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M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

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    #4022
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,413 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Here's the most detailed route plan that was published in 2009:


    M20 South: Blarney to Velvetstown
    http://www.corkrdo.ie/files/M20_Cork_Limerick_Motorway%20Scheme_Preliminary%20Design_June_2009/handout_01_02.pdf


    M20 North: Velvetstown to Attyflin
    http://www.corkrdo.ie/files/M20_Cork_Limerick_Motorway%20Scheme_Preliminary%20Design_June_2009/handout_03_04.pdf


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    #4023
    pigtown
    Registered Users Posts: 1,314 ✭✭✭pigtown


    I'm afraid I'm out of arguments. The motorway will result in a certain type of development that will be car based which in turn will be suburban sprawl. Current best practice is large, dense, urban centres focused around public transport, easy access to services, and city living. This is the approach advocated by the ESRI and is what most major CEOs of multinationals call for when they are looking for new locations.

    It's fairly clear that Irish people don't want this type of development though which will inevitably mean that Dublin's dominance will continue. As flawed as it is, it's the closest thing we have in Ireland to a large city with reasonable facilities.


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    #4024
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,413 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    pigtown wrote: »
    I'm afraid I'm out of arguments. The motorway will result in a certain type of development that will be car based which in turn will be suburban sprawl. Current best practice is large, dense, urban centres focused around public transport, easy access to services, and city living. This is the approach advocated by the ESRI and is what most major CEOs of multinationals call for when they are looking for new locations.

    It's fairly clear that Irish people don't want this type of development though which will inevitably mean that Dublin's dominance will continue. As flawed as it is, it's the closest thing we have in Ireland to a large city with reasonable facilities.

    The motorway will if planning permission is granted to such development. Which is currently happening without the motorway

    People from the area including the two cities need a safe and efficient way of travelling between the two. Buses and HGVs especially. Express busses will be 1h15 after this opens, which will be useful. Bus and rail transit times between the cities are pathetic at the minute


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    #4025
    Frostybrew
    Registered Users Posts: 357 ✭✭Frostybrew


    pigtown wrote: »
    I'm afraid I'm out of arguments. The motorway will result in a certain type of development that will be car based which in turn will be suburban sprawl. Current best practice is large, dense, urban centres focused around public transport, easy access to services, and city living. This is the approach advocated by the ESRI and is what most major CEOs of multinationals call for when they are looking for new locations.

    It's fairly clear that Irish people don't want this type of development though which will inevitably mean that Dublin's dominance will continue. As flawed as it is, it's the closest thing we have in Ireland to a large city with reasonable facilities.

    I don't think you are familiar with the planning situation in the greater Cork area. Most of the areas that have been zoned for future residential development are on the railway lines or in areas that will be served by rapid transit. Areas such as Blarney, Monard, the Docklands, north of Ballyvolane, Cobh, Carrigtohill, and Midleton. This has been the policy for over forty years and both councils have been very proactive in it's implementation.

    It is very difficult to get planning permission for large scale residential development outside of these areas.

    The M20 is necessary because the current route is heavily trafficked, and grossly not fit for purpose.


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    #4026
    pajoguy
    Registered Users Posts: 825 ✭✭✭pajoguy


    marno21 wrote: »
    Here's the most detailed route plan that was published in 2009:


    M20 South: Blarney to Velvetstown
    http://www.corkrdo.ie/files/M20_Cork_Limerick_Motorway%20Scheme_Preliminary%20Design_June_2009/handout_01_02.pdf


    M20 North: Velvetstown to Attyflin
    http://www.corkrdo.ie/files/M20_Cork_Limerick_Motorway%20Scheme_Preliminary%20Design_June_2009/handout_03_04.pdf

    That junction design for patrickswell s horrendous. That will surely be revised to provide a free flow junction considering the traffic heading west.


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    #4027
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,413 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    pajoguy wrote: »
    That junction design for patrickswell s horrendous. That will surely be revised to provide a free flow junction considering the traffic heading west.
    Plan at the time was for the N21 to depart the M20 at the Croom interchange. The road from Patrickswell-Adare (existing N21) would become a regional road


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    #4028
    jaxxx
    Registered Users Posts: 3,230 ✭✭✭jaxxx


    marno21 wrote: »
    Here's the most detailed route plan that was published in 2009:


    M20 South: Blarney to Velvetstown
    http://www.corkrdo.ie/files/M20_Cork_Limerick_Motorway%20Scheme_Preliminary%20Design_June_2009/handout_01_02.pdf


    M20 North: Velvetstown to Attyflin
    http://www.corkrdo.ie/files/M20_Cork_Limerick_Motorway%20Scheme_Preliminary%20Design_June_2009/handout_03_04.pdf

    If I'm reading that right, then there's no direct slip road from the M20 from Cork onto the N21 towards Adare, so you'd have to come off the motorway from that most northern roundabout, through the next one and right at the third one. Unless of course there is going to be an earlier bypass for Adare at what would be the Croom Junction.

    Wonder if they're gonna use those '09 plans or devise a new route.


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    #4029
    Aontachtoir
    Registered Users Posts: 574 ✭✭✭Aontachtoir


    jaxxx wrote: »
    Wonder if they're gonna use those '09 plans or devise a new route.
    Hopefully they aren't obliged to restart the entire route selection process. Even if they aren't, there will have to be some redesign to the end junction near Attyflin, as the N21 is due to be turned into the M21. Presumably we'll have to wait for that road to get planning permission before the final draft of the M20 can be submitted for planning too.


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    #4030
    Aontachtoir
    Registered Users Posts: 574 ✭✭✭Aontachtoir


    jaxxx wrote: »
    Wonder if they're gonna use those '09 plans or devise a new route.
    Hopefully they aren't obliged to restart the entire route selection process. Even if they aren't, there will have to be some redesign to the end junction near Attyflin, as the N21 is due to be turned into the M21. Presumably we'll have to wait for that road to get planning permission before the final draft of the M20 can be submitted for planning too.


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    #4031
    jaxxx
    Registered Users Posts: 3,230 ✭✭✭jaxxx


    Aontachtoir wrote: »
    Hopefully they aren't obliged to restart the entire route selection process. Even if they aren't, there will have to be some redesign to the end junction near Attyflin, as the N21 is due to be turned into the M21. Presumably we'll have to wait for that road to get planning permission before the final draft of the M20 can be submitted for planning too.

    Well as long as they do a better job of it than they did at the M20 interchange near Roxboro where you can't get directly into the city..... Of course it's worth mentioning that access to the city was available until the tunnel/M7 was hooked up to it.

    You can tell I'm from Limerick can't you? If you'll excuse me, I must go off and bang my head off of a wall because of the sheer frustration this 'issue' causes me...

    *thud*


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    #4032
    Isambard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭Isambard


    pigtown wrote: »
    This discussion would be much easier to have in person:)



    Sorry, I'm not from Cork so my knowledge of it is a bit patchy. But the type of development that has taken place in these villages is exactly what we can expect from motorway, and therefore car, based planning.
    All I know about Mitchelstown is I drive past it everyday and have never even considered venturing into the place.



    .

    My mistake, thought you were from there, must be the name...


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    #4033
    Isambard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭Isambard


    Reputable Rog wrote: »
    The M20 would be great for Mallow,getting the trucks out of the town would bring back a lot life to the town.
    It could conceivably experience a huge population boom as well, halfway effectively from Cork and Limerick with lower house prices than both.

    not so sure, I think it could kill the few remaining shops and leave it as just a dormitory.


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    #4034
    Isambard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭Isambard


    jaxxx wrote: »
    If I'm reading that right, then there's no direct slip road from the M20 from Cork onto the N21 towards Adare, so you'd have to come off the motorway from that most northern roundabout, through the next one and right at the third one. Unless of course there is going to be an earlier bypass for Adare at what would be the Croom Junction.

    Wonder if they're gonna use those '09 plans or devise a new route.

    I imagine you'd come off at the junction immediately south and use the old road to Patrickswell, joining the M21 there.


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    #4035
    Reputable Rog
    Registered Users Posts: 2,088 ✭✭✭Reputable Rog


    Isambard wrote: »
    not so sure, I think it could kill the few remaining shops and leave it as just a dormitory.

    At the moment it's leaking business to towns like Kanturk and Charleville as well Blackpool and The Crescent.
    People heading to Kanturk and Charleville is a result of the traffic congestion in the town.
    The roadworks to install the plaza resulted in a large number of business closures, probably the most ill conceived idea ever in Mallow.


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    #4036
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,472 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Mallow should do well as effectively, the capital of North Cork. Need to look at Midelton, as a town that has done well. Most towns benefit from bypass. It returns to its natural function, in its local area.


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    #4037
    pajoguy
    Registered Users Posts: 825 ✭✭✭pajoguy


    Isambard wrote: »
    I imagine you'd come off at the junction immediately south and use the old road to Patrickswell, joining the M21 there.

    That junction will have to be fully free flow in all directions to future proof it. It need to cater for traffic from Adare heading south as well as from Croom heading west also free flow.


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    #4038
    pigtown
    Registered Users Posts: 1,314 ✭✭✭pigtown


    Frostybrew wrote: »
    I don't think you are familiar with the planning situation in the greater Cork area. Most of the areas that have been zoned for future residential development are on the railway lines or in areas that will be served by rapid transit. Areas such as Blarney, Monard, the Docklands, north of Ballyvolane, Cobh, Carrigtohill, and Midleton. This has been the policy for over forty years and both councils have been very proactive in it's implementation.

    It is very difficult to get planning permission for large scale residential development outside of these areas.

    The M20 is necessary because the current route is heavily trafficked, and grossly not fit for purpose.

    I don't want to sidetrack the thread into Cork's planning issues but I'm familiar enough with the situation to know that the CASP plan hasn't always been followed, plenty of decisions have been made that are directly contrary to its aims, and there has been a bigger reluctance on behalf of the two councils involved to adhere to it in recent years.


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    #4039
    Reputable Rog
    Registered Users Posts: 2,088 ✭✭✭Reputable Rog


    pigtown wrote: »
    but I'm familiar enough with the situation to know that the CASP plan hasn't always been followed, plenty of decisions have been made that are directly contrary to its aims, and there has been a bigger reluctance on behalf of the two councils involved to adhere to it in recent years.

    You might elaborate please?


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    #4040
    grogi
    Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    Reputable Rog wrote: »
    You might elaborate please?

    For me it would be Manor Farm, Coolkellure in the City and Coolkellure in Ovens.

    Those are very new estates, but they are an excellent illustration of urban crawl and car based planning. Last time I checked there wasn't even a sidewalk to get to Coolketture...


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    #4041
    Reputable Rog
    Registered Users Posts: 2,088 ✭✭✭Reputable Rog


    grogi wrote: »
    For me it would be Manor Farm, Coolkellure in the City and Coolkellure in Ovens.

    Those are very new estates, but they are an excellent illustration of urban crawl and car based planning.

    They do broadly comply with the principle aim of CASP bad and all as they are.
    Manor Farm is in the County.


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    #4042
    AugustusMinimus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,553 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    grogi wrote: »
    For me it would be Manor Farm, Coolkellure in the City and Coolkellure in Ovens.

    Those are very new estates, but they are an excellent illustration of urban crawl and car based planning. Last time I checked there wasn't even a sidewalk to get to Coolketture...

    This is the fault of Cork Co Co who don’t seem to care about access to these new builds at all. Lehenaghmore is a disgrace.


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    #4043
    Reputable Rog
    Registered Users Posts: 2,088 ✭✭✭Reputable Rog


    AugustusMinimus wrote: »
    This is the fault of Cork Co Co who don’t seem to care about access to these new builds at all. Lehenaghmore is a disgrace.

    That is the fault of the elected members.


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    #4044
    AugustusMinimus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,553 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    Reputable Rog wrote: »
    That is the fault of the elected members.

    Cork City Council do things properly. However access improvements to new estates is an afterthought for the county council. A good reason why the city boundary extension needs the go ahead.


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    #4045
    Reputable Rog
    Registered Users Posts: 2,088 ✭✭✭Reputable Rog


    AugustusMinimus wrote: »
    Cork City Council do things properly. However access improvements to new estates is an afterthought for the county council. A good reason why the city boundary extension needs the go ahead.

    I would say that they are both equally as bad as each other, Mahon Point springs to mind when you mention the City.


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    #4046
    Isambard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭Isambard


    pajoguy wrote: »
    That junction will have to be fully free flow in all directions to future proof it. It need to cater for traffic from Adare heading south as well as from Croom heading west also free flow.

    The original plan had the M21/M20 junction west of the Patrickswell junction which presumably would continue to serve the N20 as now.


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    #4047
    Isambard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭Isambard


    Reputable Rog wrote: »
    At the moment it's leaking business to towns like Kanturk and Charleville as well Blackpool and The Crescent.
    People heading to Kanturk and Charleville is a result of the traffic congestion in the town.
    The roadworks to install the plaza resulted in a large number of business closures, probably the most ill conceived idea ever in Mallow.

    The N20 plaza you mean? simply a rebranding of what was already there. I don't recall any roadworks


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    #4048
    Reputable Rog
    Registered Users Posts: 2,088 ✭✭✭Reputable Rog


    Isambard wrote: »
    The N20 plaza you mean? simply a rebranding of what was already there. I don't recall any roadworks

    Jesus wept. The pedestrian plaza at the bottom of Main Street, roadworks went on for over a year.


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    #4049
    Isambard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,795 ✭✭✭Isambard


    Reputable Rog wrote: »
    Jesus wept. The pedestrian plaza at the bottom of Main Street, roadworks went on for over a year.

    ah right, is that what they call it? makes sense now. total disaster


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    #4050
    pigtown
    Registered Users Posts: 1,314 ✭✭✭pigtown


    Reputable Rog wrote: »
    You might elaborate please?

    Again I don't want to get sidetracked but as others have mentioned, Mahon Point, approved by the city council, is totally out of lie with the CASP idea.
    Airport Business Park was initially specifically for aviation related business that by nature needed to be based at the airport. All of the other businesses that are there now could make a huge difference if they were in the city.
    The proposed new science park to the west of the city has made it into the development plan despite its location.

    There are others, I only bring it up as a response to claims that planning can prevent sprawl along the M20. I don't believe the planners can resist the pressure brought by local and national politicians, as well as industry and public opinion.


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    #4051
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,413 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    pigtown wrote: »
    Again I don't want to get sidetracked but as others have mentioned, Mahon Point, approved by the city council, is totally out of lie with the CASP idea.
    Airport Business Park was initially specifically for aviation related business that by nature needed to be based at the airport. All of the other businesses that are there now could make a huge difference if they were in the city.
    The proposed new science park to the west of the city has made it into the development plan despite its location.

    There are others, I only bring it up as a response to claims that planning can prevent sprawl along the M20. I don't believe the planners can resist the pressure brought by local and national politicians, as well as industry and public opinion.
    Planning mistakes of the past are no reason not to build an M20. An M20 is critical for the further development of the region, there is no alternative.

    Planning legislation will prevent a repeat of the mistakes of the past, not throwing the baby out with the bathwater.


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