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First offical pic of the new avensis - what ya think???

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    #32
    ShiverinEskimo
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 18,115 ✭✭✭✭ShiverinEskimo


    maidhc wrote: »
    You should include the BMW 3 and 5 series and Mercedes C and E classes into that if you measure things in that regard.
    yes and no. If you're talking base-spec 3 series and 5 series then yes. But the top-spec of each are savage cars and far from boring if you take the coupés and M-series into account. Even top-spec Mondeos/Vectras/Avensii are still boring cars. They are what they are - they aren't trying to be stylish world-beaters.


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    #33
    maidhc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,667 ✭✭✭maidhc


    ShiverinEskimo wrote: »
    yes and no. If you're talking base-spec 3 series and 5 series then yes. But the top-spec of each are savage cars and far from boring if you take the coupés and M-series into account. Even top-spec Mondeos/Vectras/Avensii are still boring cars. They are what they are - they aren't trying to be stylish world-beaters.

    Yes, well horses for courses, there is a reason there are only a handful of m5s sold a year. The point is a mondeo is head and shoulders above an avensis, and if you drive both the differences become very apparent. A mid spec mondeo is a good competitor for a BMW 5 series, the Avensis isn't.


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    #34
    Zube
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,502 ✭✭✭Zube


    maidhc wrote: »
    The point is a mondeo is head and shoulders above an avensis, and if you drive both the differences become very apparent.

    Not only that, but the Toyota is like that on purpose. We all know what the first drive reports of the new one will say:"Competent, boring, this is no Mondeo to drive, but probably won't break down".

    VW improved the Golf Mk V over the Mk IV because the Focus was better to drive. Toyota really don't care that the Mondeo is better, and will not improve the Avensis so that it drives or handles well, ever, because Avensis buyers don't care either.


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    #35
    ShiverinEskimo
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 18,115 ✭✭✭✭ShiverinEskimo


    Yes but Ford's reliability has severe question marks over it. It depends what you want out of a car, a good looking car that comes with high garage costs, or a poor looking car that will out-live you.
    maidhc wrote:
    A mid spec mondeo is a good competitor for a BMW 5 series

    I'm sorry - I just can't agree with this. But as you said - horses for courses.


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    #36
    Cosmo K
    Registered Users Posts: 985 ✭✭✭Cosmo K


    A least, its 10000% better looking then the current model, which looks a bit........well, baroque.....or boring.....or old fashioned.....or plain ugly....


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    #37
    Wolverine_1999
    Registered Users Posts: 1,013 ✭✭✭Wolverine_1999


    Terrible.. the front and rear window support beams slope down waaay too much which makes the car look like a giant egg.

    Just another Toyota which looks like a erratic cube which you'll be stuck with for 10 years because of their reliability :p


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    #38
    Kintarō Hattori
    Registered Users Posts: 14,993 ✭✭✭✭Kintarō Hattori


    I quite like the styling of the current avensis but the new one just looks fugly. Shame really.


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    #39
    maidhc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,667 ✭✭✭maidhc


    ShiverinEskimo wrote: »
    Yes but Ford's reliability has severe question marks over it.

    ??? Does it?

    I would say that considering the feedback from the Auris, is it Toyota have issues with reliability. Ford are one of the more reliable cars out there since the Mondeo arrived in 1992 and they stopped using accountants to design cars.


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    #40
    mcwhirter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,432 ✭✭✭mcwhirter


    Avensis, Yawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwn


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    #41
    VeVeX
    Registered Users Posts: 1,390 ✭✭✭VeVeX


    Zube wrote: »
    Toyota really don't care that the Mondeo is better, and will not improve the Avensis so that it drives or handles well, ever, because Avensis buyers don't care either.

    Well said.

    Since when did anybody buy a Toyota family car for its handling or looks?

    corolla.jpg

    The majority of Toyota buyers are looking for a reliable registration plate.


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    #42
    Cormic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 818 ✭✭✭Cormic


    That's not a pretty car. Seems that all the familty saloon models are now starting to look the same. Or am I just getting on a bit?


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    #43
    E92
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,147 ✭✭✭E92


    See Autocar for more.

    What presumably will be the best selling variant here, the 2.0 D-4D, has 125 bhp and 229 lb ft of torque, a big improvement on the present favourite, the 1.6 petrol with just 108 bhp and only 111 lb ft. The new favourite, the D-4D has more than double the torque of the 1.6, so obviously for those obsessed by the 1.6, this is the model to go for.

    The petrols vary in size from 1.6-2.0 litres and in power from 132 bhp to 152 bhp.

    Hopefully, we won't be getting the 1.6, the signs aren't too good considering Opel saw fit to bring in 1.6 in the Insignia, and the Vectra sold far fewer copies than the Avensis ever did here.


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    #44
    bazz26
    Registered Users Posts: 51,245 ✭✭✭✭bazz26


    E92 wrote: »
    See Autocar for more.

    What presumably will be the best selling variant here, the 2.0 D-4D, has 125 bhp and 229 lb ft of torque, a big improvement on the present favourite, the 1.6 petrol with just 108 bhp and only 111 lb ft. The new favourite, the D-4D has more than double the torque of the 1.6, so obviously for those obsessed by the 1.6, this is the model to go for.

    The petrols vary in size from 1.6-2.0 litres and in power from 132 bhp to 152 bhp.

    Hopefully, we won't be getting the 1.6, the signs aren't too good considering Opel saw fit to bring in 1.6 in the Insignia, and the Vectra sold far fewer copies than the Avensis ever did here.

    Chances are we will get the 1.6 petrol too as it looks like it is being offered in the UK also with 132bhp afaik. The best of the petrol engines seems to be the 1.8 which has an impressive 147bhp and a new 6 speed gearbox. 2.0 litre petrol only offers about 5bhp more than the 1.8 litre though which seems poor. No mention however of how clean these engines are with regards Co2 levels which must not be good or they would be singing about it.

    The big news for derv fans is that the 2.2 (150bhp) diesel will the be available with an automatic gearbox (tiptronic to be exact) which is a first for Jap diesels in Europe. Taxi drivers will be delighted. The other 2.2 diesel (180bhp) has a manual only.


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    #45
    AugustusMaximus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,044 ✭✭✭AugustusMaximus


    ShiverinEskimo wrote: »
    Yes but Ford's reliability has severe question marks over it. It depends what you want out of a car, a good looking car that comes with high garage costs, or a poor looking car that will out-live you.



    I'm sorry - I just can't agree with this. But as you said - horses for courses.

    Have bought several ford and over all this time, I've had one thing go. the coil in a focus I had.

    Garage fixed it for free eventhough my warranty had elapsed as it goes in all focuses after 70,000 miles.

    Apart from that no trouble whatsoever.


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    #46
    colm_mcm
    Registered Users Posts: 73,456 ✭✭✭✭colm_mcm


    E92 wrote: »
    What presumably will be the best selling variant here, the 2.0 D-4D, has 125 bhp and 229 lb ft of torque, a big improvement on the present favourite, the 1.6 petrol with just 108 bhp and only 111 lb ft. The new favourite, the D-4D has more than double the torque of the 1.6, so obviously for those obsessed by the 1.6, this is the model to go for.

    The petrols vary in size from 1.6-2.0 litres and in power from 132 bhp to 152 bhp.

    Hopefully, we won't be getting the 1.6, the signs aren't too good considering Opel saw fit to bring in 1.6 in the Insignia, and the Vectra sold far fewer copies than the Avensis ever did here.

    Can you not give credit where it's due, 132bhp from a bread&butter 1.6 model is pretty impressive, without having to use turbochargers and superchargers. The technology on the petrol engines should make sure emissions and fuel consumption figures are kept in check.
    Here you have a car with a full lineup of up-to-the-minute petrol and diesel engines, for those who whinge about "just 108bhp" in the 1.6, you get 132, those who bitch that the base engine in the Passat is older than time itself, here's a Toyota 125bhp low emissions base model for you. Is there any possible way they could have done this engine lineup to your liking?

    You can make quite impressive arguments most of the time, but you seem to completely underestimate Irish people and their buying choices.
    You talk of Irish peoples "obsession with 1.6 engines", but conveniently forget that up until July, diesel cars carried a hefty new price and annual road tax premium over their smaller engined petrol equivelants, and for a lot of people, a 1.6 Vectra/Passat/Avensis/3 Series made a lot of sense.
    You can't blame car manufacturers for giving people what they want. Didn't your beloved BMW bring in a 1.6 3 series specifically for the Irish market? (which at 115bhp, wasn't exactly the ultimate driving machine).


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    #47
    Volvoboy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,479 ✭✭✭Volvoboy


    colm_mcm wrote: »
    Can you not give credit where it's due, 132bhp from a bread&butter 1.6 model is pretty impressive, without having to use turbochargers and superchargers. The technology on the petrol engines should make sure emissions and fuel consumption figures are kept in check.
    Here you have a car with a full lineup of up-to-the-minute petrol and diesel engines, for those who whinge about "just 108bhp" in the 1.6, you get 132, those who bitch that the base engine in the Passat is older than time itself, here's a Toyota 125bhp low emissions base model for you. Is there any possible way they could have done this engine lineup to your liking?

    You can make quite impressive arguments most of the time, but you seem to completely underestimate Irish people and their buying choices.
    You talk of Irish peoples "obsession with 1.6 engines", but conveniently forget that up until July, diesel cars carried a hefty new price and annual road tax premium over their smaller engined petrol equivelants, and for a lot of people, a 1.6 Vectra/Passat/Avensis/3 Series made a lot of sense.
    You can't blame car manufacturers for giving people what they want. Didn't your beloved BMW bring in a 1.6 3 series specifically for the Irish market? (which at 115bhp, wasn't exactly the ultimate driving machine).

    Agreed!

    Will there be a Auto / Diesel option available? Cos the manual in the last D4D Avensis (5 speed) was a good bit heavy for city driving, Did drive the 6 speed one and it was much more lighter.


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    #48
    Damien360
    Registered Users Posts: 6,495 ✭✭✭Damien360


    I agree with a lot of what colm is saying but as I own an avensis I can give you another reason to buy a 1.6.

    You cannot get a 1.8 for love nor money. They are hard to find unless they are 3 years old. Walk into most dealers and you get loads of secondhand 1.6's and hence a good choice of colours and specs. Most people like myself prefer to stick to a local dealer so you can get to them in case of any problems. That limits the choice considerably.

    The diesel would have been my choice but my budget (and I suspect many peoples budget) cannot stretch to the premium asked for the diesel.

    On a final note, I will only buy Jap after my current car and considering how well the current one is treating me, I would probably buy the new avensis but not for a few years yet.


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    #49
    maidhc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,667 ✭✭✭maidhc


    colm_mcm wrote: »
    Can you not give credit where it's due, 132bhp from a bread&butter 1.6 model is pretty impressive, without having to use turbochargers and superchargers.

    It is!

    Reality is Toyota sell cars people rather than enthusiasts want. Possibly the reason they are the biggest company in the world, but also possibly the reason few people can feel passionate about a Toyota.


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    #50
    xbox36016
    Closed Accounts Posts: 764 ✭✭✭xbox36016


    look its a is220d


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    #51
    ninty9er
    Registered Users Posts: 9,366 ✭✭✭ninty9er


    I really don't like this new trend of attaching wing mirrors to the main body of the door as opposed to the pillar part.


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    #52
    colm_mcm
    Registered Users Posts: 73,456 ✭✭✭✭colm_mcm


    maidhc wrote: »
    It is!

    Reality is Toyota sell cars people rather than enthusiasts want. Possibly the reason they are the biggest company in the world, but also possibly the reason few people can feel passionate about a Toyota.

    What sort of culture is it that just because a car has some lift-off oversteer or breaks down a lot it is seen as some sort of sports car?
    If you're looking for (or think you can find) passion in a large mass-produced family saloon, then you're either completely misguided or very easily pleased.

    Does anyone that matters feel passionate about a Mondeo or a Mazda6 or a Passat? does an utterly forgettable car like an A4 or a 316i have to carry a premium price-tag despite its humble underpinnings to convince the people that drive them that they're in a superior product? If this car was being unveiled by a different manufacturer, would the same criticisms be made?


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    #53
    E92
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,147 ✭✭✭E92


    colm_mcm wrote: »
    Can you not give credit where it's due, 132bhp from a bread&butter 1.6 model is pretty impressive, without having to use turbochargers and superchargers. The technology on the petrol engines should make sure emissions and fuel consumption figures are kept in check.

    Wow, didn't realise I'd ruffle so many feathers, particularly when I only said I hope we won't get a 1.6, which I still do, and that the D-4D is going to be a big improvement on the existing 1.6, which I've no doubt it will. There's no need for a 1.6 in this market; a diesel has only 6 bhp less but presumably superior mpg and CO2.

    The reason I didn't "give credit where credit is due" is because Valvematic is the same as BMW's Valvetronic (Infiniti and Honda also are using a BMW idea too it must be said - Honda call it "advantced VTEC", Infiniti call it something else which I've forgotten). The only difference is that BMW introduced this approximately 8 years ago. But I'm glad you find a BMW invention "should make sure emissions and fuel consumption figures are kept in check":p;)!

    Having said all of that 132 bhp is very impressive from a 1.6 without forced induction, I note that this is even higher than the 1.8 in the existing Avensis by 3 bhp, and similarly 147 bhp from a naturally aspirated 1.8 is equally impressive(the same as today's 2.0), all the more so when the 2.0 has 152 bhp.
    colm_mcm wrote: »
    Here you have a car with a full lineup of up-to-the-minute petrol and diesel engines, for those who whinge about "just 108bhp" in the 1.6, you get 132, those who bitch that the base engine in the Passat is older than time itself, here's a Toyota 125bhp low emissions base model for you. Is there any possible way they could have done this engine lineup to your liking?

    Well 125 bhp from a 2.0 diesel is very weedy by today's standards(when 1.6 diesels can get to 120 bhp and some 2.0 diesels go up to 180 bhp), but of course the fact that even the least powerful model has 125 bhp is better than the 108 bhp from before.

    I just thought it was odd for a car that's meant to be going upmarket that they would still offer a 1.6 though(even a 132 bhp 1.6), that's all.
    colm_mcm wrote: »
    You can make quite impressive arguments most of the time, but you seem to completely underestimate Irish people and their buying choices.
    You talk of Irish peoples "obsession with 1.6 engines", but conveniently forget that up until July, diesel cars carried a hefty new price and annual road tax premium over their smaller engined petrol equivelants, and for a lot of people, a 1.6 Vectra/Passat/Avensis/3 Series made a lot of sense.

    I don't underestimate Irish people. How many times have we seen it here on motors "engine size no bigger than x.x litres":(?

    I'm not going to buy the line about diesels being dearer either, the proper sized petrols like 1.8s and 2.0s were €1500-€2000 max dearer and nobody bought them. I mean a 1.8 would be the grand total of just €102 per year dearer to tax, which is not even €2 per day.

    In any normal country this wouldn't put people off, and people would laugh at our pint sized underpowered 1.6s to the point that in most major European markets, Toyota doesn't even bother with 1.6 litre engines in the Avensis(UK, France, Germany, Spain don't get the 1.6 at the moment). People in other countries go and buy 2.0 litre engines in this category, while we stick with little 1.6s.

    We just like low powered pint sized engines, as is evident from the fact that if you go beyond 2.0 litres you might as well give away a free house before it will sell:(!
    colm_mcm wrote: »
    You can't blame car manufacturers for giving people what they want. Didn't your beloved BMW bring in a 1.6 3 series specifically for the Irish market? (which at 115bhp, wasn't exactly the ultimate driving machine).

    Yes BMW did, but fortunately they don't any more.

    Of course the 316i is an embarrassment, you didn't need me to tell you that, 4 cylinder BMWs are fairly pointless anyway by and large, like you say not what you'd call an "ultimate driving machine" and in any BMW related post I always advise anyone considering a BMW not to bother with 4 pots and go straight to the sixes. I don't believe in buying something for the status of the badge/reg polate etc, I think it's rather sad tbh, I just can't understand why people go and buy a new car and then get a very basic one and get one with a little underpowered engine, and I find it particularly sad that we should even have to justify the virtues of a larger engine. We place a value on second rate versions of cars, how sad is that?

    Elsewhere if you go for a bigger engine(within reason) it's considered desirable, try selling a 1.4 Auris in the UK, particulatrly as cars like the Avensis are so much bigger and heavier these days and thus need a bigger engine anyway.

    But since you mention it, the 316i is actually sold in Austria, Holland, Turkey, Denmark and Portugal amongst others, ironically some of these countries got the 316i after BMW saw sense and got rid of it here;)!


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    #54
    McSandwich
    Closed Accounts Posts: 593 ✭✭✭McSandwich


    Some interior pics here, http://www.autoblog.it/galleria/parigi-live-2008-lo-stand-toyota/21

    and the press release,

    http://www.newspress.co.uk/DAILY_LINKS/arc_oct_2008/generic_presskit_PMS08_ENG.pdf


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    #55
    E92
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,147 ✭✭✭E92


    Holy funk, the 2.0 D-4D at 134 g/km :eek: - I'm seriously impressed.

    Hopefully we'll be able to get much higher spec models as a result of the class leading CO2 figures. 134 g/km is lower than any other car in this segment bar the Renault Laguna 1.5 dCi but that has only 109 bhp.

    The 2.2 D-4D - which hopefully we'll see a lot more of now that we don't tax cars on engine size, is rated at a very impressive 147 g/km(better than a C5 1.6 HDi I note) in 150 bhp form and a less impressive 157 g/km in 177 bhp form. I still hope Toyota will offer this engine though here, it is still competitive with the Mondeo 2.2 TDCi and Passat TDI 170.

    Prices should remain static but with more equipment I'm hoping.

    The 1.6 is rated at 152 g/km, while the 1.8 is rated at 154 g/km, so that's an improvement of 2 VRT bands and an 8% VRT reduction. The 2.0 is rated at 164 g/km, so an improvement of 2 VRT bands as well.

    As for performance, it makes the Insignia look very weak(and shows that Toyota's decision to only make the car 5 cm longer than its predecessor was the right one), even the 1.6 hits 100 km/h in 10.4 seconds(0.1 slower than the present 1.8), 1.6 better than the old model. However the existing 1.8 has more torque and crucially delivers it lower down the rev range too, so it will feel more flexible. The 1.6 may have 132 bhp, but not until you rev it to 6,400 rpm. The 1.8 sounds good at 147 bhp, though again short on torque at 131 lb ft. No such complaint can be labelled against the 2.2 D-4D 150, with 258 lb ft at only 2000 rpm. Interestingly although the 2.0 D-4D has less power than the 1.6, it is 0.7 seconds faster to 100 at 9.7 seconds. The 2.2 D-4D hits 100 in 8.9 seconds, which sounds healthy to me.

    To be fair to Toyota, these are amongst the best outside of BMW and Audi for CO2 in this size of car. In fact the CO2 is so good and so improved Toyota could easily price the 1.8 at a similar price to rival firms' 1.6s with their 28% VRT, and thus not bother with the 1.6 at all.

    I would expect that prices will be lower for the petrols than they presently are if they're bringing in the 1.6. At today's prices, a 1.6 with 20% rather than 28% VRT should sell for around €24,000 rather than the €26,535 Toyota asks for the 1.6 presently. Surely they're not going to put up the new, more upmarket car up by that much, or are they?


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    #56
    Zonda999
    Registered Users Posts: 5,533 ✭✭✭Zonda999


    McSandwich wrote: »
    Some interior pics here, http://www.autoblog.it/galleria/parigi-live-2008-lo-stand-toyota/21

    and the press release,

    http://www.newspress.co.uk/DAILY_LINKS/arc_oct_2008/generic_presskit_PMS08_ENG.pdf

    That interior aint much on that available in a mondeo, insignia or passat/superb IMO.It looks very last generation, almost exactly like the old model.Once again with a toyota, i'm afraid to say i would have nearly any of its rivals over it.I honestly would prefer a seat exeo and i bet a lot of people would


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    #57
    maidhc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,667 ✭✭✭maidhc


    colm_mcm wrote: »
    What sort of culture is it that just because a car has some lift-off oversteer or breaks down a lot it is seen as some sort of sports car?
    If you're looking for (or think you can find) passion in a large mass-produced family saloon, then you're either completely misguided or very easily pleased.

    The reality is Toyotas are set up to be quite and comfortable. Unlike say a Ford which generally seems to need a bit of soundproofing and has a harsh ride.

    The Ford goes around corners quicker.

    Which do you think a rally driver (assuming he could only have one or the other) would choose.

    Mammy Daddy and baby on the other hand will like the 3 year warranty, the comfy seats, the smooth ride, the reliability (better than an Auris we hope), the decent spec, the low purchase and running costs, and the good customer service. The rally driver wont give a fiddlers.

    You don't need to convince us colm, few of us aspire to owning a toyota. Neither do those who buy them, they just want a nice "normal" car.


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    #58
    copacetic
    Subscribers Posts: 16,587 ✭✭✭✭copacetic


    off topic i know but the insignia estate from that autocar link of paris is pretty nice

    2108810959.jpg


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    #59
    AugustusMaximus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,044 ✭✭✭AugustusMaximus


    McSandwich wrote: »
    Some interior pics here, http://www.autoblog.it/galleria/parigi-live-2008-lo-stand-toyota/21

    and the press release,

    http://www.newspress.co.uk/DAILY_LINKS/arc_oct_2008/generic_presskit_PMS08_ENG.pdf

    Wow. That interior is appaulingly dated. Looks 6 or 7 years out of date.


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    #60
    regedit
    Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭regedit


    I think what makes the interior look bland in the pictures from the press-release is the fact that they are selling the top model with some sort of brushed aluminum painted with a brown-wood-like colour. If it were plain black, high quality plastic or even Al, it would look nicer. The seats seem comfortable.
    The 0-100 acceleration of 9.7 s for 2.0 diesel is pretty good also
    I never have doubts about Toyota's reliability and safety profile. It would always be at the top of my shopping list.

    The only thing that may make-it-or brake-it is probably the price tag.
    The way the economy is going and at time of uncertainty, not much people would be prepared for a big price-tag (if competitors are offering lower than Avensis prices).
    Someone may be able to provide us with unofficial prices and tell us when we can expect to have Avensis in showrooms ,#


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    #61
    Damien360
    Registered Users Posts: 6,495 ✭✭✭Damien360


    maidhc wrote: »
    You don't need to convince us colm, few of us aspire to owning a toyota. Neither do those who buy them, they just want a nice "normal" car.

    +1

    Could'nt say it any better


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