Need to get a Web site built

KhanTheMan

forbairt wrote: »

Meeting Clients
Getting All Data together
Designing 2 or 3 mockup screens
Tweaking design to customers requirements
Templating Site
Putting Template into CMS
Putting site online
SEO on site
Hosting / Domain costs (Setting up for client)

And all this takes 6 to 7 hours ?

Damn I'm really doing something wrong I think maybe its time to look at a different career

Edit:

6 / 7 hours = 1 site a day ...
52 weeks - 4 weeks holidays = 48 weeks

Lets just say 4 days working = about 200 websites a year

Damn !!!
200 x 300 quid = 60K a year

60K less rent / marketing / software licenses / hard ware ... Tax ... and so on ...
hmm...

forbairt,
Just out of curiosity, what would you have charged if you had written donnyvegas's site for him?

forbairt

donnyvegas wrote: »

not sure. it sorta has been upgraded over time as the site developed. Probably about a week over all - workin a bit per day.

KhanTheMan wrote: »

Everyone jumping on donnyvegas and adding up the hours to 40 per week, when he clearly said "working a bit per week", but they chose to ignore that.

Probably about a week over all = 1 working week and I took it as that.

The poster said 6 - 7 hours later on. Honestly I'd assume it took more time than that. But thats just from my experience.

forbairt

KhanTheMan wrote: »

forbairt,
Just out of curiosity, what would you have charged if you had written donnyvegas's site for him?

1: I'm not exactly going to discuss my rates on here.

2: I don't use templates.

3: If a customer told me he wanted to use a template I'd probably do it and charge them hourly for work done on the site. I've set up wordpress and done custom simple templating for various people. I do templating work for quite a number of people actually and the price various on the work. So its not just a simple I'll charge 300 quid for it.

All he has done is changed the logo slightly from the original template or am I missing something.

For this he's charging 200 - 300 euro ?

For that he's doing 6 - 7 hours work

This gives him an hourly rate of 50 ish euro an hour ? or the higher or lower bracket on it.

As I said earlier.

Joomla Install 20 ish minutes

Add in template time (pay for the template as well I assume unless the customer has supplied it)

Thats about an hour of my time.

Customize whatever on the template. ( no idea what he templated so I can't say)

Teach the customer how to use the CMS (this can end up taking a lot of time)

What level of training do customers get from the "cheap" services online ?

I deal with all sorts of people extremely computer literate ... to .. where's the any key type people.

The Mighty Ken

forbairt wrote: »

What level of training do customers get from the "cheap" services online ?

I'd be more inclined to ask what level of service their customers are getting. How experienced, talented and knowledgeable are the designers and developers? You can't compare some inexperiened kid knocking out awful design and poor technology (or customised templates) from his/her bedroom with a talented, experienced and qualified team of designers, developers and other Web professionals.

The barrier for entry to this industry is very low so you're always going to have incompetents accusing their infinitely more talented, capable and knowledgeable competitors of ripping clients off.

At any rate, this topic has been done to death. There's a market out there for crap and there's a market for high quality design and development services. Each to their own.

heggie

Indeed, theres another one going on in the Entrepreneurial & Business Management. I'm beginning to realise it's a waste of time having any input to these threads. It's a shame because often the op's are getting very bad advice.

forbairt

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

At any rate, this topic has been done to death. There's a market out there for crap and there's a market for high quality design and development services. Each to their own.

+1 ... keep telling myself I won't get involved in these conversations ... was on some down time after enterprise ireland thing this morning though and I started *sighs* .. I think I almost immediately regretted it at once

KhanTheMan

Im not surprised web designers dont want o get involved in these types of conversations. I kind of expected a whole lot of sh!te without a price when i asked about how much you would charge for that site.

OP, if you like it then contact the guy who built it. im sure he'll give you some straight answers to your questions. Along with a straight up price.

forbairt

KhanTheMan wrote: »

Im not surprised web designers dont want o get involved in these types of conversations. I kind of expected a whole lot of sh!te without a price when i asked about how much you would charge for that site.

Do other professions throw down rates on public forums with all their competition on there ?

Sorry I don't check the other forums for their hourly rates that much so I'm unsure if its a norm ?

The Mighty Ken

KhanTheMan wrote: »

Im not surprised web designers dont want o get involved in these types of conversations. I kind of expected a whole lot of sh!te without a price when i asked about how much you would charge for that site.

There's a simple answer... I wouldn't charge anything. I would never develop a site like that and have the audacity to charge for it. As I'm sure many (but certainly not all) professional designers wouldn't.

KhanTheMan

There is an even simpler answer.

People should shop around and do some research before engaging an overpriced web designer to build them sites.

At least when they come into this thread now they will be encouraged to have a good long think about how much they actually do need to spend on a website.

Im happy to reply to anymore PMs about where to get websites done for reasonable prices.

Liam Byrne

KhanTheMan wrote: »

People should shop around and do some research before engaging an overpriced web designer to build them sites.

You could replace "web designer" with pretty much anything in that sentence; indeed, we wouldn't be in our current economic state if we had applied the same thinking to "politician" or "builder"....

At least when they come into this thread now they will be encouraged to have a good long think about how much they actually do need to spend on a website.

Think about what you're proposing for a second; if you were building a house, would you go with the cheapest builder ? Probably not.

Leave out the words "to spend" and you're on to something.

At least when they come into this thread now they will be encouraged to have a good long think about how much they actually do need to spend on a website.

Fixating on price alone is the wrong way to go. What people need to start doing is to start thinking about what they want their site to do for them, and get a quote according to THAT.

A smaller van would be cheaper, but if it's too small/slow/uneconomic to run, then it's a false economy.

Deciding on a website should involve a number of criteria :

Price is one, yeah; but usability, unique design, functionality, speed, expandability & scalability, search engine response, updateability, cross-platform & standards-compliance all come into it too.

I've seen sites that were created using templates / "rapid-development" platforms that needed to be completely rebuilt as soon as the most minor "tweak" was required, because the template/platform/architecture couldn't handle it.

I'm not saying that there isn't a potential issue on price in some cases (the old adage of "you get what you pay for" doesn't always apply given that some people are greedy) but on the flip-side having a potential client argue that they were talking to someone who said they'd do the site for €200 would normally put me off dealing with that client! Someone pulling up in their company Merc / Lexus who views price as a key factor ? Yeah, right! If they applied that logic their company car should be a bog-standard Toyota....

Even at budget rates, €200 is at most 1 day's work, and if you can create a site that meets client requirements (rather than the template designers or your own thoughts of how something should be) within that time-frame then you're a mind-reader, genius, speed-coder, insomniac, graphic whizz and cross-platform expert all in one and should be charging ten times that to give courses on how to do it!

And if ya ain't gonna do a site right, don't do one at all.....

The Mighty Ken

In addition to the above, it's also important to consider how experienced, talented and knowledgeable your designer and/or developer is. Because there is no barrier to entry or regulation, the Web industry is full of bottom feeding incompetents. This thread is a pretty good indicator of that. Although most clients who take their businesses seriously wouldn't want them working on their online strategy.

KhanTheMan

Liam Byrne wrote: »

You could replace "web designer" with pretty much anything in that sentence; indeed, we wouldn't be in our current economic state if we had applied the same thinking to "politician" or "builder"....



Think about what you're proposing for a second; if you were building a house, would you go with the cheapest builder ? Probably not.

Leave out the words "to spend" and you're on to something.



Fixating on price alone is the wrong way to go. What people need to start doing is to start thinking about what they want their site to do for them, and get a quote according to THAT.

A smaller van would be cheaper, but if it's too small/slow/uneconomic to run, then it's a false economy.

Deciding on a website should involve a number of criteria :

Price is one, yeah; but usability, unique design, functionality, speed, expandability & scalability, search engine response, updateability, cross-platform & standards-compliance all come into it too.

I've seen sites that were created using templates / "rapid-development" platforms that needed to be completely rebuilt as soon as the most minor "tweak" was required, because the template/platform/architecture couldn't handle it.

I'm not saying that there isn't a potential issue on price in some cases (the old adage of "you get what you pay for" doesn't always apply given that some people are greedy) but on the flip-side having a potential client argue that they were talking to someone who said they'd do the site for €200 would normally put me off dealing with that client! Someone pulling up in their company Merc / Lexus who views price as a key factor ? Yeah, right! If they applied that logic their company car should be a bog-standard Toyota....

Even at budget rates, €200 is at most 1 day's work, and if you can create a site that meets client requirements (rather than the template designers or your own thoughts of how something should be) within that time-frame then you're a mind-reader, genius, speed-coder, insomniac, graphic whizz and cross-platform expert all in one and should be charging ten times that to give courses on how to do it!

And if ya ain't gonna do a site right, don't do one at all.....

You're forgetting that good web designers are common as muck and you dont even have to get one in Ireland. The very thing that made web designers is going to kill them.

Like i said i dont expect turkeys to vote for christmas. Googling will get anyone who wants it a reasonably priced website.

KhanTheMan

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

In addition to the above, it's also important to consider how experienced, talented and knowledgeable your designer and/or developer is. Because there is no barrier to entry or regulation, the Web industry is full of bottom feeding incompetents. This thread is a pretty good indicator of that. Although most clients who take their businesses seriously wouldn't want them working on their online strategy.

Well the ones here cant even use google.

The Mighty Ken

KhanTheMan wrote: »

You're forgetting that good web designers are common as muck

Web designers are common as muck. Talented Web designers are very rare. It's apparent that you don't know the difference. Best of luck to you.

Liam Byrne

We're getting nowhere here, because anyone who can't see (or accept) that a website should take AT THE VERY LEAST a full week, and therefore should cost AT LEAST 1,000, plus that someone needs to know their stuff in order to get a good solid professional web presence, isn't going to appreciate what's involved.

The level of professional insults being endured here, from someone who obviously doesn't appreciate what's required for a good professional web presence is irritating and tiring. Yes, Ireland is expensive, so people living here have to charge more - that applies to EVERY profession; but the thread is gone beyond that by claiming that "web designers are common as muck"!

Chancers with a basic understanding might be common as muck, but people who know their stuff - in any field - should be respected and valued.....and I'm getting sick of being insulted.

Would KhanTheMan tell BMW or Lambourghini that cars are "common as muck" and so they wouldn't pay the premium over a budget car built by a student ?

Maybe we should ask KhanTheMan what profession he/she is in, and then see if there are a few students or foreigners on the other side of the world who could do their job for peanuts ?

Or maybe we should ask for a few examples of €200 sites that meet the criteria that I posted above ?

The Mighty Ken

Liam Byrne wrote: »

would KhanTheMan tell BMW or Lambourghini that cars are "common as muck" and so they wouldn't pay the premium over a budget car built by a student ?

Good analogy. But... what's the point.

Irish businesses... if you want to spend McDonalds Eurosaver rates on your advertising, don't expect any return.

tricky D

Another (flawed) analogy could be that anyone can join up and play Sunday League soccer in the park, but it takes a lot of dedication, skill and experience to get to the Premier League.

Also the kinds of solutions the really talented developers/designers come up with are business solution oriented which is a completely different league to the common as muck designers. Some people just don't get it that design is only a fraction of what it takes to run a business on the Internet.

KhanTheMan

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Maybe we should ask KhanTheMan what profession he/she is in, and then see if there are a few students or foreigners on the other side of the world who could do their job for peanuts ?

Or maybe we should ask for a few examples of €200 sites that meet the criteria that I posted above ?

I know what im talking about here.
I used to work in the business myself, but i got tired of ripping off people. Now i get them to go and get their websites for a decent price instead.

On your last point, i posted up links to several companies that will do the websites, and they all had sample sites for the customer to check out. but guess what. The post got deleted, without a word. Nobody even asked where it went, when i posted about it being deleted.

Not much point in me continuing in this thread. Anymore people needing the links PM me.

The Mighty Ken

KhanTheMan wrote: »

I know what im talking about here.

Prove it. Link us to some of the work that you've done. The reason your previous links were removed was because they would probably have been seen as touting for business which is against the forum charter. Instead of linking to a Web agency site, why not just post some links of client work that you've done? The mods won't remove those... and I think everyone wants to see if you really do know what you're talking about.

KhanTheMan wrote: »

I used to work in the business myself, but i got tired of ripping off people.

I don't doubt that for a second.

Webmonkey

KhanTheMan wrote:

I used to work in the business myself, but i got tired of ripping off people.

Really? - How come you didn't drop your prices to 200 euro a site and stop 'ripping off' customers. Apparently you should have no problem making a high quality 200 euro website while being able to maintain a business at the same time.

The Mighty Ken

Webmonkey wrote: »

Really? - How come you didn't drop your prices to 200 euro a site and stop 'ripping off' customers.

That's a good question.

Prime Entertain

A really good site is going to cost thousands. Or you could just take some courses and learn how to do it yourslef.