M9 - Waterford motorway construction updates

icdg

Jayuu wrote: »

Well that's what I thought, but I'm sure I read somewhere (can't remember where though!) that its not being designated as motorway. That's why I'm confused about it. Anybody got definite information on this?

It would have to be designated motorway if you can't escape off it. That's why even before motorway redesignation, J2-J1 of the N6 eastbound was still signed as M6 (although in this case, arguably this section in both directions always should have been M6 since it was built under a motorway order).

Similarly, there the M20 has a single carriageway spur which is about 1km long at one point, I think its J3 but can't remember. It is signed as motorway from the last roundabout you encounter because after than, you can't leave. It doesn't have a number of its own though, its just M20 as well.

Jayuu

icdg wrote: »

It would have to be designated motorway if you can't escape off it. That's why even before motorway redesignation, J2-J1 of the N6 eastbound was still signed as M6 (although in this case, arguably this section in both directions always should have been M6 since it was built under a motorway order).

Similarly, there the M20 has a single carriageway spur which is about 1km long at one point, I think its J3 but can't remember. It is signed as motorway from the last roundabout you encounter because after than, you can't leave. It doesn't have a number of its own though, its just M20 as well.

I would agree but having looked at the NRA's junction map here it's listed as the N10 off the motorway. Actually this map answer a lot of my previous questions about the spur. It would seem that the old N10 is being redesignated as the R712 into Kilkenny but the N10 itself will still exist from the motorway to the ring road and then back to Danesfort.

It is possible to have a non-motorway designated route that operates with motorway restrictions? This would definitely seem to be a case of making it up as they go along.

Stark

Well all national roads are "N" in legislation, regardless of motorway designation. The "M" is more descriptive. Tbh, I think signing a single carriageway route the length of the N10 as motorway would be not only confusing, but dangerous. You'd have people entering the road, seeing the blue signs and thinking that they have two lanes going in their direction.

hi5

I suspect at the ring road entrance you will have a large green sign with N10 on it,it will also have a blue inset sign with M9 only and the usual motorway restrictions,after that you will have speed limit signs of 100 kmh.
Then at the trumpet slip road you will have a blue sign with M9 and after that a speed limit sign 120 kmh.
AFAIK Its not illegal to do a u-turn on an N road.

Jayuu

hi5 wrote: »

I suspect at the ring road entrance you will have a large green sign with N10 on it,it will also have a blue inset sign with M9 only and the usual motorway restrictions,after that you will have speed limit signs of 100 kmh.
Then at the trumpet slip road you will have a blue sign with M9 and after that a speed limit sign 120 kmh.
AFAIK Its not illegal to do a u-turn on an N road.

Will you be able to do a u-turn? What standard is this spur being built to (WS2/2+2/HQDC)?

invinciblePRSTV

So hows the M9 doing so far in attracting investment then? afterall this was probably the prime reason put forward by regional whinging types on here for the roads construction (as it certainly wasn't built for traffic numbers anyway thats for sure).

Oh look at this, here's a nice article:

Just four of 193 investor visits were to Waterford

By Jamie O'Keeffe. Published on Friday, June 25th, 2010 at 3:24 pm

Of 193 IDA-organised visits by prospective foreign direct investors in the first five months of this year, just six looked at the southeast region.
Describing this imbalance as “absolutely appalling”, local Labour TD Brian O’Shea said the “serious neglect of Waterford” and the region has seen a steady drain of jobs, with 14,630 people on the live register in this constituency at the end of May – a 1,046 increase in a year, and not including all those who have emigrated.
The ‘potential investor’ visits between January and May saw three made to Waterford, one to Dungarvan and two to Carlow. There were eight such visits to the Waterford area during 2009, and two in Dungarvan.
Citing the availability of the former Kilmeaden cheese factory site, Mr O’Shea said that despite the establishment of a special task force last year, “to the best of my knowledge, [the IDA] has failed” to come up with any would-be investors for it.
All other regions have fared better than the southeast in terms of site visits, though the northwest, with seven isn’t exactly being inundated either. By comparison the midlands had 14, the mid-west and north saw 16 each, east Galway had 18, the southwest 22, and the east region 94. Dublin city and county received 92 visits over the period, while 22 companies came to Cork, 18 to Galway, and 11 checked out Limerick.
The figures “prove that Waterford and the south east are being scandalously neglected when it comes to job creation,” Deputy O’Shea told the Dáil.
Minister of State Martin Mansergh, replying on behalf of Enterprise Minister Batt O’Keeffe, ran through all the advantages Waterford has to offer given its “long and strong track record as a centre of manufacturing expertise” and “an important transport hub.”

http://www.munster-express.ie/business/just-four-of-193-investor-visits-were-to-waterford/

Guess the M9 isn't enough on it's own to spur investment in the SE now is it? there's a surprise, maybe a dedicated high speed rail line should be the next priority for the SE?

Bards

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

So hows the M9 doing so far in attracting investment then? afterall this was probably the prime reason put forward by regional whinging types on here for the roads construction (as it certainly wasn't built for traffic numbers anyway thats for sure).

Oh look at this, here's a nice article:

http://www.munster-express.ie/business/just-four-of-193-investor-visits-were-to-waterford/

Guess the M9 isn't enough on it's own to spur investment in the SE now is it? there's a surprise, maybe a dedicated high speed rail line should be the next priority for the SE?

1.) the M9 is not yet complete
2.) It will be at least 5 to 10 years before any judgement can be made
3.) what has this got to do with the M9 Construction apart from having a rant

rayc

The M9 isn't fully open yet, and the Kilkenny - Waterford section (bypassing the worst section of the old N9) only opened at the end of March (reports findings covered period Jan-May). Bit early for your snide comments yet I think.

invinciblePRSTV

Get used to articles like this being posted, ye lot made the big predictions about the M9 and how it is s'posed to be a boon for investment, we won't need to wait 10 years before it becomes clear how little difference this waste of money project will make to the SE's economic prospects.

JohnC.

Investment isn't the only reason for it to exist. You obviously have some kind of irrational hatred of it and just want to have a big moan. A proper road to a main regional city is hardly a waste of money.

invinciblePRSTV

Kahless wrote: »

Investment isn't the only reason for it to exist. You obviously have some kind of irrational hatred of it and just want to have a big moan. A proper road to a main regional city is hardly a waste of money.

Give over with your silly hyperbole young one, the M9 is a waste of resources which would have been better spend elsewhere. As demonstrated by the article, the 'poor me' mindset commonly found in the regions hasn't changed despite the massive investment the SE has got in recent years.

Arthur Scargill

Get off the stage oh Invincible one an stop talkin rot. There is a bit of logic behind these decisions i.e Sh*t road/Politicians with money/next biggest population center/Votes for the boys. 'Tis basis maths. :D:D


Anyway the old N9 was outrageous roll on the M9 an f*ck the begrudgers

JohnC.

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Give over with your silly hyperbole young one, the M9 is a waste of resources which would have been better spend elsewhere. As demonstrated by the article, the 'poor me' mindset commonly found in the regions hasn't changed despite the massive investment the SE has got in recent years.

Okay, I'll stop feeding the troll.

fricatus

On a serious note though, it will be interesting to see the traffic counts on all the interurbans once they're finished. They seem to be a few months old by the time they make it to the NRA website. I guess we're looking at about another year before any sort of picture emerges.

spacetweek

Big transportation upgrades always spur economic growth, but Waterford may take longer due to small size of the city (40,000), and lack of existing large industrial base. The other regional cities in Ireland already have both of these.

Benimar

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Get used to articles like this being posted, ye lot made the big predictions about the M9 and how it is s'posed to be a boon for investment, we won't need to wait 10 years before it becomes clear how little difference this waste of money project will make to the SE's economic prospects.

What price do you put on lives saved? Forget the increase in investment (which will come, but you may have noticed that the entire economy is in the crapper), if you ever drove the 'old' Waterford to Dublin road you would know the Motorway is worth it purely on safety grounds alone.

Stark

A 2+2 upgrade would have provided the safety benefits without the large cost of a motorway.

Benimar

Stark wrote: »

A 2+2 upgrade would have provided the safety benefits without the large cost of a motorway.

How so? The stretch of 'road' between Waterford and Paulstown is beyond upgrade and if you are suggesting a 'new' road, then a Motorway makes sense.

Often enough in this country we fall into the trap of building what is needed today, not what will be needed in 5-10 years time. This motorway is vital to the Southeast region.

Stark

The N/M11 better serves the needs of the Southeast region. The M9 only serves CullenLand.

hi5

I live in Kilkenny and I now have access to Carlow,Waterford and Dublin via a nice smooth motorway and its all toll free too,we indeed are the chosen ones:D

Jayuu

Stark wrote: »

The N/M11 better serves the needs of the Southeast region. The M9 only serves CullenLand.

That's rubbish actually. The South-East consists of the counties of Kilkenny, Carlow, Waterford, Tipperary South and Wexford. How can a road that skirts the extreme east of this region be considered to serve the needs of the region. The N/M11 actually serves Wickow far better than any part of the South East at all. This is the equivalent of saying that the M8 would serve Limerick's needs so we didn't need to build the M7.

The whole point of the road building strategy was to create a network to link Dublin to the main urban areas of the country (apart from the M3 which is less justifiable and the absence of an M4 to Sligo).

Waterford is the central point of the South-East so it makes sense that it would have a decent link. The old N9 was probably the worst of the main Dublin radial routes, especially the further you got from Dublin. Whether it needed a full motorway can be debated. But it definitely needed to be 2+2 standard and the cost to go beyond that can't have been much more.

As for the M9 suddenly creating vast jobs and opportunity, well of course it won't do that. No road will actually do that on its own. But it allows the promotion of the area as having a high quality link to the capital so that it can compete with the rest of the country on an equal basis.

Bards

Jayuu wrote: »

That's rubbish actually. The South-East consists of the counties of Kilkenny, Carlow, Waterford, Tipperary South and Wexford. How can a road that skirts the extreme east of this region be considered to serve the needs of the region. The N/M11 actually serves Wickow far better than any part of the South East at all. This is the equivalent of saying that the M8 would serve Limerick's needs so we didn't need to build the M7.

The whole point of the road building strategy was to create a network to link Dublin to the main urban areas of the country (apart from the M3 which is less justifiable and the absence of an M4 to Sligo).

Waterford is the central point of the South-East so it makes sense that it would have a decent link. The old N9 was probably the worst of the main Dublin radial routes, especially the further you got from Dublin. Whether it needed a full motorway can be debated. But it definitely needed to be 2+2 standard and the cost to go beyond that can't have been much more.

As for the M9 suddenly creating vast jobs and opportunity, well of course it won't do that. No road will actually do that on its own. But it allows the promotion of the area as having a high quality link to the capital so that it can compete with the rest of the country on an equal basis.

This has been debated to death in other threads

let's keep this thread to construction related activity of the M9 and if someone wants to re-open the other thread than go ahead

Stark

Jayuu wrote: »

That's rubbish actually. The South-East consists of the counties of Kilkenny, Carlow, Waterford, Tipperary South and Wexford. How can a road that skirts the extreme east of this region be considered to serve the needs of the region. The N/M11 actually serves Wickow far better than any part of the South East at all. This is the equivalent of saying that the M8 would serve Limerick's needs so we didn't need to build the M7.

The M9 doesn't go through Wexford at all, whereas the N11 does. To use the M9 to get to Wexford, you would have to head westwards and then effectively double back on yourself and head eastwards over the N25. No-one is going to do that. I can see the justification for building the M9 as far as Carlow but Waterford could have been served by filling in the gap on the M11 and extending it past Enniscorthy and upgrading the N30/N25, which they're going to end up doing anyway. The M9 also doesn't go through Tipperary South, Tipperary South is served by the M8.

The M7 serves a lot more than Limerick, it serves most of Co. Kerry and south Co. Clare as well. If there was nowhere to go after Limerick, I doubt they would have built a motorway given its relatively small population. In fact I would say, if it was only Limerick City you wanted to serve, you would be perfectly justified in having a 2+2 spur off the M8 from Cashel that would serve Limerick City.

Bards

Stark wrote: »

The M9 doesn't go through Wexford at all, whereas the N11 does. To use the M9 to get to Wexford, you would have to head westwards and then effectively double back on yourself and head eastwards over the N25. No-one is going to do that. I can see the justification for building the M9 as far as Carlow but Waterford could have been served by filling in the gap on the M11 and extending it past Enniscorthy and upgrading the N30/N25, which they're going to end up doing anyway. The M9 also doesn't go through Tipperary South, Tipperary South is served by the M8.

The M7 serves a lot more than Limerick, it serves most of Co. Kerry and south Co. Clare as well. If there was nowhere to go after Limerick, I doubt they would have built a motorway given its relatively small population. In fact I would say, if it was only Limerick City you wanted to serve, you would be perfectly justified in having a 2+2 spur off the M8 from Cashel that would serve Limerick City.

and what about Kilkenny?

Stark

Is it such a metropolis that it needs a motorway feeding right into it? As it stands, the proposed N10 spur off the M9 is going to be single carriageway anyway.

Bards

Stark wrote: »

Is it such a metropolis that it needs a motorway feeding right into it? As it stands, the proposed N10 spur off the M9 is going to be single carriageway anyway.

well if Carlow is such a metropolis???? I am sure Kilkenny is much more important- therefore, why stop at Carlow?

Look this whole M9 issue was debated to death in other threads and the majority polled were in favour of it. can we not let it lie and come back to this in about 5 years

Stark

Bards wrote: »

well if Carlow is such a metropolis I am sure Kilkenny is much more important- therefore, why stop at Carlow?

Look this whole M9 issue was debated to death in other threads and the majority polled were in favour of it. can we not let it lie and come back to this in about 5 years

The M9 to Carlow will carry Carlow+Kilkenny+Athy traffic. After Carlow, it will carry Kilkenny traffic only, ie: less traffic.

If you don't want the issue discussed, report the thread to the moderators rather than back seat modding it.

JohnC.

Stark wrote: »

The M9 to Carlow will carry Carlow+Kilkenny+Athy traffic. After Carlow, it will carry Kilkenny traffic only, ie: less traffic.

No, it doesn't only carry Kilkenny traffic past Carlow.

Also, the thought of upgrading the old road to 2+2 is laughable. Some of it barely manages to squeeze in single carriageway. It really is a terrible road not deserving to be an N road in this day and age.

Stark

Kahless wrote: »

No, it doesn't only carry Kilkenny traffic past Carlow.

Also, the thought of upgrading the old road to 2+2 is laughable. Some of it barely manages to squeeze in single carriageway. It really is a terrible road not deserving to be an N road in this day and age.

Fine then, Kilkenny+Clonmel. In a few years time, we will likely have high quality road as far as New Ross. This would have amply served Dublin - Waterford traffic and we could have downgraded the N9 from Paulstown to Waterford to regional road. Had funds not been diverted, we could have had the gaps filled in already and/or maybe the M20 Cork - Limerick built as per the original interurban plans. When the Enniscorthy and New Ross bypasses are done, we'll have two high quality routes going from Dublin to Waterford.

JohnC.

So all the haulage/deliveries going between Waterford-Kilkenny-Carlow would have to use a bad regional road?