Extermination of non-native animals

rwcFM

I've been meaning to post this for a while, for a variety of reasons.

Before people get edgy, because I know this can be a touchy subject, I don't think people should go out and start killing every non-native animal they see.

What are people's opinion of a nation wide cull to reduce the numbers of non-native harmful creatures?

For instance, the grey squirrel. Not only do they rip up and kill trees, they also stunt the growth of our native red squirrel. Another example could be magpies. I always thought they were introduced but from reading this link, they actually arrived here naturally. Either way, should their numbers be reduced?

I'd be interested to know if this was ever brought up before and if so what were the results?

Hammiepeters

Difficult one to measure really. I mean what exactly is harmful by definition. EG. Rabbits. Non native , do much damage but support food chains such as Buzzards, Fox, Badger, etc.
Grey squirrels. Yes. But has the explosion of population in greys assisted the revival of the Pine Marten? Would a widespread cull produce a decline? As with most ecosystems, Irelands wildlife is a delicately held balancing act involving native species, naturalised species and of course ourselves. Invariably when something is tinkered with at the bottom or middle of the chain the results are unpredicable. But yes IMHO cull of magpies and a few other species needs to be done sooner rather than later.

Run_to_da_hills

Hammiepeters wrote: »

But yes IMHO cull of magpies and a few other species needs to be done sooner rather than later.

:mad:

rwcFM

Hammiepeters wrote: »

Difficult one to measure really. I mean what exactly is harmful by definition. EG. Rabbits. Non native , do much damage but support food chains such as Buzzards, Fox, Badger, etc.

If the animal extermination was deemed to be more harmful than not, I don't think anything should happen.

Hammiepeters wrote: »

Grey squirrels. Yes. But has the explosion of population in greys assisted the revival of the Pine Marten? Would a widespread cull produce a decline?

How do you mean assist the revival? By killing the reds? First off, it is known the greys can adapt quickly and spread like wildfire, as they have done so here. The culling could be first localised to certain areas, topped off with a re-introduction of red squirrels to that area. If the reds established a decent community and other wildlife was not overly effected, the project would be a success.

Hammiepeters wrote: »

As with most ecosystems, Irelands wildlife is a delicately held balancing act involving native species, naturalised species and of course ourselves. Invariably when something is tinkered with at the bottom or middle of the chain the results are unpredicable.

Which is why everything would have to be done slowly and with care.

Hammiepeters wrote: »

But yes IMHO cull of magpies and a few other species needs to be done sooner rather than later.

Despite what some people think, I agree with this statement. We really don't know their full effect on the environment, but I think we should look to reducing their numbers greatly.

WharfRat

Hammiepeters wrote: »

As with most ecosystems, Irelands wildlife is a delicately held balancing act involving native species, naturalised species and of course ourselves. Invariably when something is tinkered with at the bottom or middle of the chain the results are unpredicable.

If "the balance of nature" was ever anything more than a nice, but woefully inaccurate, turn of phrase, it definitely does not apply to Ireland. The spread of invasive exotic species, like grey squirrels and Sika deer, demonstrates that there's no balance. Also, the argument (not saying you're making it) that we shouldn't tinker with nature is moot, as we've spent the last few thousand years drastically rebuilding the entire engine though deforestation, wetland reclamation and introduction and extinction of species.

Management of non-native species needs to be done on a case-by-case basis. As pointed out, some, like rabbits, are quite well naturalised and un-eradicable. They've become an integral part of ecosystems. Some targetted population control measures of these species might be needed if there's a local population explosion threatening an important native species or community. Other species are rapidly increasing in range and population and are displacing native or long-naturalised species and disrupting ecosystems. We can see their effects with a bit of research. Some good information on Irish invasives is available at http://www.invasivespeciesireland.com/. For my money, some of the worst include Rhododendron, grey squirrel, Sika (and muntjac) deer, Himalayan balsam, zebra mussel, giant hogweed, mink and Japanese knotweed. Even some nice trees, like beech and sycamore, are problem species in native woodlands.

Where possible, I would advocate eradication of these species. Often, this isn't really feasible on a practical level. If not, then some degree of control is needed combined with measures to restore habitats and species that have been damaged by the invasives. Again, judge this on a case-by-case basis, targetting species with the most negative impacts or those where control efforts will have the greatest rewards.

Putting the charismatic mammals in my sights, I would advocate strong culls of grey squirrel and deer in particular. Grey squirrel as it's rapidly spreading at the expense of the native reds. Sika (not native red) deer as there's a massive overgrazing problem in many parts of the country which is damaging native woodlands.

NoNameRanger

WharfRat wrote: »

If "the balance of nature" was ever anything more than a nice, but woefully inaccurate, turn of phrase, it definitely does not apply to Ireland. The spread of invasive exotic species, like grey squirrels and Sika deer, demonstrates that there's no balance. Also, the argument (not saying you're making it) that we shouldn't tinker with nature is moot, as we've spent the last few thousand years drastically rebuilding the entire engine though deforestation, wetland reclamation and introduction and extinction of species.

Management of non-native species needs to be done on a case-by-case basis. As pointed out, some, like rabbits, are quite well naturalised and un-eradicable. They've become an integral part of ecosystems. Some targetted population control measures of these species might be needed if there's a local population explosion threatening an important native species or community. Other species are rapidly increasing in range and population and are displacing native or long-naturalised species and disrupting ecosystems. We can see their effects with a bit of research. Some good information on Irish invasives is available at http://www.invasivespeciesireland.com/. For my money, some of the worst include Rhododendron, grey squirrel, Sika (and muntjac) deer, Himalayan balsam, zebra mussel, giant hogweed, mink and Japanese knotweed. Even some nice trees, like beech and sycamore, are problem species in native woodlands.

Where possible, I would advocate eradication of these species. Often, this isn't really feasible on a practical level. If not, then some degree of control is needed combined with measures to restore habitats and species that have been damaged by the invasives. Again, judge this on a case-by-case basis, targetting species with the most negative impacts or those where control efforts will have the greatest rewards.

Putting the charismatic mammals in my sights, I would advocate strong culls of grey squirrel and deer in particular. Grey squirrel as it's rapidly spreading at the expense of the native reds. Sika (not native red) deer as there's a massive overgrazing problem in many parts of the country which is damaging native woodlands.

First of all welcome to boards, thats a hell of a good second post. I agree with you 100%. I have been having similar debates recently with other member on boards.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=216791&page=44

Sika deer are the fastest expanding species in Ireland at the moment in both population and range. The are being moved all over Ireland at the moment by idiotic, irresponsible, selfish deer hunters and are really putting our native Red Deer in danger of extinction through hybridisation. The Irish Deer society need to take a serious stand against this and assist in the eradication of all Sika outside Wicklow, Killarney and Fermanagh. And the populations in these areas need to be dramatically reduced, conservative estimates are now pointing at over 40,000 Sika Hybrids in Wicklow. They are out of control!!! NPWS management and research need to wake up and address these issues and take immediate action. They need to call on the expertise of all their deer experts and get Gormley into a seminar/meeting to impress the urgency and get things done. They need a person dealing solely with deer in research section and they need to make serious funds available and some changes to legislation. Sika deer should be afforded zero protection under the wildlife act. Its like making rhododendron a protected species. Each year that this doesn't happen the problem becomes 10-15% worse. And now we have muntjac.
When we have the deer under control then we can start on Rhododendron, grey squirrel, Himalayan balsam, zebra mussel, giant hogweed, mink and Japanese knotweed.
Keep posting WharfRat, have a look at the hunting forum also, share your knowledge:).

magicbastarder

is it legal to hunt sika deer and grey squirrel without a specific licence (i.e. with a licence to hold a firearm, but not necessarily one to hunt these particular species)?

It wasn't me!

You need a specific licence to shoot deer of any variety, available from NPWS, but grey squirrels are free to all comers as long as you have permission to shoot on the land in question. Can't just wander into the woods and start blasting.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

rwcFM wrote: »

For instance, the grey squirrel... Another example could be magpies. I always thought they were introduced but from reading this link, they actually arrived here naturally. Either way, should their numbers be reduced?

I'd be interested to know if this was ever brought up before and if so what were the results?

This has been debated many times but I find it interesting that you question the viability of a cull of both introduced and naturally occuring species. Magpies did indeed colonise this country naturally. There has been so much bunkum spead about their "harmful" affect on songbirds numbers that the level of ignorance amazes me. Everyone should read the copious research material available from the BTO and RSPB on the subject - it would open many an eye!

Do we feel that Little Egrets should be culled as they only arrived here in the past few years?

As for a cull of Grey Squirrels: it's questionable if it would have any affect in areas where the red squirrel is already at extremely low numbers (East coast mainly), but could have a beneficial impact west of the Shannon if carried could out very soon.

magicbastarder

i heard from a coillte rep that he thinks there's a plan to reintroduce reds to the phoenix park.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

magicbastarder wrote: »

i heard from a coillte rep that he thinks there's a plan to reintroduce reds to the phoenix park.

Before consideration can be made of the Reds being released into the wild of the park, (Dublin Zoo is planning to breed 300 for the programme) the Office of Public Works has commissioned a study by the zoology department at University College Dublin on releasing them. One of the problems is that Greys abound in the areas surrounding the park and will undoubtedly try to fill the void left by initial culls within the park. We await the results of the study with interest.

Hendrix89

I personally don't believe in this at all. Humans have done (still do) more damage to Irelands wildlife than animals ever will. We grew from hunting for food to hunting for sport.

If it really is absolutely necessary to level out things then re-introduction of some of Irelands native predators, and maybe stop shooting our few remaining one's, is the proper way to do it (IMO). That's the natural way..

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

NoNameRanger wrote: »

NPWS management and research need to wake up and address these issues and take immediate action. They need to call on the expertise of all their deer experts

When we have the deer under control then we can start on Rhododendron, grey squirrel, Himalayan balsam, zebra mussel, giant hogweed, mink and Japanese knotweed.

Seems someone has not been consulted. I wonder why?:D

Which species should be tackled first depends on your own interests.

BK:P

NoNameRanger

Jadiel Unkempt Violoncello wrote: »

This has been debated many times but I find it interesting that you question the viability of a cull of both introduced and naturally occuring species. Magpies did indeed colonise this country naturally. There has been so much bunkum spead about their "harmful" affect on songbirds numbers that the level of ignorance amazes me. Everyone should read the copious research material available from the BTO and RSPB on the subject - it would open many an eye!

Do we feel that Little Egrets should be culled as they only arrived here in the past few years?

As for a cull of Grey Squirrels: it's questionable if it would have any affect in areas where the red squirrel is already at extremely low numbers (East coast mainly), but could have a beneficial impact west of the Shannon if carried could out very soon.

Agreed on all three points.

Hendrix89 wrote: »

I personally don't believe in this at all. Humans have done (still do) more damage to Irelands wildlife than animals ever will. We grew from hunting for food to hunting for sport.

If it really is absolutely necessary to level out things then re-introduction of some of Irelands native predators, and maybe stop shooting our few remaining one's, is the proper way to do it (IMO). That's the natural way..

An extremely simplistic view. Re-introducing the wolf is what you are referring to i suppose. It will never happen, look at the way people in Kerry reacted to the Sea Eagle, imagine what the farmers would do if wolves were released in the Kerry mountains. Yes humans have done the damage in the past by wiping out the predators and introducing alien species and some continue to do so to this day. But we can't sit back and do nothing now and allow these alien species to expand and do further damage to delicate habitats and our remaining native species.

I think you would find this thread interesting.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055373017

Jadiel Unkempt Violoncello wrote: »

Seems someone has not been consulted. I wonder why?:D

Which species should be tackled first depends on your own interests.

Trying to push my buttons again Jadiel Unkempt Violoncello?:rolleyes::rolleyes: I am involved actually but the deer group is made up of a lot of senior management without a clue of whats going on and various others with their own agendas. A lot of very knowledgeable people are not invited to the forum. Its easier for NPWS to just stick their heads in the sand. They are trying to keep too many people happy instead of doing whats right. Politics over-rule science:rolleyes: Guess we will have to wait for the EU to step in before any action will be taken.

BK:P

Are you playing some sort of a game here or what? I know who you are:rolleyes::D

ODD-JOB

And the truth is ...... it is the human's that need to be culled !
not very practical I know ,.... but we're flourishing at a rate that is squashing everything else out.

Best thing for humans to do is to leave nature alone , and stop interfering.

It wasn't me!

ODD-JOB wrote: »

Best thing for humans to do is to leave nature alone , and stop interfering.

I disagree, vehemently. If anything, humanity is too distant from nature and needs to integrate more fully. Involvement in the environment leads to a vested interest in balance and the effective protection of natural assets and essences. I went out shooting this evening, after a couple of bunnies, around last light and just after dark. I saw some rabbits, I listened to deer calling in the surrounding hills, and I watched an intrepid fox chase a bunny right out from under my crosshairs. It was a fantastic hour or so, and I know you'll say I could do it without shooting, but shooting is further involvement, as you harvest your food ethically from the environment, increasing your dependence on it and further investing yourself in its continued healthy state. People should get back to basics. Forget your supermarket chicken and get far better quality food by learning valuable skills like hunting and trapping and shooting, and learn more about your environment and what populates it in the process.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

ODD-JOB wrote: »

And the truth is ...... it is the human's that need to be culled !
not very practical I know ,.... but we're flourishing at a rate that is squashing everything else out.

Best thing for humans to do is to leave nature alone , and stop interfering.

Stuff 'n Nonsense on so many fronts and an affront to millions living and dieing in poverty and deprivation! Get some perspective! :mad:

Galvasean

I found a natural solution to keeping magpies at bay. Get some woodcrests (large variety of pigeon) in. They are fiercely territorial and hate magpies with a passion. A breeding pair moved in to my garden 2 years ago and forced out the local magpies who had been inhabiting the area for generations.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Galvasean wrote: »

I found a natural solution to keeping magpies at bay. Get some woodcrests (large variety of pigeon) in. They are fiercely territorial and hate magpies with a passion. A breeding pair moved in to my garden 2 years ago and forced out the local magpies who had been inhabiting the area for generations.

Sorry, you've lost me! What are Woodcrests? Do you mean Woodpigeon (Columba palumbus) or are you introducing another non-native species? If it is Woodpigeon then I'm afraid your solution doesn't work here. The pair nesting in my garden are raided by Magpies every year.

BK

sorella

One of my cats used to prey on and chase off magpies in one house; she would climb to their nest atop a tall tree.

As she is black and white, I thought at first it was a large magpie sitting up there.

But they never came back to that house.

Galvasean wrote: »

I found a natural solution to keeping magpies at bay. Get some woodcrests (large variety of pigeon) in. They are fiercely territorial and hate magpies with a passion. A breeding pair moved in to my garden 2 years ago and forced out the local magpies who had been inhabiting the area for generations.