From the Irish times....

cyrusdvirus

I thought this might be of interest to a few here

Irish Times wrote:

More people from Republic opting to join British army
DAN KEENAN

SIX IRISH people turned up yesterday at a British army centre in Fermanagh, pledged allegiance to Queen Elizabeth and walked away as recruits. Five of them are from the Republic, the other from Strabane.

Col Dick Rafferty, the head of recruitment responsible for bringing some 700 young people into the forces annually, stresses there is "nothing new" in people from the South joining the British army.

"There is less of a stigma in telling your friends and family that you've joined," he says. "Perhaps we are seeing old prejudices and preconceptions being put to one side or erased."

Andrew Warrington (22), from Co Mayo, is a former member of the Defence Forces but had to leave because of injury. Because the British army offered to readmit him to military life more quickly, he jumped at the chance. He says his family "are thrilled", while his friends "are grand with it".

He signed for the Royal Irish Regiment, and is down for eventual deployment in Afghanistan.

He admits: "It was kind of scary at first but now I realise it's a job and a good job. Your job takes you away to work on a mission. That's what you do, you go with the flow."

Anthony Kerins (16) leaves for the Army Foundation College in Harrogate on Sunday for more schooling and training.

He joined "to go places . . . to have a good job, to meet good people and get out into the world".

He will also join the Royal Irish Regiment, while others who signed up yesterday will join the Parachute Regiment, the Irish Guards or the Royal Engineers.

Sgt Gavin O'Neill from Tallaght is one of two recruitment officers in Enniskillen.

"My father is still a serving soldier in the Irish Army, and I applied to join shortly after doing my Leaving Cert but I was unsuccessful. The other options open were the French Foreign Legion or the British army, so I chose the British and I joined up."

Dyr

Some european countries will revoke your citizenship if you enlist in a foreign army, that seems sensible to me.

cyrusdvirus

Bambi wrote: »

Some european countries will revoke your citizenship if you enlist in a foreign army, that seems sensible to me.

So if you enlisted in, say, the French foreign legion, you'd happily give up your citizenship and nationality??? (using you in the hypothetical sense)

Hagar

If you join La Legion you may take up a French passport on completion of your period of enlistment AFAIK.

Snickers Man

There is nothing new in Irishmen joining the British Army. They (we) have been doing it for centuries.

The only question I would have about this article is the headline. What does "more" mean in this context?

It might be enlightening to compare the numbers joining today, say, with the numbers joining in the 1930s or indeed the 1830s.

I believe that in the 19th century a disproportionately large percentage of the British army was recruited in Ireland. In that context, to say that "more" are joining today is probably disingenuous.

BTW, from my OED - mercenary: hired soldier in foreign service.

If they retain their Irish passports, they can't complain about being called mercenaries.

cyrusdvirus

Hagar wrote: »

If you join La Legion you may take up a French passport on completion of your period of enlistment AFAIK.

I was just using the Legion as an example. What i was really asking was if Bambi would happily give up his nationality, considering he reckons it's a sensible course of action for a nationstate to revoke your citizenship. I wouldn't exactly consider that a sensible action just because someone has sought employment in another country, albeit in the second country's armed forces.

Leadership

Lets face it the reality is if you want the rush of combat for an Irishman and to get your hands on modern military equipment you have to join foreign force. I guess its human nature, I made the choice to join the British army over the Irish army just for the enhanced opportunities that would be available to me.

Also I believe the article relates to post world war two that the Irish numbers are increasing in the British military. I maintained my nationality during my service but that did close doors to me in the early 90's. I was forced to get dual nationality in the end to become an officer.

petergfiffin

The whole citizenship is valid when you think you have chosen to swear allegience to somebody either the Queen, French President or whoever else and to defend their country. This could present a conflict of interest if they go to war with your home country. In theory I guess if you were captured as a POW you could be executed by your own country as a traitor.

All of this is hypothetical and irrelevant as the real issue the reporter seems to have is the fact that these guys are joining the British army, how many Irish people join the US Army or Foreign Legion every year and not a word about it. I can understand people having strong feelings about this during the "Troubles" but I think it's time we moved on. If the Irish Defence Forces can't give these guys the life they seek then good luck to them

cyrusdvirus

petergfiffin wrote: »

If the Irish Defence Forces can't give these guys the life they seek then good luck to them

Couldn't agree more.

I remember there being a bit of a hand wringing session here when L/Cpl Ian Malone was killed, because he had been featured in a TV program a while before that, where he had said he originally tried to join the Irish army but had been rejected. But he wanted to be a soldier, so he joined the next best thing. Unfortunately, he gave his life, but that was what he wanted to do.

As concerns the citizenship thing, i can see your point of view.

And yeah, i think it's the reporter is the one taking most issue with it.

Traditionally there has always been a strong Irish contingent in the British army

Dyr

If you swear allegiance to another country when you join their armed forces then you've a bit of a conflict of interest. Take a look at all the french/dutch etc who served in the german army during WW2.

As for it being exclusively a problem with the british army, maybe so but bear in mind thats the only army in the world that we've been at war with. Its easy to say we're all friends now in a post Good Friday world but I know of irish guys who took the shilling in the 60s thinking the same only to have the troubles start and leave them in an unenviable position.

Fratton Fred

Bambi wrote: »

If you swear allegiance to another country when you join their armed forces then you've a bit of a conflict of interest. Take a look at all the french/dutch etc who served in the german army during WW2.

As for it being exclusively a problem with the british army, maybe so but bear in mind thats the only army in the world that we've been at war with. Its easy to say we're all friends now in a post Good Friday world but I know of irish guys who took the shilling in the 60s thinking the same only to have the troubles start and leave them in an unenviable position.

When was Ireland at war with the British Army?

If there was ever likely to be any conflict between Ireland and Britain then I would have thought the recruiting army would be the one with the issue. I believe as well that people enlisting from the South were offered the chance to pass on serving in NI.

I can kind of see why people would have a problem joining the Paras, they aren't exactly the most loved regiment in Ireland, but to give people a choice between being an irish citizen and a career in an advanced military seems a bit harsh imho.

Dyr

You might want to try be clever on this but from 1916 up until 1921 this country sure as hell wasn't fighting ze germans. Historically, you can push it back to before the foundation of the united kingdom if you want :pac:

Fratton Fred

Bambi wrote: »

You might want to try be clever on this but from 1916 up until 1921 this country sure as hell wasn't fighting ze germans. Historically, you can push it back to before the foundation of the united kingdom if you want :pac:

I'm not trying to be clever(Facetious maybe:D). There was the war of independance, but it was never an out and out war between Britain and Ireland and at no time did it involve the full British Army

All through those years you mention, there were a great many Irish living in England etc and a great many in the British army. After 1921, there were still scores of irishment joining the British armed forces. how many tens of thousand died in WWII?

I'm just trying to highlight the connections/traditions, that's all. Forgive me for taking this off topic.

cyrusdvirus

I wouldn't regard it as off topic. We are all well aware that there is a tradition of the Irish joining up with other armed forces. there's even a poster here, Manic Moran who is either Irish, or of Irish extraction and a serving officer in the US Army. (apologies manic, only know you from here and don't know that much about you!! )

diverdriver

Bambi is still fighting the old war we never had with the British. Even the IRA has moved on. Not Bambi though:rolleyes:

Fratton Fred

diverdriver wrote: »

Bambi is still fighting the old war we never had with the British. Even the IRA has moved on. Not Bambi though:rolleyes:

Maybe, maybe not, but I can see his point. (even if I don't agree with it).

Hagar

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Maybe, maybe not, but I can see his point. (even if I don't agree with it).

And that my friends is where the future lies.

Dyr

Fratton Fred wrote: »

All through those years you mention, there were a great many Irish living in England etc and a great many in the British army. After 1921, there were still scores of irishment joining the British armed forces. how many tens of thousand died in WWII?

I'm just trying to highlight the connections/traditions, that's all. Forgive me for taking this off topic.

Like I said, many french and dutch etc fought for the nazis, many colonials fought for the british in America, its nothing new and none of those countries would approve of that behaviour now.

If anything the post good friday world probably makes it more likely that Ireland could move towards taking a long hard look at the status of irish citizens who serve in foreign armies. Personally, I don't think the ambiguity is a positive thing. What if some of the guys working in abu ghraib had turned out to be irish citizens?

Fratton Fred

Bambi wrote: »

If anything the post good friday world probably makes it more likely that Ireland could move towards taking a long hard look at the status of irish citizens who serve in foreign armies. Personally, I don't think the ambiguity is a positive thing. What if some of the guys working in abu ghraib had turned out to be irish citizens?

Or Jamaican, Peurto Rican, Mexican....

To be honest, I don't think anyone would ever know. It would Sargeant Sean Murphy US/Royal Marines and that would be it. I really don't think anyone would want to shout about their nationality if they were not British/American or Australian.

Dub13

Its never going to happen that a Irish born person who joins a foreign army gets his citizenship taken away.There would be major constitutional issues for a start.Whats about if a Irish citizen was convicted of been in something like al-Qaeda will we take their passport aswell..?Were will it stop.

You are Irish by birth,you don't get to pick and choose who holds an Irish passport.

minidazzler

Irish men have fought in every major military action of the past few hundred years. Why is this news?

Dyr

I'd agree that it's very unlikely to happen mainly because its generally a non-issue so when you consider the amount of change that would be involved there wouldnt be the impetus there. I still think there's a fundamental paradox in serving in one nations army while claiming citizenship in another.

diverdriver

I still think there's a fundamental paradox in serving in one nations army while claiming citizenship in another.

There is no paradox, that's an invention in your own mind. There is a long history of men from all countries serving in armies other than their own. Their motivation is varied. As far as I'm aware stripping someone of citizenship because of that is unheard of. Maybe you would like to explain to Manic Moran as to why you think he should be stripped of his Irish citizenship for serving in the US Army? With a bit of luck, he'll come and park his Abrams in your front garden, while you explain your 'logic'.

But of course it's the British thing that bothers you isn't it? Because to you, Britain is still the enemy. Sad really:(

KJ_2008

I'm assuming when these guys are blown to smithereens in Iraq or Afghanistan their families won't be looking to put the tricolour on their coffins? "He died for (another) country" should probably go on their headstones.

Sorry, mercenaries, and no better that that.

diverdriver wrote: »

But of course it's the British thing that bothers you isn't it? Because to you, Britain is still the enemy. Sad really

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

latenia

Mod Edit

In the light of todays announcement of the death of an Irishman serving with the BA in Afghanistan the original content of this post has been removed out of respect for his memory.

Hagar

Hagar

Diverdriver, stop personalising the argument. Attack the post, not the poster. Learn to respect other posters putting forward a different view to yours or you will loose the privilege of putting yours forth on this forum.

Fratton Fred

KJ_2008 wrote: »

I'm assuming when these guys are blown to smithereens in Iraq or Afghanistan their families won't be looking to put the tricolour on their coffins? "He died for (another) country" should probably go on their headstones.

Sorry, mercenaries, and no better that that.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

latenia wrote: »

If they're dumb enough to enlist in an army bogged down in two vicious unwinnable wars just so they can play Rambo then f**k them. They'll be no loss to the country.

ISAF has an overwhelming UN mandate in Afghanistan, which is why the US, UK, Canada, Germany, France, Australia etc etc are there. unfortunately the "Second Wealthiest Nation in the World" does not have the ability to assist, so maybe their headstones should read
"Died in another country's uniform because their own was not willing to get off their arse and meet its global obligations".

This country should be proud of those who are out there, "**** them" is, frankly, a pathetic thing to say.

Dub13

RTE News

Irish citizen killed in Afghanistan

Friday, 5 September 2008 08:33
An Irish citizen serving with the Royal Irish Regiment has been killed in Afghanistan, the Department of Foreign Affairs has confirmed.

According to reports, the soldier was killed in an explosion while on a routine foot patrol near Sangin, in the south of the country.

A spokesman for the British Ministry of Defence has said they will not be confirming any details, as the soldier's relatives had requested more time to inform the wider family circle.

Dyr

diverdriver wrote: »

There is no paradox, that's an invention in your own mind. There is a long history of men from all countries serving in armies other than their own. Their motivation is varied. As far as I'm aware stripping someone of citizenship because of that is unheard of. Maybe you would like to explain to Manic Moran as to why you think he should be stripped of his Irish citizenship for serving in the US Army? With a bit of luck, he'll come and park his Abrams in your front garden, while you explain your 'logic'.

But of course it's the British thing that bothers you isn't it? Because to you, Britain is still the enemy. Sad really:(

I'd love to meet manic moran and his abrams, I might even get a ride in it. I'd love to meet you in person too so i can test those pychic abilities you appear to think you have..

r3nu4l

KJ_2008 wrote: »

I'm assuming when these guys are blown to smithereens in Iraq or Afghanistan their families won't be looking to put the tricolour on their coffins?

Interesting question. In my view, the tricolour should not go on their coffins because they did not die while defending Ireland or representing Ireland. I would have no problem with the Union Flag going on his coffin or with a British military guard of honour.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

ISAF has an overwhelming UN mandate in Afghanistan, which is why the US, UK, Canada, Germany, France, Australia etc etc are there. unfortunately the "Second Wealthiest Nation in the World" does not have the ability to assist, so maybe their headstones should read
"Died in another country's uniform because their own was not willing to get off their arse and meet its global obligations".

This country should be proud of those who are out there, "**** them" is, frankly, a pathetic thing to say.

Yeah you see, you mention Afghanistan which is all well and good but a guy who signs up to the British Army doesn't have the option of saying "I don't want to go to Iraq because there was no mandate and we're only there for the oil, I'll go to Afghanistan instead to meet my global obligation". So in my view, joining the British army to meet a global obligation is a bit of a cop out.

Dub13

r3nu4l wrote: »

Interesting question. In my view, the tricolour should not go on their coffins because they did not die while defending Ireland or representing Ireland. I would have no problem with the Union Flag going on his coffin or with a British military guard of honour.

What they have done in the past was put their Regimental Flag over the coffin.

Fratton Fred

KJ_2008 wrote: »

Yeah you see, you mention Afghanistan which is all well and good but a guy who signs up to the British Army doesn't have the option of saying "I don't want to go to Iraq because there was no mandate and we're only there for the oil, I'll go to Afghanistan instead to meet my global obligation". So in my view, joining the British army to meet a global obligation is a bit of a cop out.

Afghanistan is one example, there are dozens more.

Iraq II is probably the only one inliving memory (For most of us) where Britain has operated outside of a UN mandate.

there's also the small matter of NATO duties as well.

r3nu4l

Fred, that was me that said that, not KJ_2008, can you please edit the quote to reflect?

r3nu4l

Dub13 wrote: »

What they have done in the past was put their Regimental Flag over the coffin.

I still think it should be the Union Flag though, just so everybody knows exactly who the person was fighting for. Most Irish people wouldn't recognise a Parachute Regiment flag and the RIR flag might make people think the guy who died was a member of the Irish army...that's even if they recognised the flag as military at all...

OS119

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Afghanistan is one example, there are dozens more.

Iraq II is probably the only one inliving memory (For most of us) where Britain has operated outside of a UN mandate.

there's also the small matter of NATO duties as well.

Telic (the British Military Operation in Iraq) has a UN mandate, has done since summer (ish) 2003 - indeed one could argue that it has a far greater mandate, that of the Geneva Conventions regarding an occupying powers (regardless of how, or why, they find themselves in that position) duties and responsibilities towards civilians living in territories occupied by foreign military forces (effectively they break the GC if they sod off when its convenient for them to do so, rather they are required to wait until they have replaced whatever order/regime they destroyed with another that''s either as good or better. Iraq isn't remotely at that stage yet, so if UK forces were to withdraw tomorrow they would be breaking a fuindamental tennet of the GC.)

interesting parallel with Kosovo - there was no UN mandate for KFOR when NATO was bashing the crap out of the 'Yugoslav' Army and Air Force (and kicking lumps out of Belgrade) in preparation for KFOR going into Kosovo, yet Ireland is now a significant contributor - indeed hasn't Ireland commanded one of the Multi-National Divisions there....?

interesting as well, Irish troops, not many perhaps, but some nonetheless, currently operate under exactly the same UN mandate as British troops in A'stan - and indeed under the same NATO+ chain of command - so isn't it amazing that the young man Irishman killed in Helmand in a British uniform is satan, whereas the young Irishman in an Irish uniform undertaking the same mission in Kabul is upholding the finest traditions of Irish peacekeeping...?

delly

RIP to the chap who died.

minidazzler

I don't see why people still have problems with Irish Lads signing up for, fighting for and indeed dying for another country. I know they are like "But back then", Well that is then this is now.

There a many reasons an Irishman can't or won't join the Irish Army, so when they choose to go to our neighbours, the only think I can think to say is Good luck and stay safe.

Indeed if I don't get a Green Card, I will be crossing the Irish Sea. Because I CAN'T join the Irish Army, (as a full-timer).

So, Please people stop with all this bar-stool provo non-sense of "Draping his Casket in the Union Jack" Just so people know he served another master. If his family want a Tri-colour on his casket, they have every right to do so, because he is Irish and his family are Irish. He just served a different Government. So what, Governments come and go sure.

r3nu4l

minidazzler wrote: »

So, Please people stop with all this bar-stool provo non-sense of "Draping his Casket in the Union Jack" Just so people know he served another master. If his family want a Tri-colour on his casket, they have every right to do so, because he is Irish and his family are Irish. He just served a different Government. So what, Governments come and go sure.

Bar Stool provo? I'll expect an apology for that. :mad: Let me put it another way because you are silly enough to make an assumption about what I said. If you serve ANY foreign army you should have their flag placed on your coffin if you die serving that country, this has nothing to do with serving for the BRITISH army I simply used the Union flag as an example because shock-horror, this thread is about that very subject. Some people really need to get over their anyone who makes a comment that I ASS-U-ME to be anti-British is a "bar-stool provo" attitude :rolleyes:

latenia

minidazzler wrote: »

If his family want a Tri-colour on his casket, they have every right to do so, because he is Irish and his family are Irish.

No they don't.

The tricolour is draped across the coffins of Presidents of Ireland (including former Presidents), soldiers and Garda Síochána personnel killed in the line of duty, and other notables accorded state funerals

delly

latenia wrote: »

No they don't.

The tricolour is draped across the coffins of Presidents of Ireland (including former Presidents), soldiers and Garda Síochána personnel killed in the line of duty, and other notables accorded state funerals

Yeah, in official state funerals, but any person can put on a tricolour if they wish.

Hagar

latenia wrote: »

No they don't.

The tricolour is draped across the coffins of Presidents of Ireland (including former Presidents), soldiers and Garda Síochána personnel killed in the line of duty, and other notables accorded state funerals

Anybody who has served Ireland in the Defence Forces whether or not they were killed in the line of duty is entitled to have a Tricolour on their coffin.

In my opinion

Anybody can have the tri colour on their coffin. Family choice. The flag belongs to more than just soldiers, presidents and Gardai it's mine as well!

Dub13

An interesting piece.

Thoughts of a fighting Irishman as he serves the queen

Irish Times Fri, May 23, 2008

SOLDIER'S DIARY:Wicklowman LIEUT PADDY BURYis serving with the British army in Afghanistan. In the first of an occasional diary from the front, he explains what attracted him.

WHY DOES an Irishman serve as an officer in the British army? It's a question I am asked almost every time I return to Ireland, sometimes with varying degrees of accusation or incredulity. Certainly, there are subtle contradictions in serving the queen as an Irishman, but even the fact that I can admit I serve in the British army is a testament to how much attitudes in Ireland have changed in the last five years.

In my limited experience of both soldiers and officers, it comes down to a calling. In today's society, with its decline of male identity, the warrior tradition embodied by the infantry is a huge attraction for young men, whether from Ireland or not.

Irishmen that I serve with have joined for a sense of self-worth, challenge, adventure, travel and above all, camaraderie. Drawn from all parts of the island of Ireland and from all backgrounds and religions, they have taken the considerable step of enlisting in, what is often for them, a foreign army. This is to fulfil an inherent desire often repeated in the history of Irish military service. The warrior ethos that underpins service in the infantry is inherent in many men and is reflected in the general interest and questions posed by young and old men when I return to Ireland.

The British army's imperial experience of incorporating all creeds and denominations to defend the realm has given it a great understanding of diversity and a cheery acceptance of others. I have never faced any anti-Irish hostility, and I would suggest my soldiers haven't either.

Sandhurst, the home of the British officer corps, is a model of diversity and equality, and throughout the training of both officers and soldiers careful attention is paid to ethnicity.

In the 1st Battalion, the Royal Irish Regiment, there is always room for gentle ribbing between Northern and Southern Irishmen, in much the same way as Cork people rib Dubliners and vice versa, but this is part of the unique character of our pan-Irish battalion. In attracting those of the warrior creed, all else is voluntarily subordinated to the ideal of soldering. It is a real example to all Irish people of what can be achieved when we work together towards a common goal.

Those of us from the Republic who serve in the British army have diverse backgrounds and have taken different paths to get here.

Fellow officers from Kildare, Mayo and Dublin are drawn from across the spectrum of society, from old Anglo-Irish families to the urban middle classes.

Soldiers from Cork, Dublin, Meath, Laois, Kildare, Wicklow, Kerry, Donegal, and Cavan are also representative of all parts of Irish society, and have often taken long and winding roads on their way to enlistment.

Many have served in the Irish Defence Forces. These soldiers therefore often have a wealth of experience, maturity and, in many respects, a resilience to hardship that has typified Irish soldiers on the battlefield in the past. Added to this is a gregarious sense of humour and a litany of anecdotes that provide morale for us all when times are tough. They are truly unique, an admired band wherever they serve with the shamrock on their shoulder.

Yes, sometimes I wonder how the hell did I end up here. And yes, I would love to serve my own country at some stage. But on my first inspection of the soldiers' rooms as a new officer, I was struck by something that defined both my battalion in particular and being an Irish soldier in the British army in general. In a shared room, at one end of a bed, hanging from the ceiling was a large Union Jack. Exactly opposite it, not three feet from the Union Jack, hung the Tricolour. Contradictory, yes. But I knew I was in the right place.

Lieut Bury is on duty in Helmand province