M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

bear1

Varadker mentioned motorwaying the north west and the m20.
I wonder if he's planning a motorway from tuam to sligo then.
M20 built you've got all major towns/cities bar letterkenny from ringaskiddy to sligo connected by motorway.
You can see the massive benefits to the region from miles off.

pigtown

Jaysus if 100km of motorway between Tuam and Sligo get preference over 100km between Limerick and Cork, or Dublin metro projects, I'll be absolutely shocked. I wonder is he talking about getting the A5 back on track

bear1

I might be wrong but I think he mentioned 1) getting funding to build the m2 to border and 2) then giving 400 million to the north to help build their motorway. Dafuq like?
If we have to give money to build roads could we not ask them to chip in for ours?

marno21

Leo is planning upgrades along the N2/A5 corridor.

There are no plans to upgrade the N17 from Tuam to Collooney at present.

This is off topic for here so any discussion of Leo's plans should go on the Government Capital Spending thread please.

Limerick74

Slightly ambitious timeframe http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/252229/leo-five-year-delivery-for-m20.html

grogi

Limerick74 wrote: »

Slightly ambitious timeframe http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/252229/leo-five-year-delivery-for-m20.html

Let me just LOL it... Election sausage, nothing more...

serfboard

Limerick74 wrote: »

Slightly ambitious timeframe http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/252229/leo-five-year-delivery-for-m20.html

Here's what he said:

Leo Varadkar wrote:

I think it could be done

offering two get-out clauses - "think" and "could".

Here's what he should have said if he had any intention of delivering it.

I promise it will be done

serfboard

bear1 wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/cork-to-limerick-road-may-get-funds-for-upgrade-450857.html

From that article:

The Irish Examiner wrote:

The talks involved ways the bank could lend support possibly leading to the costs of projects such as the Cork to Limerick road being kept off the national balance sheet.
...
They also discussed using public-private partnerships to fund projects.

<rant>
This "off-balance sheet" funding talk gets on my wick.

Fine, if the PPP is going to be tolled road and the private sector takes the hit if it doesn't work out (e.g. the M1, M4, M6, M7 and M8 tolls).

I have big objections to the Government-underwritten method of tolling: viz. the Shannon Tunnel and the two M3 tolls, where the government has to make up the shortfall if the toll numbers aren't sufficient.

But the model that sickens me most is the non-tolled PPP model (the M17/M18). In this case, the amount "borrowed" is "off-balance-sheet" but the government still has to pay it back anyway! At rates higher than it would cost to borrow directly! :mad:
</rant>

spacetweek

Thanks, I think.
Most people would already know what off-balance sheet borrowing is. It's a necessary evil in order to circumvent the budgetary straitjacket we're in.

JCX BXC

Anyway the Fine Gael leader / New Taoiseach is being elected today, let's see how Leo's tone is once he's won.

Sam Russell

PPP is just a rip off of the Irish Government and those who pay tax. The risk is taken entirely by the Gov and the other party takes a premium for being invlved without risk. The worse they can do is quite well, but they can really make hay if it works out for them. The Gov always does worse than if they funded the entity themselves.

Look at any of the contracts and you will see what goes on.

serfboard

spacetweek wrote: »

Most people would already know what off-balance sheet borrowing is. It's a necessary evil in order to circumvent the budgetary straitjacket we're in.

It's not a necessary evil though - it's only necessary because Herr Schauble says so.

In a non-tolled PPP we're still borrowing the money (i.e. we still have to pay it back), but we're just not calling it borrowing so that the Germans can sleep soundly in their beds, and the consortia can make a profit from the state.

Any honest assessment of these financial gimmicks would put them on the balance sheet where they belong and where we would get better value!

Non-tolled PPPs are a ripoff, plain and simple. Either borrow on-balance sheet, or don't "borrow" at all.

grogi

serfboard wrote: »

Non-tolled PPPs are a ripoff, plain and simple. Either borrow on-balance sheet, or don't "borrow" at all.

It's not a rip-off. Doing something off the books always costs more, because there are more risks involved.

When you buy a gun, the one without serial number is much more expensive than one with it...

annfield1978

AECOM ROD appointed to go some inital data collection and model updates as part of a pre commencement stage

marno21

annfield1978 wrote: »

AECOM ROD appointed to go some inital data collection and model updates as part of a pre commencement stage

Big thanks for this info.

9 months is how long this stage will take, so we should have this work wound up by March 2018

No further progress is planned at present as we can't afford the €15m to go through the second stage of planning.

boardsuser1

marno21 wrote: »

Big thanks for this info.

9 months is how long this stage will take, so we should have this work wound up by March 2018

No further progress is planned at present as we can't afford the €15m to go through the second stage of planning.

This is worrying.

spacetweek

Having the money for planning for this is just a matter of political will, not availability of money.

marno21

spacetweek wrote: »

Having the money for planning for this is just a matter of political will, not availability of money.

TII have raised significant concerns about the lack of schemes in planning, as there are 8 schemes with planning (N4 Sligo, N5 Mayo, M7 upgrade, Dunkettle, Macroom BP, N56 x2 in Donegal and Moycullen), and 5 schemes with fully funded planning (N2 Slane, N6 Galway BP, Limerick-Foynes, Cork-Ringaskiddy and Mallow bypass)

Beyond that, there is nothing with planning permission besides the N59 Westport-Mulranny scheme and the Ardee bypass.

This is everything in planning at the minute:

N4 upgrade: J1 to J8
N5 Ballaghaderreen-Scramoge
M7 Naas-Red Cow
N11/M50 upgrade - Sandyford-Kilmacanogue
N13/N56 Letterkenny North BP
N14 Letterkenny-Lifford
N14/N15 to A5 Link
N15 Ballybofey/Stranorlar BP
N52 Ardee bypass
N59 Westport - Mulranny
N59 Oughterard - Clifden
N69 Listowel Bypass
N86 Tralee to Dingle

TII want to get more schemes onto this list, because we may not have the money to fund their construction at the minute, but because a suspended scheme is several years away from needing this money, it's better to have them shovel ready on the chance that the money becomes available.

Coming back to the M20, it's reported that the motorway will break costs and time in the following rough scales.

1. Preplanning - Tender awarded 06/2017 - €1m - 9 months
2. Planning - Unfunded - €12-15m - 2 years
3. CPO/detailed design etc. - €100-150m - 2/3 years (depending on objections etc)
4. Construction - €650-700m - 3/4 years.

It's nonsensical to say that we can't afford €12-15m to complete stage 2 of the above given there is lots of money available for various N5 Enda/Michael Ring schemes, and schemes such as the Listowel bypass. It's just a complete lack of political ambition, almost to the point at this stage that there is an anti-M20 agenda amongst certain high members of the current Government. Everyone knows the M20 needs to be built, everyone knows the current road is **** and is choking the region, and everyone knows that the road is unsafe. The longer we wait before progressing planning, the further away from construction we are.

The current government love looking at costs, economic viability, etc. Six people died on this road last year. The average cost of a road fatality to the economy is roughly €2.5m. Six people in 2016 = €2.5m x 6 = €15m. It's a pity the beancounters don't look at it this way.

spacetweek

Can you give us a source for those schemes you've indicated are in planning?

road_high

This thread depresses me every time I look at it!

Chris_5339762

N4 upgrade: J1 to J8
M7 Naas-Red Cow

First I've heard of the N4 one... didn't think it needed it yet apart from a Friday evening.

M7 Naas - Red Cow I thought had been quietly canned even though its in the TEN-T requirements.

marno21

road_high wrote: »

This thread depresses me every time I look at it!

Read the whole thread back and see how many posts about (often fatal) crashes along the N20. And we are actually further away from the motorway being built now than we were in 2011.

Depressing doesn't even begin to describe it.

Shurwhynot

marno21 wrote: »

Read the whole thread back and see how many posts about (often fatal) crashes along the N20. And we are actually further away from the motorway being built now than we were in 2011.

Depressing doesn't even begin to describe it.

Another accident this morning North of Buttevant which led to the road being closed for a number of hours - I don't believe it was fatal

boardsuser1

While the N20 is closed off due to accidents, traffic is usually diverted via Doneraile, an even worse death trap of a road, while i haven't heard of a fatality on that road while diversions are in place, i expect it's only a matter of time sadly.

marno21

KC161 wrote: »

While the N20 is closed off due to accidents, traffic is usually diverted via Doneraile, an even worse death trap of a road, while i haven't heard of a fatality on that road while diversions are in place, i expect it's only a matter of time sadly.

The section of that road from Lisballyhea to Doneraile is an L road. Regardless of context diverting intercity traffic down an L road on a regular basis is ridiculous.

Shurwhynot

KC161 wrote: »

While the N20 is closed off due to accidents, traffic is usually diverted via Doneraile, an even worse death trap of a road, while i haven't heard of a fatality on that road while diversions are in place, i expect it's only a matter of time sadly.

The guards actually directed traffic going North off right at the end of the town. That was grand, as the diversion was literally 1km at most before you came back onto the main road. The problem was that there a large artic lorry at the front of our line of traffic, which could barely fit on this road. It took us 30 minutes to travel the 1km diversion, as the truck was going so slowly. A shambles.

Reputable Rog

Shurwhynot wrote: »

The guards actually directed traffic going North off right at the end of the town. That was grand, as the diversion was literally 1km at most before you came back onto the main road. The problem was that there a large artic lorry at the front of our line of traffic, which could barely fit on this road. It took us 30 minutes to travel the 1km diversion, as the truck was going so slowly. A shambles.

They should have sent the truck out the Liscarroll road and tell it double back towards Churchtown.

marno21

Some amount of people on the narrow sections of this road today with no lights on and it pissing rain. No wonder there are so many tips on the road.

On another note, 96FM couldn't have been more on the ball with their choice of song whilst I (and many others, and of course all the people sat in Mallow, Buttevant, Macroom, Ballyvourney, Inishannon, Killeagh, Castlemartyr, and on approach to the Dunkettle Interchange) was in traffic in Charleville this evening.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emFUtuotHL4

myshirt

We have had a lot of heavy hitters in Limerick over the years?

Why haven't they delivered for Limerick? And who is going to take up the mantle. It looks like very poor succession planning from both Fine Gael and Fianna Fail in Limerick. Don't even start on Labour or SF, we're f#cked if anyone there gets in. Absolutely no where near the quality of politician we need to push this city on and give the good people the platform they need.

That the M20 isn't moving is just outright insanity.

I'd like to see someone like Emmett O'Brien get in. Someone with competence, hard working, and an ability to drive results. Paddy O'Donovan not the worst to be fair, Tom Neville is a joke, as is Kieran O'Donnell, James Collins or Leddin.

boardsuser1

myshirt wrote: »

We have had a lot of heavy hitters in Limerick over the years?

Why haven't they delivered for Limerick? And who is going to take up the mantle. It looks like very poor succession planning from both Fine Gael and Fianna Fail in Limerick. Don't even start on Labour or SF, we're f#cked if anyone there gets in. Absolutely no where near the quality of politician we need to push this city on and give the good people the platform they need.

That the M20 isn't moving is just outright insanity.

Why Michael Noonan and Jan O'Sullivan didn't get this going on their end is inexplicable.

Kieran O'Donnell seems to be trying to keep it going, That's just the Limerick side.

I won't even get started on the Cork end of it :rolleyes: