M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

pigtown

How can anyone claim there is no alternative when to my knowledge there has been no investigation into alternatives?

And in my opinion building the M20 is quite possibly a repeat of the mistakes of the past, a comprehensive study of the effects of this motorway and a comparison with possible alternatives would give more certainty but for some reason nobody with influence seems interested in this.

AugustusMinimus

pigtown wrote: »

How can anyone claim there is no alternative when to my knowledge there has been no investigation into alternatives?

And in my opinion building the M20 is quite possibly a repeat of the mistakes of the past, a comprehensive study of the effects of this motorway and a comparison with possible alternatives would give more certainty but for some reason nobody with influence seems interested in this.

I see the opposite. No interest at all in building this road coupled with people constantly requesting an alternative route.

The Limerick Galway railway should be a warning about what a rebuilt Cork Limerick line would result in.

Cookiemunster

pigtown wrote: »

How can anyone claim there is no alternative when to my knowledge there has been no investigation into alternatives?

And in my opinion building the M20 is quite possibly a repeat of the mistakes of the past, a comprehensive study of the effects of this motorway and a comparison with possible alternatives would give more certainty but for some reason nobody with influence seems interested in this.

The route selection process 10 years ago investigated and ruled out the alternatives. The situation on the ground hasn't changed in that time.

pigtown

I'm 99% certain that there has never been a serious study done on upgrading the Cork-Limerick rail line, either a new direct route or even a turn at Limerick Junction so that people don't have to change trains.
And I know there's been talk about light rail for Cork but I've never seen a study done on what it might cost.
Limerick's public transport isn't reliable and I'm certain that a better transport network has never been seriously investigated.

And I know to lots of people the very idea of investing in buses and trains is ludicrous but this is exactly what they are trying to do in Dublin to help with their congestion and housing issues. It's what's done around the world in cities big and small as a matter of course.
It's what will ensure that Cork doesn't grind to a halt when the projected 115,000 extra people live there by 2040.

Frostybrew

pigtown wrote: »

I'm 99% certain that there has never been a serious study done on upgrading the Cork-Limerick rail line, either a new direct route or even a turn at Limerick Junction so that people don't have to change trains.
And I know there's been talk about light rail for Cork but I've never seen a study done on what it might cost.
Limerick's public transport isn't reliable and I'm certain that a better transport network has never been seriously investigated.

And I know to lots of people the very idea of investing in buses and trains is ludicrous but this is exactly what they are trying to do in Dublin to help with their congestion and housing issues. It's what's done around the world in cities big and small as a matter of course.
It's what will ensure that Cork doesn't grind to a halt when the projected 115,000 extra people live there by 2040.

http://www.corkcity.ie/services/roadstransportation/transportationdivision/corkareatransitsystemstudy/CATS%20Study%20Final%20Report%20Feb%202010_opt1.pdf

Study on Cork rapid transit. Out of date, but finds a positive cost benefit ratio for both LRT and BRT in Cork.

Irish Rail did a rail needs study for various projects a few years back, but did not find a positive benefit for a direct Cork to Limerick rail solution. I'll see if I can dig it out.

marno21

pigtown wrote: »

How can anyone claim there is no alternative when to my knowledge there has been no investigation into alternatives?

And in my opinion building the M20 is quite possibly a repeat of the mistakes of the past, a comprehensive study of the effects of this motorway and a comparison with possible alternatives would give more certainty but for some reason nobody with influence seems interested in this.

There was a couple of years back, an Irish Rail study as part of a study into reopening closed lines. Lines such as the Western Rail Corrdior and the line to Youghal were studied too.

Aa part of the appraisal of this new M20 scheme, given its cost all options will be explored to determine which is the best value for money. This will be published in due course

Frostybrew

pigtown wrote: »

I'm 99% certain that there has never been a serious study done on upgrading the Cork-Limerick rail line, either a new direct route or even a turn at Limerick Junction so that people don't have to change trains.
And I know there's been talk about light rail for Cork but I've never seen a study done on what it might cost.
Limerick's public transport isn't reliable and I'm certain that a better transport network has never been seriously investigated.

And I know to lots of people the very idea of investing in buses and trains is ludicrous but this is exactly what they are trying to do in Dublin to help with their congestion and housing issues. It's what's done around the world in cities big and small as a matter of course.
It's what will ensure that Cork doesn't grind to a halt when the projected 115,000 extra people live there by 2040.

I wasn't able to find the full report, but the results are mentioned here.

http://www.irishrail.ie/media/irishrail_28febfinal_part21.pdf

I'll admit that it doesn't look like a very robust study. It appears to only take the population of Charleville and intermediate towns and villages into account when making an appraisal. Not the population of the greater Cork and greater Limerick areas, where most users would originate if this were to be built. Also there is no proper cost benefit analysis, only a scoring system that looks like it was made up while down in the pub.

The tone of the report is also interesting in that it seems to promote a "sure you have a good road, why would you need a railway" attitude. This is not exactly what you would like to hear from a railway company. I'd love to know who exactly are the board and senior management of IR and what their background and affiliations are.

I'll concede that a much more robust and comprehensive study are required. However, it's not an alternative to the M20 for reasons many have already pointed out in this thread. There is the possibility for a complimentary rail service, and this should be given a more thorough investigation.

pigtown

Frostybrew wrote: »

http://www.corkcity.ie/services/roadstransportation/transportationdivision/corkareatransitsystemstudy/CATS%20Study%20Final%20Report%20Feb%202010_opt1.pdf

Study on Cork rapid transit. Out of date, but finds a positive cost benefit ratio for both LRT and BRT in Cork.

Thanks for this, I stand corrected. It shows that the preferred solution of a citywide bus network upgrade and a BRT for Mahon-Ballincollig would cost approx €550 million in 2009. Does anyone know how the city council responded?

Frostybrew wrote: »

Irish Rail did a rail needs study for various projects a few years back, but did not find a positive benefit for a direct Cork to Limerick rail solution. I'll see if I can dig it out.

marno21 wrote: »

There was a couple of years back, an Irish Rail study as part of a study into reopening closed lines. Lines such as the Western Rail Corrdior and the line to Youghal were studied too.

I found their 2030 Rail Network Strategy Review http://www.irishrail.ie/media/irishrail_28febfinal_part21.pdf
I looks at the possibility of connecting the regional cities by rail and finds against this idea. It's not very detailed but I find their methods strange all the same.

First they investigated the provision of a direct line from Charleville to Limerick via Patrickswell but appear to have viewed it in isolation, ignoring the fact that it would be a Limerick-Cork line as opposed to a Limerick-Charleville one.

They then claim that rail connections between regional cities are only viable if the cities' hinterlands overlap to an extent. Limerick and Galway were found to have an overlap (Ennis I assume) as was Limerick-Waterford to a limited extent (no specifics though). They then claim that no overlap exists between Limerick and Cork. This map immediately refutes Irish Rail's claims http://census.cso.ie/p6map43/

They analyse the potential of a Galway-Limerick-Cork service with a change at Limerick Junction and dismiss its viability but never do they consider a new track at the Junction to allow for through services. As it stands a Limerick Cork direct service would take less than 1hr30mins.

marno21 wrote: »

Aa part of the appraisal of this new M20 scheme, given its cost all options will be explored to determine which is the best value for money. This will be published in due course

That would be interesting to see but they've already decided to build the road so it doesn't matter to them what they find as part of the appraisal.

pigtown

My thoughts exactly Frostybrew

Does anybody know if there's a service station planned?

Isambard

pigtown wrote: »

Thanks for this, I stand corrected. It shows that the preferred solution of a citywide bus network upgrade and a BRT for Mahon-Ballincollig would cost approx €550 million in 2009. Does anyone know how the city council responded?





I found their 2030 Rail Network Strategy Review http://www.irishrail.ie/media/irishrail_28febfinal_part21.pdf
I looks at the possibility of connecting the regional cities by rail and finds against this idea. It's not very detailed but I find their methods strange all the same.

First they investigated the provision of a direct line from Charleville to Limerick via Patrickswell but appear to have viewed it in isolation, ignoring the fact that it would be a Limerick-Cork line as opposed to a Limerick-Charleville one.

They then claim that rail connections between regional cities are only viable if the cities' hinterlands overlap to an extent. Limerick and Galway were found to have an overlap (Ennis I assume) as was Limerick-Waterford to a limited extent (no specifics though). They then claim that no overlap exists between Limerick and Cork. This map immediately refutes Irish Rail's claims http://census.cso.ie/p6map43/

They analyse the potential of a Galway-Limerick-Cork service with a change at Limerick Junction and dismiss its viability but never do they consider a new track at the Junction to allow for through services. As it stands a Limerick Cork direct service would take less than 1hr30mins.



That would be interesting to see but they've already decided to build the road so it doesn't matter to them what they find as part of the appraisal.

through services Cork to Limerick at the junction are perfectly possible without an extra line surely. It's the Waterford services that involve a reversal. extending the Cork to Mallow shuttle with the addition of a few extra, would look to me to be a good move, providing a through Cork to Limerick service which could be further enhanced by new stations such as Buttevant or Knocklong. Would be much cheaper than reviving the Charleville to Limerick line.

AugustusMinimus

Has a direct Cork - Limerick service ever run via Limerick Junction?

Frostybrew

pigtown wrote: »

I looks at the possibility of connecting the regional cities by rail and finds against this idea. It's not very detailed but I find their methods strange all the same.

First they investigated the provision of a direct line from Charleville to Limerick via Patrickswell but appear to have viewed it in isolation, ignoring the fact that it would be a Limerick-Cork line as opposed to a Limerick-Charleville one.

They then claim that rail connections between regional cities are only viable if the cities' hinterlands overlap to an extent. Limerick and Galway were found to have an overlap (Ennis I assume) as was Limerick-Waterford to a limited extent (no specifics though). They then claim that no overlap exists between Limerick and Cork. This map immediately refutes Irish Rail's claims http://census.cso.ie/p6map43/

They analyse the potential of a Galway-Limerick-Cork service with a change at Limerick Junction and dismiss its viability but never do they consider a new track at the Junction to allow for through services. As it stands a Limerick Cork direct service would take less than 1hr30mins.



That would be interesting to see but they've already decided to build the road so it doesn't matter to them what they find as part of the appraisal.

Yes, they also find Tuam to Athenry as being one of the most viable, despite having a motorway as competition; which seems to contradict their findings in other places such as Youghal to Midleton.

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Has a direct Cork - Limerick service ever run via Limerick Junction?

There was a direct Cork to Ballina service until 1976 AFAIK.

pigtown

Isambard wrote: »

through services Cork to Limerick at the junction are perfectly possible without an extra line surely. It's the Waterford services that involve a reversal. extending the Cork to Mallow shuttle with the addition of a few extra, would look to me to be a good move, providing a through Cork to Limerick service which could be further enhanced by new stations such as Buttevant or Knocklong. Would be much cheaper than reviving the Charleville to Limerick line.

As far as I know it's not physically possible, and it definitely wasn't considered by Irish Rail

hans aus dtschl

pigtown wrote: »

I'm 99% certain that there has never been a serious study done on upgrading the Cork-Limerick rail line, either a new direct route or even a turn at Limerick Junction so that people don't have to change trains.
And I know there's been talk about light rail for Cork but I've never seen a study done on what it might cost.
Limerick's public transport isn't reliable and I'm certain that a better transport network has never been seriously investigated.

And I know to lots of people the very idea of investing in buses and trains is ludicrous but this is exactly what they are trying to do in Dublin to help with their congestion and housing issues. It's what's done around the world in cities big and small as a matter of course.
It's what will ensure that Cork doesn't grind to a halt when the projected 115,000 extra people live there by 2040.

Cork rail tunnel can't handle standard size shipping containers. North Esk is closed, and the port is relocating from Tivoli to Ringaskiddy. Rail is unfortunately unsuitable for freight.

I would love if it were suitable, and I agree that we should invest more in rail infrastructure but unfortunately this particular end-to-end route is unlikely to be profitable on passenger numbers alone. I have had the privilege of seeing the plans for Monard/Rathpeacon stops when they were announced around 15 years ago: this is the next potential development for rail on this line, not Cork-Limerick services.

HGV's need to use the Cork-Limerick corridor. Much of that HGV traffic is local in origin/destination rather than end-to-end: the road needs to be upgraded for these HGV and local traffic movements alone.

I think both are needed, rail links and the M20, by the way. But the rail link probably needs to have a new more stations on Cork's northside.

JCX BXC

Just to point out, a Cork-Limerick non stop service is currently possible, there is a turn in place at Limerick Junction at the moment.

kub

I am confused about the Cork rail tunnel and standard sized shipping containers.
How come the freight trains that used to run between NET in Marino Point back in the 80's were able to use the tunnel for the journey to Arklow?
Surely those tanks were the same dimensions as standard shipping containers.

Isambard

"the next development" on the Cork line makes it sound as if developments happen every 5 minutes on the line whereas I don't think anything has changed in the 30 years I have known it.

markodaly

pigtown wrote: »

I'm 99% certain that there has never been a serious study done on upgrading the Cork-Limerick rail line, either a new direct route or even a turn at Limerick Junction so that people don't have to change trains.
And I know there's been talk about light rail for Cork but I've never seen a study done on what it might cost.
Limerick's public transport isn't reliable and I'm certain that a better transport network has never been seriously investigated.

And I know to lots of people the very idea of investing in buses and trains is ludicrous but this is exactly what they are trying to do in Dublin to help with their congestion and housing issues. It's what's done around the world in cities big and small as a matter of course.
It's what will ensure that Cork doesn't grind to a halt when the projected 115,000 extra people live there by 2040.

First of all, can we get over the obsession of inter-city rail? Its too expensive and we do not have the population to make high speed rail viable. What we do have is a small country geographicly, where we have already linked most of of urban centres to Dublin.

Next step, finish this out. Start upgrading the national routes from Dublin to the likes of Sligo, Derry which is on the cards.

At the same time, link up these other regional urban areas.
It should be on like an orbital route say:
Roslare (important post Brexit) -> Waterford -> Cork -> Limerick -> Shannon -> Galway -> Sligo -> Derry

Some of this is already done. M20 is like a keystone to this idea and when that is done, all you need to do is expand this route northwards from Tuam and eastwards from Cork to Waterford

It doesn't all have to be Motorway standard but you get the idea. There are also numerous other towns on this route that will benefit from this, like Dungarvan, Mallow, Ennis, Letterkenny.

I do agree about improved urban transport inside these cities, higher density developments etc.

The biggest issue here is to build up. Especially in the core of the likes of Dublin, Cork and Limerick. Ten story developments with family friendly apartments, next to transport, bike lanes or areas of work.

There is two strategies here. One to connect Ireland with each other the other is the sustainable development of our urban areas.

Sam Russell

Mod: Time to signal a halt to rail discussion - even if it is Cork to Limerick.

Reputable Rog

Sam Russell wrote: »

Mod: Time to signal a halt to rail discussion - even if it is Cork to Limerick.

Pardon the puns.

Isambard

first priority to my mind is a Blarney to Patrickswell motorway.
The North ring can come after but shouldn't detract from the M20 planning and definitely any thought of routing the road via anywhere else should be firmly filed in the basement , guarded by Leopards in a locked filing cabinet.

boardsuser1

Isambard wrote: »

first priority to my mind is a Blarney to Patrickswell motorway.
The North ring can come after but shouldn't detract from the M20 planning and definitely any thought of routing the road via anywhere else should be firmly filed in the basement , guarded by Leopards in a locked filing cabinet.

Doing Blarney to patrickswell will save a fortune in itself.

While Mallow probably needs a bypass of its own, Buttevant and Charleville don’t and the motorway will fix that.

Has an exit junction been included for Buttevant in the plans now or is it still the plan to go without one? The locals weren’t impressed with the plans I recall.

Was it mentioned somewhere that they would prefer if it ties in with the Adare bypass?

Reputable Rog

Cork Truck Driver wrote: »

Doing Blarney to patrickswell will save a fortune in itself.

While Mallow probably needs a bypass of its own, Buttevant and Charleville don’t and the motorway will fix that.

Has an exit junction been included for Buttevant in the plans now or is it still the plan to go without one? The locals weren’t impressed with the plans I recall.

Was it mentioned somewhere that they would prefer if it ties in with the Adare bypass?

I'm not convinced that a junction is needed for Buttevant.
Ballyhea will want one next and they'll all be out marching on the motorway after mass if they don't get one.

boardsuser1

Reputable Rog wrote: »

I'm not convinced that a junction is needed for Buttevant.
Ballyhea will want one next and they'll all be out marching on the motorway after mass if they don't get one.

Ballyhea says no!

Where did I hear that before :pac:

Reputable Rog

Cork Truck Driver wrote: »

Ballyhea says no!

Where did I hear that before :pac:

Although Pet McDonogh (sic) might convert his outlet into a Plaza and will demand a junction.

Cookiemunster

Cork Truck Driver wrote: »

Has an exit junction been included for Buttevant in the plans now or is it still the plan to go without one? The locals weren’t impressed with the plans I recall.

Was it mentioned somewhere that they would prefer if it ties in with the Adare bypass?

There are no plans for any of the route yet. Hopefully they'll be able to reuse most of the plan from 10 years ago. If they do then Buttevant will have a junction.
The original plans also had the Adare bypass running South of Adare and tying in to the M20 there, but we're now getting a Northern bypass as part of the Limerick to Foynes scheme. I doubt we'll get an idea of how the current M20 and the new M21 will tie into the new scheme until the M21 has planning.

marno21

As Cookiemunster said, there are no firm plans for the 2018 scheme yet.

Here's what was proposed in 2009:

J5: Patrickswell/Adare (R526/redesignated N21)
J6: Tralee/Killarney/Adare/Croom (N21/R526)
J7: Bruree/Ballingarry/Kilmallock (R518)
Jx: Motorway Service Area
J8: Charleville/Ballyhea (old N20 link road)
J9: Mallow/Fermoy/Mitchelstown (N72/N73)
J10: Mallow South (old N20)
J11: Rathduff/Grenagh (old N20)
J12: Blarney (R617)
J13: Eastbound/Waterford/Ringaskiddy/Airport etc (N40)

IMO, this is insufficient for 85km or so of motorway. The gap between J8 and J9 would be far too much. I would include at least 2 other junctions, one on the R515 for north Cork traffic joining to go to Limerick, this is very busy especially with HGVs and routes traffic down a narrow street past a school, and another near Buttevant. Ballyhea would get a junction as part of J8 which was to be south of Charleville.

There should be as many junctions as possible within reason, to hoover as much traffic as possible off the existing N20 mess and also to stop the scheme from getting held up ala the M21 scheme missing a junction for Croagh.

Isambard

yes I agree....west of Charleville to pick up the Newmarket/Kanturk traffic and North of Mallow/South of Buttevant would be ideal. Particularly in the case of the latter traffic heading north from the N72 would have to go further east of Mallow to pick up J9 , in practise it would use the old road north of Mallow

no.8

markodaly wrote: »

First of all, can we get over the obsession of inter-city rail? Its too expensive and we do not have the population to make high speed rail viable. What we do have is a small country geographicly, where we have already linked most of of urban centres to Dublin.


No actually, I hope you don't mind but most of us don't have to get over this 'obsession' from a 1-dimensional mindset. Look beyond your boundaries and see that there is a fairly substantial catchment area, a necessity for public transport (e.g. not everyone is fit, able or well-off enough to drive and frankly, enjoy the comfort of relaxing/working on trains while getting from A to . So just because you say something doesn't make it through. Many nations use both methods of transport and from quite a lot of experience I've seen how it is indeed viable to have a well-rounded transport network, not simply an 'all eggs in the one basket old-fashioned mentality'. We're not talking about a TGV or Maglev here. The M20 must go ahead, but that doesn't mean other services should suffer / be neglected for both systems are interconnected in multiple ways. Cork and Limerick are going to expand, best to be ready for it and not have an overloaded piece of infrastructure well before time.

P.S. The argument of that the size of the nation influences the feasibility of services is shortsighted. Look around Europe or the developed world, island . So many more factors come in to play. A smaller land area is an advantage for that factor....fewer km's of Asphalt and High-speed rail to lay. Pop., distribution, density, boundaries / links with other nations, GDP...etc. etc.

Now, back on topic.

Bazzer007

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/cork-to-limerick-motorway-and-dublin-airport-included-in-115bn-national-development-plan-826540.html