M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

Wild Bill

Furet wrote: »

When did the wide (and dualled) sections of N20 from between Blackpool and Mallow open?

2001 :cool:

L1011

Chris_533976 wrote: »

The rest of 2011 there will be no funding for new roads at all, except for one scheme, a cheap one, just to say "we're spending money still". N5 Longford is the candidate, as its the cheapest of all.

N5 Longford I thought was very much off the agenda due to needing to make sure it matched up with where the Longford access off the Mullingar-Roosky DC was going to be?

mysterious

Adare.

Tech3

‘No justification’ for M20 delay

There is no justification for delaying construction of the new multi-million M20 motorway between Cork and Limerick, a local TD has said.

Labour TD Sean Sherlock was responding to news that the project has been postponed due to a lack of funding.

“There is no reason why this cannot be financed over a period of time. If it is a Public Private Partnership there will still be construction companies interested in taking part, notwithstanding the economic downturn,” he said.

The M20 was originally part of a tranche of new PPP schemes including the N18/N17 project from Gort to Tuam in Galway, the Enniscorthy and New Ross bypasses in Wexford and the Newlands Cross junction upgrade in Dublin.

All of these projects will progress to tender in 2010 and 2011 but the M20 will not.

"Furthermore, rather than shelving the project due to the downturn I believe that now is the time to invest.

"If done now, this motorway can be constructed at a cost that is significantly less than four or five years ago, or even twelve months ago,” Mr Sherlock added.

link

munchkin_utd

Is the politican suggesting that it should be a toll road or am I missing something?
It wouldnt be a bad solution to be fair.
If its needed so badly then surely people will pay for the priviledge of using it.

KerranJast

munchkin_utd wrote: »

Is the politican suggesting that it should be a toll road or am I missing something?
It wouldnt be a bad solution to be fair.
If its needed so badly then surely people will pay for the priviledge of using it.

I'd happily pay a few euro to save me seeing parts of that "road" ever again.

Tech3

munchkin_utd wrote: »

Is the politican suggesting that it should be a toll road or am I missing something?
It wouldnt be a bad solution to be fair.
If its needed so badly then surely people will pay for the priviledge of using it.

Theres going to be one toll on it whenever it gets built

Amtmann

Yes, but I thought it was to be one of these shadow tolls, no?

Enbee

Whatever happened to the infrastructure bonds that were mooted as a source of finance for several projects including the M20?

Tech3

Furet wrote: »

Yes, but I thought it was to be one of these shadow tolls, no?

AFAIR the M17/M18 is going to be a shadow toll but I think the M20 was proposed to have one toll south of Mallow. I saw it from another thread on here.

Although it's not showing up on the maps of the scheme or scheme description.

db

The point has been made further up the thread that the Dunkettle Interchange would not be able to handle the extra traffic that feeding Limerick - Cork traffic into the M8 would bring. However, all the routes through Cork go via Dunkettle already so most of the traffic is already there. The Dunkettle Interchange needs to be improved anyway even if an M20 is built from Limerick to Cork.
I would consider the Limerick - Waterford route to be of equal importance to Limerick - Cork due to the amount of freight traffic on this route heading to Rosslare.

The Word Is Bor

First up, the M20 NEVER was proposed to have any toll.
Secondly, the M20 does not feed into Dunkettle. It goes straight into the city centre. As part of the southern section of the M20 PPP it was proposed to build the N22 Northern Ring Road to connect the M20 to the M8.

cjpm

tech2 wrote: »

AFAIR the M17/M18 is going to be a shadow toll but I think the M20 was proposed to have one toll south of Mallow. I saw it from another thread on here.


Although it's not showing up on the maps of the scheme or scheme description.

I'm not so sure, There was never a plaza in the design AFAIK, i went to the public display showing the prelim design.

The Word Is Bor wrote: »

First up, the M20 NEVER was proposed to have any toll.

However there was a suggestion that it would be shadow tolled, I heard that second hand from one of the design team. Might not be gospel, however with a scheme that large the chances of it becoming a tolled route must be pretty big...
Where else would the money come from for Construction, sure presently there is no money to even pay for the CPO's??

Chris_533976

I would support a toll on the M20 to get it built sooner. Put one between Mallow and Charleville (where the alternate toll-skipping route is the worst).

bacon&cabbage

The Word Is Bor wrote: »

First up, the M20 NEVER was proposed to have any toll.
Secondly, the M20 does not feed into Dunkettle. It goes straight into the city centre. As part of the southern section of the M20 PPP it was proposed to build the N22 Northern Ring Road to connect the M20 to the M8.

Correct, no Toll for motorists but the Govt would pay for the use

Put one between Mallow and Charleville (where the alternate toll-skipping route is the worst).

but they would miss out on the large volume of commuter traffic from Mallow to Cork

The Word Is Bor

bacon&cabbage wrote: »

but they would miss out on the large volume of commuter traffic from Mallow to Cork

Not to mention the public outcry for applying a toll to a section of road where the alternative the narrowest, bendiest and poorly surfaced section of the N20.

ForiegnNational

General question, what is wrong with the French / Continental model of charging tolls per usage. Collect a ticket on entry and pay the relevant fee on exit?

It would mean more staff collecting tolls (1 per exit), but if for example (don't get upset, these figures are only examples!) Cork -> Mallow was €0.90, Cork -> Charleville was €1.40 and Cork -> Limerick was the full €1.90, would people really take the old road from Mallow if the motorway alternative was under a Euro?

Enbee

ForiegnNational wrote: »

General question, what is wrong with the French / Continental model of charging tolls per usage. Collect a ticket on entry and pay the relevant fee on exit?

It would mean more staff collecting tolls (1 per exit), but if for example (don't get upset, these figures are only examples!) Cork -> Mallow was €0.90, Cork -> Charleville was €1.40 and Cork -> Limerick was the full €1.90, would people really take the old road from Mallow if the motorway alternative was under a Euro?

It's certainly a fairer system and the technology is probably available to implement such a system cheaply if tolling was electronic. Unfortunately PPP contracts have tied up certain sections of motorway to be individually tolled (and one could say that in the context of a French type system they are 'premium toll' rates) for approximately 30 years.

KerranJast

Enbee wrote: »

It's certainly a fairer system and the technology is probably available to implement such a system cheaply if tolling was electronic. Unfortunately PPP contracts have tied up certain sections of motorway to be individually tolled (and one could say that in the context of a French type system they are 'premium toll' rates) for approximately 30 years.

It would require putting toll booths on every entry and exit to the motorway which the French do well but which we would no doubt screw up.

ForiegnNational

Enbee wrote: »

Unfortunately PPP contracts have tied up certain sections of motorway to be individually tolled

In this case I was intending to charge for entire motorway in it's own right. I know it is being built in three sections (+ Northern Ring Road in the South), but if the toll barriers were on entry to the M20 and at each exit up to the merge with the A21, it could be treated as a whole for tolling purposes?

I agree, the peace-meal approach currently taken with sections (e.g. Fermoy / pending Portlaoise for M8) of motorways being tolled, but as this development is for the creation of an entire stretch of motorway, might it not be time to consider if this approach could be applied?

Enbee

ForiegnNational wrote: »

In this case I was intending to charge for entire motorway in it's own right. I know it is being built in three sections (+ Northern Ring Road in the South), but if the toll barriers were on entry to the M20 and at each exit up to the merge with the A21, it could be treated as a whole for tolling purposes?

I agree, the peace-meal approach currently taken with sections (e.g. Fermoy / pending Portlaoise for M8) of motorways being tolled, but as this development is for the creation of an entire stretch of motorway, might it not be time to consider if this approach could be applied?

Sorry, I was speaking generally and should have added that I think your suggestion for the M20 is quite sensible.

spacetweek

KerranJast wrote: »

It would require putting toll booths on every entry and exit to the motorway which the French do well but which we would no doubt screw up.

There's nothing to screw up.

The main reason you wouldn't do it is because the current system is working very well and doesn't have any issues, despite what the media may tell you.

cjpm

cjpm wrote: »

Appearently there was a massive meeting in Rathduff last week about it. Few of the designers and big guns from the NRDO were in attendance. It went on for 4 hours from what i heard, huge opposition to the current layout through the village and the the parallel roads.......

Big attendance from Bweeng too as they will have to travel to Rathduff to access the M20, currently they get on the N20 200m south of the stag (statue) and so they don't have to go through Grenagh or Rathduff

Update on this, the proposed GSJ junction at Rathduff has been moved south by about 2 miles to a location just south of the Stag statue, close to the picnic area.

In fairness it's a better location as due to the topography it should be easier to construct a GSJ. The original location was totally flat, meaning that embankments would have been required for the roundabouts, thus requiring a large landtake. There's a lot of houses close to it too, i'd imagine the residents wouldn't have liked looking at embankments through their front windows....

Amtmann

Thread renamed as requested.

The Word Is Bor

Another incident on the N20 at Ballybeg (south of Buttevant) with a truck over-turning. No injuries AFAIK.

mysterious

There won't be a toll.


The government don't deserve money for it, quite frankly. With a toll on the Shannon people on the N20 will not use both. It means two hefty tolls within 30 miles of each other on the main Atlantic corridor.


I'm sorry but I'm not gong to pay for it.


The road is substandard. The government promised a motorway on the T21 time to cut the crap and keep the poop talking aside. Brian cowen I suggest you hang up your cloak now. It will be good for Ireland. Michael Cullen who grinned so much at the T21 convention should also resign.


This road is a disgrace. You have white elephant roads such as the Tullamore bypass going beore major national primary roads that have one of the highest traffic countrs with substandard road been left to turn to ruins and Brian Cown builds a second bypass around Tullamore. What is going on in this country now. With this constant wreckless planning.

Time is enough wasted. It's time for more action and less talking.

Wild Bill

mysterious wrote: »

You have white elephant roads such as the Tullamore bypass going beore major national primary roads that have one of the highest traffic countrs with substandard road been left to turn to ruins and Brian Cown builds a second bypass around Tullamore.

This is what is wrong with you Irish. You are incapable of defending your own pet project without mindless dissing of another one. The Tullamore by-pass was badly needed. And the traffic count on the N20? What is it? 10k per day? Lucky to have a donkey track in these straightened times. :cool:

asdasd

imbyism

Chris_533976

Wild Bill wrote: »

This is what is wrong with you Irish. You are incapable of defending your own pet project without mindless dissing of another one. The Tullamore by-pass was badly needed. And the traffic count on the N20? What is it? 10k per day? Lucky to have a donkey track in these straightened times. :cool:

N20 at Rathduff = 17k.
N52 south of Kilbeggan = 11k.

Tullamore was only done because a minister lived there and because he wanted the votes from his local patch.

In any case, Claregalway should definately have been prioritised head and shoulders over Tullamore, as it takes 23k.

Edit: And granted, neither the N20 or N52 have the traffic numbers for motorway or even APDC. But the Cork - Limerick corridor is a far more important strategic route than the Kilbeggan - Portlaoise one.

Wild Bill

Hmmm. Do I detect some anti-Offaly prejudice here? Shame on you all. Callan in KK was bypassed; Donegal Town was bypassed; Charleville in Mayo, and many more - all on routes with less traffic than the N52/N80 at Tullamore.

I don't accept that 'cos the M20 is not built Tullamore should have been deprived. On that reasoning the M20 should wait till they finish the M11 in Wicklow. And probably the Dublin Outer Orbital as well. And the Newlands X junction. And widening the M50/M11 merge and Bray bypass. And widening the M7 between the M9 and the Naas Road. And.....you get the point? :mad: