M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

markodaly

no.8 wrote: »

markodaly wrote: »

No actually, I hope you don't mind but most of us don't have to get over this 'obsession' from a 1-dimensional mindset. Look beyond your boundaries and see that there is a fairly substantial catchment area, a necessity for public transport (e.g. not everyone is fit, able or well-off enough to drive and frankly, enjoy the comfort of relaxing/working on trains while getting from A to . So just because you say something doesn't make it through. Many nations use both methods of transport and from quite a lot of experience I've seen how it is indeed viable to have a well-rounded transport network, not simply an 'all eggs in the one basket old-fashioned mentality'. We're not talking about a TGV or Maglev here. The M20 must go ahead, but that doesn't mean other services should suffer / be neglected for both systems are interconnected in multiple ways. Cork and Limerick are going to expand, best to be ready for it and not have an overloaded piece of infrastructure well before time.

P.S. The argument of that the size of the nation influences the feasibility of services is shortsighted. Look around Europe or the developed world, island . So many more factors come in to play. A smaller land area is an advantage for that factor....fewer km's of Asphalt and High-speed rail to lay. Pop., distribution, density, boundaries / links with other nations, GDP...etc. etc.

Now, back on topic.

Yet, you have no even mentioned how much you would spend on this. Sure, in an ideal world it would be great to have a High Speed rail line say going from Dublin to Limerick, then Cork in about an hour. Who wouldn't like that. The thing though is the cost of it? Which would make Metro North look like a picnic.

At the moment effort should be made to connect the country by decent roads and do the best we can with the intercity rail services. Maybe re-evaluate rail in ten years. In the current window we should be looking for urban and commuter rail.

Leonard Hofstadter

markodaly wrote: »

Yet, you have no even mentioned how much you would spend on this. Sure, in an ideal world it would be great to have a High Speed rail line say going from Dublin to Limerick, then Cork in about an hour. Who wouldn't like that. The thing though is the cost of it? Which would make Metro North look like a picnic.

At the moment effort should be made to connect the country by decent roads and do the best we can with the intercity rail services. Maybe re-evaluate rail in ten years. In the current window we should be looking for urban and commuter rail.

Absolutely, Dublin badly needs a big wad of cash spent to improve public transport - we definitely need to see Metro North go ahead and some Luas lines towards Terenure/Templeogue/Harold's Cross as well as one for D15 definitely wouldn't go astray.

The regions badly need money spent on roads - Cork to Limerick has got to be top of the priority list, but even after that Cork's infrastructure is dreadful for the country's second city.

Longer term Cork definitely could do with investment in railways, perhaps following the routes of the old railway lines, and a Luas type service going from Mahon/Blackrock all the way out to Ballincollig via town is definitely needed.

Ireland is too small for high speed TGV style services.

It would be useful if the trains went faster though - we have trains that can do 125 mph but there is no stretch of line anywhere on this island that is rated for more than 100 mph. If we had 125 mph running it would be possible to do Cork-Dublin in 2 hours by train. And when it's time to renew the train fleet, it's definitely time to go electric as they are quieter, much greener and will be faster than diesel. That all costs a lot of money, but it is necessary to cater for population growth - we can't just keep widening the motorways like they've done in the UK.

markodaly

no.8 wrote: »

markodaly wrote: »

No actually, I hope you don't mind but most of us don't have to get over this 'obsession' from a 1-dimensional mindset. Look beyond your boundaries and see that there is a fairly substantial catchment area, a necessity for public transport (e.g. not everyone is fit, able or well-off enough to drive and frankly, enjoy the comfort of relaxing/working on trains while getting from A to . So just because you say something doesn't make it through. Many nations use both methods of transport and from quite a lot of experience I've seen how it is indeed viable to have a well-rounded transport network, not simply an 'all eggs in the one basket old-fashioned mentality'. We're not talking about a TGV or Maglev here. The M20 must go ahead, but that doesn't mean other services should suffer / be neglected for both systems are interconnected in multiple ways. Cork and Limerick are going to expand, best to be ready for it and not have an overloaded piece of infrastructure well before time.

P.S. The argument of that the size of the nation influences the feasibility of services is shortsighted. Look around Europe or the developed world, island . So many more factors come in to play. A smaller land area is an advantage for that factor....fewer km's of Asphalt and High-speed rail to lay. Pop., distribution, density, boundaries / links with other nations, GDP...etc. etc.

Now, back on topic.

Yet, you have no even mentioned how much you would spend on this. Sure, in an ideal world it would be great to have a High Speed rail line say going from Dublin to Limerick, then Cork in about an hour. Who wouldn't like that. The thing though is the cost of it? Which would make Metro North look like a picnic.

At the moment effort should be made to connect the country by decent roads and do the best we can with the intercity rail services. Maybe re-evaluate rail in ten years. In the current window we should be looking for urban and commuter rail.

no.8

markodaly wrote: »

no.8 wrote: »

Yet, you have no even mentioned how much you would spend on this. Sure, in an ideal world it would be great to have a High Speed rail line say going from Dublin to Limerick, then Cork in about an hour. Who wouldn't like that. The thing though is the cost of it? Which would make Metro North look like a picnic.

At the moment effort should be made to connect the country by decent roads and do the best we can with the intercity rail services. Maybe re-evaluate rail in ten years. In the current window we should be looking for urban and commuter rail.

Well you wouldn't to be laying a brand corridor of railway tracks. High-speed is more in relative terms, say 200-225kmh max. (avg. 150kmh up), not purpose built, dead straight stretches of track rated for 350kmh+ trains, that I agree is likely unfeasible. So relaying, realigning, widening (4 tracks in places...e.g. passing lines) and restocking (passenger and freight options).
Since boring activities would be minimized you wouldn't be approaching anywhere near the Euros/KM we'd be talking about with Metro North.

How much does a Motorway cost, or any piece of public infrastructure for that matter? How long does a return on investment take? There's many more factors, What i read is that you essentially you want to kick the can down the track and follow the good ol US of A model? A single mode of transport. 10 years and in the meantime the 2nd, 3rd and 4th cities of Ireland are constrained because we couldn't invest in our aging transport links. No, there is certainly money available to upgrade both. Dublin-Cork is the most viable upgrade (the distance is not so great between our 2nd and 3rd cities). Limerick spur then using that line to create a potential Cork-Limerick service.

Look, I'm delighted how much has changed in terms of our road infrastructure over the past 20 years (all thanks to European investment in fairness), its made travel quicker and safer. However to neglect any other forms of transport and/or fail to invest, essentially ignoring the advantages inter-connectivity / load sharing offers, leads to a woefully inadequate transport system. For many its alright to dig through greenfield sites to build new road here there and everywhere but seemingly not to realign railways or build key pieces of infrastructure before its absolutely necessary (e.g. new runway at Dublin airport) because in general, in Ireland, we don't see the big picture. 'If it doesn't directly benefit me then we don't need it'.

It's not meant for you entirely its just a general opinion. I agree on the urban and commuter rail improvements and really want to see work on the M20 started (chosen alignment).

marno21

MOD:

In light of the fact that there is currently no active plan to reopen a rail line between Charleville and Limerick, and that this thread is about the M20, can we return to talking about the M20

corinthion

There was another serious crash today ,involving 3 cars at the turn off to waterloo just outside Blarney to day.it was around 3.15. i dont think anybody was seriously injured but it was kinda frightening when you see young children about the age of 4 sitting in the middle of the road crying and holding onto her teddy bear. it really brings it home to you not just the dangers of the roads as it can happen anywhere but the effect it can have on you

boardsuser1

corinthion wrote: »

There was another serious crash today ,involving 3 cars at the turn off to waterloo just outside Blarney to day.it was around 3.15. i dont think anybody was seriously injured but it was kinda frightening when you see young children about the age of 4 sitting in the middle of the road crying and holding onto her teddy bear. it really brings it home to you not just the dangers of the roads as it can happen anywhere but the effect it can have on you

The same place where the American tourists were killed?

In relation to the child, that is a disturbing image

There was a child killed further up that road a few years ago at what i call the 'Bweeng' turnoff sadly.

marno21

corinthion wrote: »

There was another serious crash today ,involving 3 cars at the turn off to waterloo just outside Blarney to day.it was around 3.15. i dont think anybody was seriously injured but it was kinda frightening when you see young children about the age of 4 sitting in the middle of the road crying and holding onto her teddy bear. it really brings it home to you not just the dangers of the roads as it can happen anywhere but the effect it can have on you

It also brings it home to you the political wasters around the area of the N20 when between congestion, safety and capacity issues that it's not such a political issue in the area. It's like a bag of sand weighing down the area.

In particular Government TDs such as Noonan, O'Donovan, Neville, Stanton, Coveney etc have failed the region on this issue. There are some fairly big names on that list. Sean Sherlock was happy to trot out the money excuse whilst in Government but returned to the "outrage" mode after being thrown back into opposition.

Funny how when the Taoiseach and Minister for Finance are both from Dublin it's back on the table. 95% of people would have you believe Dublin TDs are only in it for Dublin

boardsuser1

marno21 wrote: »

Funny how when the Taoiseach and Minister for Finance are both from Dublin it's back on the table. 95% of people would have you believe Dublin TDs are only in it for Dublin

The only interesting part about all of this is that when both were minister for transport they shelved the project.

Now that they are at the pinnacle of power it is back on the table.

In relation to Sherlock & co. you are on the money there.

corinthion

yes it was in the exact same spot as the tourist. it really is becoming a black spot as there was another minor one there a few weeks ago as well

marno21

Cork Truck Driver wrote: »

The only interesting part about all of this is that when both were minister for transport they shelved the project.

Now that they are at the pinnacle of power it is back on the table.

In relation to Sherlock & co. you are on the money there.

In fairness at the rate Ireland was borrowing money the cost of the CPO would likely have been a challenge.

Most projects either advanced or built during the last administration were political pet projects, all the N5 schemes, Listowel bypass etc

corinthion

just to say as well the child wasn't injured , and i dont think anybody else was either

boardsuser1

marno21 wrote: »

In fairness at the rate Ireland was borrowing money the cost of the CPO would likely have been a challenge.

Most projects either advanced or built during the last administration were political pet projects, all the N5 schemes, Listowel bypass etc

When was the M17/18 started?

marno21

Cork Truck Driver wrote: »

When was the M17/18 started?

January 2015. N18 Oranmore-Gort was originally tendered in 2008 tho but deferred.

The PPPs were easy to do (N11/Newlands/M17/Enniscorthy/New Ross) as they were off the balance sheet and didn't have to comply with spending constraints from the bailout

Isambard

corinthion wrote: »

yes it was in the exact same spot as the tourist. it really is becoming a black spot as there was another minor one there a few weeks ago as well

there's something about that junction that makes it dangerous, I've had people pull out of there right on top of me before.

boardsuser1

marno21 wrote: »

January 2015. N18 Oranmore-Gort was originally tendered in 2008 tho but deferred.

The PPPs were easy to do (N11/Newlands/M17/Enniscorthy/New Ross) as they were off the balance sheet and didn't have to comply with spending constraints from the bailout

Essentially we were out of the woods when all these commenced.

Kevwoody

Its a lethal junction. The main problem is that nearly all the local traffic coming out of the side road dont even stop at the junction, they drive straight out onto the hard shoulder and try to bully their way into traffic.

Kevwoody

Cork Truck Driver wrote:

There was a child killed further up that road a few years ago at what i call the 'Bweeng' turnoff sadly.

Theres actually a headstone for her on the side road, first time i saw it i felt heartbroken, she was the same age as my own daughter when she died.

boardsuser1

Kevwoody wrote: »

Theres actually a headstone for her on the side road, first time i saw it i felt heartbroken, she was the same age as my own daughter when she died.

Yes that's right.

I remember hearing it on the radio that day, very sad.

She was 4 i think?

marno21

Kevwoody wrote: »

Its a lethal junction. The main problem is that nearly the local traffic coming out of the side road dont even stop at the junction, they drive straight out onto the hard shoulder and try to bully their way into traffic.

Even beyond that, the fundamental issue is that it's a junction with right turn movements onto a 100km/h road, with people often breaking the speed limit, just off the end of a dual carriageway and there are almost 20,000 vehicles a day using the road

The N20 there is busier than most of the M3, M6, M7, M8, M9, M17, M18. There is a solution and we all know what it is

Kevwoody

Cork Truck Driver wrote:

She was 4 i think?

Yea 4 and a half I think, theres a picture of her on the headstone.

Isambard

marno21 wrote: »

Even beyond that, the fundamental issue is that it's a junction with right turn movements onto a 100km/h road, with people often breaking the speed limit, just off the end of a dual carriageway and there are almost 20,000 vehicles a day using the road

The N20 there is busier than most of the M3, M6, M7, M8, M9, M17, M18. There is a solution and we all know what it is

i think it's because it's on a slight bend , other wise it's just another junction. I agree it's the right turners pulling on to the N20 that are the main problem. It's quite a long way from the end of the dual carriageway

Sam Russell

Mod: Can we not use this thread to talk of road traffic incidents - particularly fatal ones. There are those grieving for those who lost their lives and others who suffered life changing injuries and who should be given respect.

It does not further the arguments for the need for this road and is inappropriate as it has nothing to do with infrastructure. The M20, when built, will solve the safety and congestion experienced on the route. Discussing route choices would be more apposite to this thread.

Kevwoody

Discussion over, as usual.

spacetweek

Kevwoody wrote: »

Discussion over, as usual.

As it should be. Back to details of the M20.

JCX BXC

spacetweek wrote: »

As it should be. Back to details of the M20.

If the thread is only about the building of the M20 and not about various aspects that should lead to it, should it not be explicitly stated in the start of the thread? Not that I think it should be, discussion shouldn't be stifled but that's not my decision.

Sam Russell

JCX BXC wrote: »

If the thread is only about the building of the M20 and not about various aspects that should lead to it, should it not be explicitly stated in the start of the thread? Not that I think it should be, discussion shouldn't be stifled but that's not my decision.

Mod: It is in the title. Route selection to start Q1 2018.


However, discussing traffic incidents has no place in this thread or this forum, but could find a home in the motoring forums.

If you disagree with this, you may take it up with the moderators by either reporting this post or by PM to one or other of the moderators.

EnzoScifo

The ERSI are wrong about Cork City Centre losing population for a start. Has actually risen since 2011.

marno21

EnzoScifo wrote: »

The ERSI are wrong about Cork City Centre losing population for a start. Has actually risen since 2011.

The M20 will not facilitate sprawl. The planning divisions of Cork County Council and Limerick Council will.

The smell of bull**** reporting on this Capital Plan is galling. Between the ****e on the Western Rail Corridor and this infrastructure creates sprawl drivel.

prunudo

EnzoScifo wrote: »

The ERSI are wrong about Cork City Centre losing population for a start. Has actually risen since 2011.

It's no wonder nothing gets done in this country when just as you're within touching distance of getting a major protect started these gob****es stick their oar in and hold everything up. Maybe they should mention going via mitchlestown again and hold it up with more reports.