M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

marno21

Aontachtoir wrote: »

Be careful when you turn your head, mate, that chip on your shoulder is big enough to take your eye out.
Looking forward to getting all the road upgrades in Cork approved by that Mayo Taoiseach and Limerick Minister for Finance. Especially looking forward to the M20 approved by that Dublin Taoiseach.

By the way:

Dunkettle Interchange: ready to go since 2015, still not started
Macroom bypass: planning permission since 2014, no funding for advance works in 2015/2016 means late 2019 start is best case scenario
M28: currently being objected to by Cork FG senator amongst others
Mallow relief road: passed feasibility study, being send back for 2nd feasibility study in 2018
M20: hasn't even started planning yet

M17/M18: open
N5 Westport-Turlough: advance works; seeking tender shortly
N5 Ballaghaderreen-Scramoge: off for planning after being continually funded when "we had no money for anything"

AugustusMinimus

Aontachtoir wrote: »

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Talks of a Limerick - Clare - Galway axis in the M18/17 thread as a counter balance to Dublin.

I have no doubt that the downturn in public finances have a Mayo Taoiseach and a Limerick Finance Minister the perfect opportunity to under invest in Cork whole at the same time, advancing the 2 most costly schemes in the state, both in the west.

Be careful when you turn your head, mate, that chip on your shoulder is big enough to take your eye out.
Looking forward to getting all the road upgrades in Cork approved by that Mayo Taoiseach and Limerick Minister for Finance. Especially looking forward to the M20 approved by that Dublin Taoiseach.

No. I’m being a realist. Just compare the treatment of Cork and Shannon airports for instance. The lack of infrastructural spending in Cork is more of s political decision than funding. Way more.

fonzy951

Water John wrote: »

I have no problem with a Cork-Lim-Galway axis to counterbalance Dublin.
It would be good for all.

Of course I am not niave and a strong politician in Govn't does sway things.

It was a Limerick-Clare-Galway axis that was being mentioned in the M18/17 thread, not Cork-Lim-Galway to counterbalance Dublin.

Cork was left out, what a relief for Cork, being linked to that economic basket case corridor

Aontachtoir

marno21 wrote: »

Aontachtoir wrote: »

Be careful when you turn your head, mate, that chip on your shoulder is big enough to take your eye out.
Looking forward to getting all the road upgrades in Cork approved by that Mayo Taoiseach and Limerick Minister for Finance. Especially looking forward to the M20 approved by that Dublin Taoiseach.

By the way:

Dunkettle Interchange: ready to go since 2015, still not started
Macroom bypass: planning permission since 2014, no funding for advance works in 2015/2016 means late 2019 start is best case scenario
M28: currently being objected to by Cork FG senator amongst others
Mallow relief road: passed feasibility study, being send back for 2nd feasibility study in 2018
M20: hasn't even started planning yet

M17/M18: open
N5 Westport-Turlough: advance works; seeking tender shortly
N5 Ballaghaderreen-Scramoge: off for planning after being continually funded when "we had no money for anything"

Come on Marno. We both know a similar list of delayed projects could be published for nearly any county in the country, and Cork, being the largest county, will have even more than average. At least they're getting done now.
I also don't think it's fair to say that because the €1b M20 didn't go ahead in the middle of the recession that other, just as desperately needed roads (like the N5 improvements) which cost far, far less should not have gone ahead. Ireland is a country of twenty-six counties - Cork is only one of them.

Water John

I think Aontach your views are a bit coloured, blue perhaps. I have been fair I believe. No problem with delays because of recession, except nothing at all happened in Cork and both EK and MN gave us a slap of a wet fish, for asking.

boardsuser1

Just seen this article.

A few miles further south and it would have been chaos.

https://www.thesun.ie/news/1575588/man-has-lucky-escape-after-jeep-bursts-into-flamed-while-driving-on-m20-in-limerick/

Raisins

marno21 wrote: »

Plans and talk are great - Enda repeatedly told Cork who had to repeatedly watch people get killed on the N20 not to be greedy because they got their motorway to Cork. Meanwhile N5/M17/M18 all got built even though non greedy Galwegians got their M6 to Dublin.

Be careful where you veer your rants about poor Cork not having enough motorways.

I know 2 people (very well) who were killed driving on the N17. I was absolutely delighted when the M17 opened yesterday.

The number of road deaths in east Galway was high, as unfortunately, with many parts of the country. Cork doesn't have a monopoly on deaths on the roads.

Aontachtoir

Water John wrote: »

I think Aontach your views are a bit coloured, blue perhaps. I have been fair I believe. No problem with delays because of recession, except nothing at all happened in Cork and both EK and MN gave us a slap of a wet fish, for asking.

John, I have been fair and objective. I'm simply not going to have any part of this persecutory belief that poor Cork has been singled out and shafted, and that Enda Kenny and Michael Noonan sat laughing in Dublin green-lighting motorways and major infrastructure projects all across Ireland except in Cork (where there are numerous Fine Gael TDs, I might add). It's just nonsense.

The recession is over. Money is flowing back into our coffers. Projects that were not affordable are looking achievable. The Cork-Limerick motorway, costed at about one billion euro (the most expensive motorway in the history of the state, kilometre for kilometre) will almost certainly be confirmed in December. We're definitely getting Dunkettle, Ringaskiddy, and Macroom, at least. We're getting far more than many other counties. Let's count our blessings and focus on the positives.

AugustusMinimus

Aontachtoir wrote: »

Water John wrote: »

I think Aontach your views are a bit coloured, blue perhaps. I have been fair I believe. No problem with delays because of recession, except nothing at all happened in Cork and both EK and MN gave us a slap of a wet fish, for asking.

John, I have been fair and objective. I'm simply not going to have any part of this persecutory belief that poor Cork has been singled out and shafted, and that Enda Kenny and Michael Noonan sat laughing in Dublin green-lighting motorways and major infrastructure projects all across Ireland except in Cork (where there are numerous Fine Gael TDs, I might add). It's just nonsense.

The recession is over. Money is flowing back into our coffers. Projects that were not affordable are looking achievable. The Cork-Limerick motorway, costed at about one billion euro (the most expensive motorway in the history of the state, kilometre for kilometre) will almost certainly be confirmed in December. We're definitely getting Dunkettle, Ringaskiddy, and Macroom, at least. We're getting far more than many other counties. Let's count our blessings and focus on the positives.

The M3 which is 50 km long cost €650m. That’s €13m per km.

The M20 scheme will be 80 km and is budgeted at 1 billion. That’s €12.5m per km.

And that’s ignoring inflation.

AugustusMinimus

Enda Kenny:

“Cork got its motorway to Dublin. It’s amazing how the expectations grow just as the economy starts to improve,”

What an utter ****

marno21

Raisins wrote: »

Be careful where you veer your rants about poor Cork not having enough motorways.

I know 2 people (very well) who were killed driving on the N17. I was absolutely delighted when the M17 opened yesterday.

The number of road deaths in east Galway was high, as unfortunately, with many parts of the country. Cork doesn't have a monopoly on deaths on the roads.

Believe me, I have no issue with the M17 opening. I drove it myself already and as someone who has used it previously it's a massive upgrade

But for a Government to spend €1.2bn on motorways and tell us they can't afford €1m on restarting the M20, that's what I have issue with.

marno21

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

The M3 which is 50 km long cost €650m. That’s €13m per km.

The M20 scheme will be 80 km and is budgeted at 1 billion. That’s €12.5m per km.

And that’s ignoring inflation.

The M20 including North Ring Road was priced at €800m. The M20 will be cheap as it includes a dual carriageway retrofit of around 20km of road.

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Enda Kenny:

“Cork got its motorway to Dublin. It’s amazing how the expectations grow just as the economy starts to improve,”

What an utter ****

Of course Galway with motorways to Dublin, Limerick and Tuam...

AugustusMinimus

Marno. Was thinking that 1 billion figure sounded ludicrous considering that large retrofit section and no major bridges or viaducts.

fonzy951

Dublin and Cork GDP pay for these roads basically. Workers in Cork are often stuck for over an hour in rush hour traffic in Dunkettle (busiest interchange outside of Dublin), and that project is delayed for years due to lack of funds while the M17/18 was funded along with the New Ross bypass.

The Dunkettle Interchange upgrade cost is estimated at €100 million, while M17/18 was €550 million. The Dunkettle upgrade is awaaaaaaay more necessary that those other projects, but not funded. Shame on you EK and MN, its no wonder the people of Cork are quite rightly furious.

marno21

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Marno. Was thinking that 1 billion figure sounded ludicrous considering that large retrofit section and no major bridges or viaducts.

The 1 billion figure was wheeled out after it was cancelled to make it look worth cancelling. 1 billion for a 80km motorway and ~10km link motorway across rural Cork (good land in fairness), 20km of which is already tarmaced and just requires dualling and a few link/parallel roads to be built, with just one major river crossing (Blackwater) is a bit much.

Reputable Rog

1 hr 35 to get from Pouladuff to Mallow this evening, that Included 15 minutes on O'Donovans Road, 35 minutes on Western Road, 15 minutes in Shanakeil and 20 minutes at Rathduff. Would have been longer if I hadn't gone into Blarney and turned right against the traffic.
Spoilt for infrastructure we are here in Cork.

Aontachtoir

fonzy951 wrote: »

Dublin and Cork GDP pay for these roads basically. Workers in Cork are often stuck for over an hour in rush hour traffic in Dunkettle (busiest interchange outside of Dublin), and that project is delayed for years due to lack of funds while the M17/18 was funded along with the New Ross bypass.

The Dunkettle Interchange upgrade cost is estimated at €100 million, while M17/18 was €550 million. The Dunkettle upgrade is awaaaaaaay more necessary that those other projects, but not funded. Shame on EK and MN for this self-serving corruption, its no wonder the people of Cork are quite rightly furious.

I'm not furious. I don't know any reasonable people in Cork who are furious, or who consider prioritising infrastructure developments that can be afforded and delivered in a time of recession to be "self-serving corruption" (exaggerate much?). Most people are able to recognize that the whole country can't grind to a halt waiting for the M20, and that the government has a duty to deliver priority projects all across the country. Spending what you can to deliver what you can seems pretty sensible to me.

I don't know what the funding status is for Dunkettle but everyone here, the council included, seem to think it's going ahead as planned in 2019. That would suggest the funding is secure.

Aontachtoir

fonzy951 wrote: »

Dublin and Cork GDP pay for these roads basically. Workers in Cork are often stuck for over an hour in rush hour traffic in Dunkettle (busiest interchange outside of Dublin), and that project is delayed for years due to lack of funds while the M17/18 was funded along with the New Ross bypass.

The Dunkettle Interchange upgrade cost is estimated at €100 million, while M17/18 was €550 million. The Dunkettle upgrade is awaaaaaaay more necessary that those other projects, but not funded. Shame on EK and MN for this self-serving corruption, its no wonder the people of Cork are quite rightly furious.

I'm not furious. I don't know any reasonable people in Cork who are furious, or who consider prioritising infrastructure developments that can be afforded and delivered in a time of recession to be "self-serving corruption" (exaggerate much?). Most people are able to recognize that the whole country can't grind to a halt waiting for the M20, and that the government has a duty to deliver priority projects all across the country. Spending what you can to deliver what you can seems pretty sensible to me.

I don't know what the funding status is for Dunkettle but everyone here, the council included, seem to think it's going ahead as planned in 2019. That would suggest the funding is secure.

Reputable Rog

Aontachtoir wrote: »

I'm not furious. I don't know any reasonable people in Cork who are furious, or who consider prioritising infrastructure developments that can be afforded and delivered in a time of recession to be "self-serving corruption" (exaggerate much?). Most people are able to recognize that the whole country can't grind to a halt waiting for the M20, and that the government has a duty to deliver priority projects all across the country. Spending what you can to deliver what you can seems pretty sensible to me.

I don't know what the funding status is for Dunkettle but everyone here, the council included, seem to think it's going ahead as planned in 2019. That would suggest the funding is secure.

You were infuriating the first time. No need to repeat yourself.

boardsuser1

Reputable Rog wrote: »

1 hr 35 to get from Pouladuff to Mallow this evening, that Included 15 minutes on O'Donovans Road, 35 minutes on Western Road, 15 minutes in Shanakeil and 20 minutes at Rathduff. Would have been longer if I hadn't gone into Blarney and turned right against the traffic.
Spoilt for infrastructure we are here in Cork.

I seen your lady friend in a different vehicle this evening, I thought I was seeing things.

grogi

Aontachtoir wrote: »

I'm not furious. I don't know any reasonable people in Cork who are furious, or who consider prioritising infrastructure developments that can be afforded and delivered in a time of recession to be "self-serving corruption" (exaggerate much?). Most people are able to recognize that the whole country can't grind to a halt waiting for the M20, and that the government has a duty to deliver priority projects all across the country. Spending what you can to deliver what you can seems pretty sensible to me.

That's fine. But the Government should think strategically and not forget about the benefit of each €1 spent. You can spent billion euro doing projects here and there and delivering 3 times more km - but which don't serve any strategic purpose. M20/NRR are really required to counterbalance overcrowded Dublin...

Reputable Rog

Cork Truck Driver wrote: »

I seen your lady friend in a different vehicle this evening, I thought I was seeing things.

It's kind of a reverse Duel scenario in that everyone is terrified of the vehicle in front as opposed to the one behind.
What is driving now? My wife will be relieved as she has the same car and was paranoid that everyone thought it was her.

fonzy951

Aontachtoir wrote: »

I'm not furious. I don't know any reasonable people in Cork who are furious, or who consider prioritising infrastructure developments that can be afforded and delivered in a time of recession to be "self-serving corruption" (exaggerate much?). Most people are able to recognize that the whole country can't grind to a halt waiting for the M20, and that the government has a duty to deliver priority projects all across the country. Spending what you can to deliver what you can seems pretty sensible to me.

I don't know what the funding status is for Dunkettle but everyone here, the council included, seem to think it's going ahead as planned in 2019. That would suggest the funding is secure.

LOL, nah commuters in Cork love queuing for hours everyday at Dunkettle, up to 100,000 vehicles use it every day. Have a chat to a few of them and you'll get your answer fairly quickly.

Bottom line is this Dunkettle upgrade has been delayed due to lack of funds for years, but M17/18 got funded. Traffic on M17/18 is only a fraction of Dunkettle. Dunkettle cost is only €100 million compared to €550 million for M17/18. Do I need to say more or will I draw a little picture for ya.

EK and MN pulled a fast one, self-serving cowboys.

marno21

fonzy951 wrote: »

LOL, nah commuters in Cork love queuing for hours everyday at Dunkettle, up to 100,000 vehicles use it every day. Have a chat to a few of them and you'll get your answer fairly quickly.

Bottom line is this Dunkettle upgrade has been delayed due to lack of funds for years, but M17/18 got funded. Traffic on M17/18 is only a fraction of Dunkettle. Dunkettle cost is only €100 million compared to €550 million for M17/18. Do I need to say more or will I draw a little picture for ya.

EK and MN pulled a fast one, it was self-serving corruption, no way round it.

Dunkettle has a benefit:cost ratio of 10:1.

The Kenny expressway through Roscommon has a benefit:cost ratio of 1.4.

Aontachtoir

fonzy951 wrote: »

Aontachtoir wrote: »

I'm not furious. I don't know any reasonable people in Cork who are furious, or who consider prioritising infrastructure developments that can be afforded and delivered in a time of recession to be "self-serving corruption" (exaggerate much?). Most people are able to recognize that the whole country can't grind to a halt waiting for the M20, and that the government has a duty to deliver priority projects all across the country. Spending what you can to deliver what you can seems pretty sensible to me.

I don't know what the funding status is for Dunkettle but everyone here, the council included, seem to think it's going ahead as planned in 2019. That would suggest the funding is secure.

LOL, nah commuters in Cork love queuing for hours everyday at Dunkettle, up to 100,000 vehicles use it every day. Have a chat to a few of them and you'll get your answer fairly quickly.

Bottom line is this Dunkettle upgrade has been delayed due to lack of funds for years, but M17/18 got funded. Traffic on M17/18 is only a fraction of Dunkettle. Dunkettle cost is only €100 million compared to €550 million for M17/18. Do I need to say more or will I draw a little picture for ya.

EK and MN pulled a fast one, self-serving cowboys.

I don't understand your reasoning. You seem to be simultaneously claiming that Dunkettle should have been built first because it was cheaper than the M17/M18, but also that the M17/M18 should have been delayed until the far, far more expensive M20 was complete.
To me, it sounds like your argument is essentially that road construction across the whole country should grind to a halt until Cork gets every last project completed. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but that seems to be the thrust of it.

Water John

I think of one word, Stepaside.

boardsuser1

Water John wrote: »

I think of one word, Stepaside.

Is that you Shane?

marno21

I have no issue with Dunkettle not being built because the money for large scale state funded capital projects wasn't there. However, it is now and Dunkettle should be starting this year

My issue is that for the last few years the M20 remained frozen while money was pumped into getting 4x N5 schemes built and planned and pet projects such as the Listowel and Oilgate bypasses. The M20 could be ready to go in 2019/2020 but Brendan Howlin takes precedence.

fonzy951

Aontachtoir wrote: »

I don't understand your reasoning. You seem to be simultaneously claiming that Dunkettle should have been built first because it was cheaper than the M17/M18, but also that the M17/M18 should have been delayed until the far, far more expensive M20 was complete.
To me, it sounds like your argument is essentially that road construction across the whole country should grind to a halt until Cork gets every last project completed. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but that seems to be the thrust of it.

LOL, What? was fairly clear. But here is a quick summary:
Dunkettle Upgrade = Very badly needed, but not funded (€100 million cost).
M17/18 Noonan/Kenny Expressway = Not as badly needed, but received funding with a smile from Enda and Mick (€550 million).

boardsuser1

The N20 is closed just before Rathduff village.

Chaos is going to ensue.