Arguments against determinsim/ pro free will

Joe1919

Incidentally, in my earlier posts, I defended the free-will in terms of us been subjectively free but objectively determined. (a modernised version of JS Mill old argument ) which is basically my position, along with the idea that responsibility can be taken out of the free will/determinist argument and made stand alone,with certain limitations. (similar to P F Strawson argument )

I mean 'matter of fact' in the synthetic, a posteriori empirical sense. It appears as 'a matter of fact' that many people report the phenomena of 'responsibility, guilt etc', so therefore this phenomena exist in some form and from some source. (innate or social construct or from God or from 'ideas of free will' or disciplined into us or whatever).

I have not inferred that, because responsibility exists, it ought to exist, or (that everyone ought to feel responsible) as this would be a logical fallacy. It would also be a fallacy to claim that because responsibility exists, free will exist.

My opinion here is that it can be argued that 'ideas of responsibility' can be made independent of ideas about free will & therefore compatible with determinism.

I do however, make the empirical claim that our particular society values the idea of responsibility and am prepared to accept this idea. ( I spent some of my youth been accused of been irresponsible). I don't think this 'value judgement' or any other, really has any bearing on the claim that 'ideas of responsibility' are compatible with determinism.

However, it could suggest that because people value the idea of responsibility and because they feel (wrongly IMO) that 'free will' is necessary to support this idea, then people will support free will (in order to support the 'idea of responsibility')

However, I agree that the idea of free will, whether it is a myth or not, reinforces the 'idea of responsibility' and indeed may have possibly been the original source of this idea.

Finally, the question of 'what value' we ought to attribute to ideas of responsibility or guilt is a different question altogether and one I cant answer for the moment. The same can be said about the use of rewards and punishments. I do reject the idea that people as such 'deserve punishment' but on the other hand I accept that some system of 'compliance' or sanctions are often necessary. Its just the way of the world that we are often controlled by those two taskmasters, pleasure and pain.

PS I read your links in more detail later (mid term)

Capt'n Midnight

Heisenberg rules out absolute determinism.

New Scientist had some stuff about the concious a while back and how little we know about what is going on at a sub consious level

what is the story on sub-liminial avertising ?