conjunction with the book), which goes into a huge amount of detail on each type of session. The interval sessions you mention above include recovery after each interval - this can be stopping or jogging, whatever you prefer.3. There seems to be a lot of long midweek runs (14 miles on a Wed in week 9??) which seems a bit long for a midweek (not your long) run.
This is what differs it from other training plans, and believe me pays huge benefits.4. It doesn't say the pace you should be running on any of the sessions - can you say what the miling pace should be for some of the midweek runs?
Anything up to 15 miles is run at "General Aerobic" pace, which is the pace you can hold while at the same time having a conversation - this can vary depending on the training load over the previous few days, fatigue etc. Recovery Runs are at least 15%-20% slower than marathon pace. Long Runs are about 10%-15% slower than marathon pace.5. Its generally very unspecific - what website did you get this on? Maybe he has more detailed information on the plan elsewhere? Do you know?
I got it from the Advanced Marathoning book, which I should really have recommended alongside this! The book is crucial if you want to follow this plan, and recommended even if you don't.
Some background rationale for his training plans is available on his websitehere.0 -
Beaten to the punch... the answers look fairly similar!
I also found that unclear. I'm sure you could do them as either a fartlek or interval on the track. 2 to 3 miles warm up, 5 x 600m with recovery in the region of 1.30 and a warm down of 2 to 3 miles for the interval. Or 5 fartlek burst of around 2 minutes with a 1.30 jog afterwards, again warming up and down.Regarding that plan:
2. There doesn't seem to be any interval sessions as I would do them. For example, a 6 x 800m with 1.30 mins recovery i.e. stopping completely for 1.30 mins after each interval. There seems to be 8 miles with 5 x 600m but does that mean a continuous run of 8 miles with a lifting of the pace for 5 x 600m and no recovery at all? That's not an interval session at all but a fartlek run IMHO.
Nah, not long at all for midweek if you want to get under 3 hours. You should be looking at a midweek run of 13-15 miles.3. There seems to be a lot of long midweek runs (14 miles on a Wed in week 9??) which seems a bit long for a midweek (not your long) run.
True, it doesn't say if runs should be easy or tempo but I'd imagine all other runs besides interval or done at 'easy' pace and the long run on Sunday is done at long run pace. You should generally be able to tell if the pace you're going at is too fast. The mcmillan calculator gves guide lines for what types of run should be done at what pace based on your goal time.4. It doesn't say the pace you should be running on any of the sessions - can you say what the miling pace should be for some of the midweek runs?
I've read a book of his years back. He goes into details in that about what each type of run is for and so on.5. Its generally very unspecific - what website did you get this on? Maybe he has more detailed information on the plan elsewhere? Do you know?0 -
Stupid_Private wrote: »if you want to get under 3 hours. You should be looking at a midweek run of 13-15 miles.
What I find difficult about this, is by doing an interval session Tuesday and a tempo session Thursday, it's hard to get a 13-15mile mid-week run (usually fairly tired and slow on Wednesday, trot around for 8 miles). The interval session usually totals 10miles as does the tempo session...but maybe I'd have been better off dropping one of these sessions and doing the 13-15mile run...0 -
I agree with the attitude that the three most important aspects of marathon training are, in this order:
1) Building endurance (longer runs, increased mileage)
2) Increasing lactate threshold (tempo)
3) Developing V02 max (intervals)
Thus I think it's important to prioritise 1 & 2, even to the expense of neglecting 3.
(These views are of course shaped by Pfitzinger! :cool: )0 -
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2) Increasing lactate threshold (tempo)
Peckham and Racing Flat,
What exactly do you mean when you say a Tempo run? Do you have an example of what you would do and the pace you'd do it at?
I would normally refer to this as a Pace run but maybe there's a distinction?
An example of my type of pace run would be:
Warm up at easy pace (8 min miles) of approx 1.5 miles
Then a lifting of the pace to my target marathon pace of 6:52 mins per mile (2:59 hrs marathon pace) for about 5 - 8 miles (distance varies per session)
Then a cool down (easy pace 8 min miles) of about 1.5 miles
Is this the type of session you would do? Or do you think its beneficial for a sub 3 hour training program?0 -
Peckham and Racing Flat,
What exactly do you mean when you say a Tempo run? Do you have an example of what you would do and the pace you'd do it at?
I would normally refer to this as a Pace run but maybe there's a distinction?
An example of my type of pace run would be:
Warm up at easy pace (8 min miles) of approx 1.5 miles
Then a lifting of the pace to my target marathon pace of 6:52 mins per mile (2:59 hrs marathon pace) for about 5 - 8 miles (distance varies per session)
Then a cool down (easy pace 8 min miles) of about 1.5 miles
Is this the type of session you would do? Or do you think its beneficial for a sub 3 hour training program?
That wouldn't qualify as a pace run/tempo run in my books. Marathon pace should be rather easy.
http://www.trainingpeaks.com/cuttingedge/pzidetails.asp
Tempo would related to zone 6 or threshold.
Marathon would be Pace Zone 4: High Aerobic
For a 6:52 marathon pace yuo'd be looking at a 6:15-6:04 tempo pace.0 -
Tunney is bang on, although I'd take tempo a small bit slower than that. I'm training for 2:59 also, and look to keep my tempo runs just under 6:20 (i.e. just a bit faster than half marathon pace).
For example, my tempo session on Tuesday was 12 miles with 7 at tempo pace. This involved.....
3 miles @ 7:30 pace
1 mile @ 6:50 pace (marathon pace)
7 miles @ 6:19 (average, but all miles were within 4 seconds of this)
1 mile @ 8:00 pace
Good article here about it.0 -
Just out of interest what's your running background and prior race experince / times? They usually give a good indication of potential.
As a comparison have a look at this plan which is a specific sub 3 to 3:05 one (from a fairly impeccable source!). Note that it's just the last 12 weeks so the assumption is you have already done 4 weeks of base training. Although the P&D plan and this one have a lot of differences they also have a lot in common - high mileage (up to 75 miles a week in the KK plan I think), doubles and lots of short easy runs (6/8 milers at easy pace). Main difference is that the KK plan has shorter, shaper intervals (VO2 max work) and a slightly shorter midweek run. I'm thinking of giving it a whirl for my next race after |Dublin.
That said I am a P&D advocate as well - if you want to get fast get thier book.
@Babybing; maybe it's more genetics than talent - I don't think that everyone could go sub 3 because I don't think everyone could do the training, or do the training at the right intensity. Call it talent, call it luck or whatever but I think that running is a continium and that we all fit on it somewhere. Likewise we all have the potential to move a distance up that continium but we each have an upper limit. For some it's 2:45, for others it's 4:45 and I personally would hesitate to say that all marathon runners slower than 2:45 lack talent.
[edit]I'm planning 3:05 - 3:10 marathon pace and had 7 min/miles pegged as LT, do you guys think I'm aiming too low?0 -
What exactly do you mean when you say a Tempo run?
As above. 'Tempo' run just means quicker than easy jogging - upping the tempo. Going at your marathon pace is a tempo run, but 'marathon paced run' might be a better description.
'Lactate threshold' run is what I meant. When you run, lactate is produced and resorbed. The faster you go, the more lactate is produced. At a certain point (lactate turnpoint / lactate threshold) the amount of lactate produced exceeds the amount that is resorbed, impairing performance ie slowing you down.
So what you want to do in training is to increase the pace at which you can run prior to your body reaching this lactate threshold. Doing lactate threshold runs achieves this. Without getting a fitness test where they check your blood every few minutes and tell you the exact pace and heart rate at which the lactate threshold occurs in you, the best indiactor of your lactate threshold, is the max pace you can maintain for 1 hour. Other people say it is 20secs per mile slower than 10k race pace. Training at very slightly slower than this pace for 20-40 mins is recommended. Jack Daniels says 20 mins is enough, Peter Coe says up to 2 x 20mins max. I've done 3 x 20mins (10mile training), 1 x 45mins(marathon training), but typically do 2 x 20mins.
I warm up for 10-20mins, then do 20 at this pace, 5 mins easy, then another 20 at lactate threshold pace, then 10-15 warm down.different varieties. I do it based on heart rate rather than pace - my heart rate at LT was 178, so I was advised to do my LT runs at 170-175bpm. On a flat surface, good conditions, this might be 6.00pace, but I usually do them on grassy, hilly courses so it might be 6.20pace, so heart rate is a better indicator I think.
I think this training seriously improved my fitness (was stuck around 61-62mins for 10miles for a few years and after doing tempo runs got this down to sub 60 (just about mind!)). World class marathon runners, run the marathon at around their LT pace, and Pfitzinger reckons that most people should be able to run a marathon at close enough to their LT pace. But there's no way I'm going out at 6.00 pace for my next marathon. 6.52 will be more than enough.
Coming up to a marathon though I would recommend doing marathon pace runs. Because these are slower than LT runs, you can do them for longer. ie did about 90mins today at that pace. Pfitzinger also recommends doing a few of these runs. So for the last 5 weeks or so before the marathon I replace LT runs with marathon pace runs, although I will do 1 or 2 LT runs during taper.0 -
--amadeus-- wrote: »[edit]I'm planning 3:05 - 3:10 marathon pace and had 7 min/miles pegged as LT, do you guys think I'm aiming too low?
Not sure if I understand the question fully...But if going for 3.05-3.10, I imagine you can do a 10mile in about 65-68? So LT if you mean lactate threshold pace would be around 6.30pace.0 -
Racing Flat wrote: »Not sure if I understand the question fully...But if going for 3.05-3.10, I imagine you can do a 10mile in about 65-68? So LT if you mean lactate threshold pace would be around 6.30pace.
Sorry, it was an edited afterthought so it was kind of scibbled and your post above has largely answered my questions, I think.
I have never raced a 10 miler - in fact I have an embarasing lack of race experince. 7 marathons but only 4 10ks, 1 5k and I have never raced any other distance, so I don't know what my actual 1/2 mara or 10 mile pace would be.
My last 10k was short, I ran 38:xx but there were a few hundred meters misisng somewhere in the course! Assuming I would have hit 40mins for that race McMillan has me running tempo runs at 6:30 - 6:45. I assumed LT was slower than tempo and using various guides I'd settled on 7 min/mile pace for LT runs. 6:30 sounds very quick - almost 5k pace (ouch!!) Might give it a try and see how far I get with it - if it's too quick I'll find out soon enough!0 -
--amadeus-- wrote: »6:30 sounds very quick - almost 5k pace (ouch!!) Might give it a try and see how far I get with it - if it's too quick I'll find out soon enough!
5k race pace would definitely be too fast - ie you can probably run a 5k in 19mins, so to try and do 20mins or 2 x 20 at this pace would be impossible. If you did 40mins for 10k, 6.24 pace; 6.40-6.50 might be more like it for an LT run.
Afterthought - you might want to check the maths, or do another 5k race, as if you can do 6.24 pace for a 10k, you must be able to do close enough to 6.00/6.10 min pace for 5k...0 -
The numbers are very inconsistent, thinking about it. The only 5k I have ever run was on St. Stephens Day and was my 1st run in a long time (I clocked around 20mins) and I don't think it's a true reflection of my pace. That said the 40min 10k was at peak fitness and may not be representative of where I am now. I'm running a LT run today, I'll try for 6:45 pace and see what happens.0
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Racing Flat wrote: »What I find difficult about this, is by doing an interval session Tuesday and a tempo session Thursday, it's hard to get a 13-15mile mid-week run (usually fairly tired and slow on Wednesday, trot around for 8 miles). The interval session usually totals 10miles as does the tempo session...but maybe I'd have been better off dropping one of these sessions and doing the 13-15mile run...
I wouldn't drop any sessions. I used do a tough interval session on the Tuesday and a 13 mile on a Wednesday. It would be fairly slow, but I certainly wasn't dying on it or anything. The difference is that my next tough session would be on the Friday rather than the Thursday so there wasn't 3 hard days in a row at any stage.
Thankfully I'm not doing the marathon this year so I don't have to worry about fitting anything over 8 miles in on a Wednesday.0 -
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