M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

AugustusMinimus

There’s a real drive behind the scenes for this road not to happen.

It was stopped before within government. However this time, as it has government go ahead, we are seeing different angle to try to stop it such as alternative routes and now this from the ESRI.

What did the ESRI have to say about the M17/M18 build?

cjpm

You couldn't make this sh1t up. It's 2018 and some twat is suggesting that a road built pre famine times is suitable between our 2nd and 3rd cities in the Rep. What an absolute tool.

Post Brexit, Port of Cork could potentially handle a lot more of the cargo being imported and exported for Munster, Connaught and south Leinster. If distribution wasn't such an issue due to the chronic condition of the N20, N21 and N25. Not to mention the conspiracy theorists trying to reroute the M28 via Cork Airport.

:mad:

Water John

The notion that the link between Limerick and Cork doesn't need a high grade road, is quite bizarre. I suppose it depends on, what value you place on, human lives.

Sam Russell

Water John wrote: »

The notion that the link between Limerick and Cork doesn't need a high grade road, is quite bizarre. I suppose it depends on, what value you place on, human lives.

Quite clearly, officialdom thinks a link between Gort and Tuam (by passing Galway) is much more important than a link between the second and third city in the state.

They have the route, they should just start at one end and build it. Better still, start at both ends and hope to meet in the middle.

Middle Man

cjpm wrote: »

You couldn't make this sh1t up. It's 2018 and some twat is suggesting that a road built pre famine times is suitable between our 2nd and 3rd cities in the Rep. What an absolute tool.

Post Brexit, Port of Cork could potentially handle a lot more of the cargo being imported and exported for Munster, Connaught and south Leinster. If distribution wasn't such an issue due to the chronic condition of the N20, N21 and N25. Not to mention the conspiracy theorists trying to reroute the M28 via Cork Airport.

:mad:

+1

It's plain barstool talk IMO...

M20 - Just get on with it and cut the crap!!!

AugustusMinimus

Middle Man wrote: »

+1

It's plain barstool talk IMO...

M20 - Just get on with it and cut the crap!!!

The question is though. Why is the ESRI picking out the M20 for attention and why hasn’t any other scheme got this treatment?

pigtown

Jesus lads just because it's a different opinion to yours doesn't mean he's a twat or barstool talk. It's a very comprehensive study done by the highly regarded ESRI. It shouldn't just be dismissed

pigtown

From the report summary, pg 98 and 99;
To achieve the benefits from a city based pattern, growth in the second tier cities
needs to be facilitated i.e. it has to be planned for and the appropriate
infrastructure must be put in place. The aim should be to achieve compact high
density development that is attractive, such that it will draw in internal and
international migrants, and the scale and density will support the attraction of
more economic activity. Thus, infrastructure development should be in the cities
rather than between them. The latter facilitates sprawl and thus leads to reduced
densities.

The M20 is being singled out as it is the only planned road between 2 of the four cities that were mentioned in the NDP Draft report.

People should give the report a look
https://www.esri.ie/pubs/RS70.pdf

pajoguy

The project should be fast tracked in any way possible just on the basis of saving lives. Take out the economics and politics. Enough lives have been lost.

Water John

Yeah, we had that guy in the ESRI, for years arguing that we shouldn't support renewable energies. Perhaps if he's still around, he'll cough up the fines.

It was cheaper to move goods by canal barge so we should never have built the railways or the roads.

marno21

pigtown wrote: »

Jesus lads just because it's a different opinion to yours doesn't mean he's a twat or barstool talk. It's a very comprehensive study done by the highly regarded ESRI. It shouldn't just be dismissed

You're in the wrong place to be trying to argue against the project but anyway..

Why shouldn't it be built? And facilitating sprawl is not a valid reason because:

1. There has been plenty of it without any M20 being built
2. Sprawl is the result of poor planning laws and a blase attitude to the general culture of planning and sprawl.

If sprawl was a reason not to build such a scheme then the M17 must be brought into question.

Frostybrew

marno21 wrote: »

If sprawl was a reason not to build such a scheme then the M17 must be brought into question.

Or even the entire motorway network.

pigtown

marno21 wrote: »

You're in the wrong place to be trying to argue against the project but anyway..

Why shouldn't it be built? And facilitating sprawl is not a valid reason because:

1. There has been plenty of it without any M20 being built
2. Sprawl is the result of poor planning laws and a blase attitude to the general culture of planning and sprawl.

If sprawl was a reason not to build such a scheme then the M17 must be brought into question.

Ok, leaving aside sprawl there are two reasons; density and carbon emissions.

Density
We know that approximately 1 million extra people will live in Ireland by 2040. We also know that Ireland along with the rest of the world is urbanising rapidly. As it stands Dublin is the only urban area in the country with a reasonably wide variety of decent public transport, education options, employment options etc. This isn't to say that other cities and towns aren't attractive in their own way but it's clear that the majority of urban dwellers in Ireland want to live in or around Dublin as it stands.
Government doesn't want these extra 1 million people to live on the east coast; the city will be unable to cope and the rest of the country will be even more reliant in the region than it already is. What they believe is that in order to make the other cities attractive for employees and thus employers who increasingly try to locate in cities where their prospective employees would like to live, and the retail and restaurants etc. which follow, is to densify. Denser cities make it more viable to invest in services, healthcare, public transport, etc. As it stands Cork, Limerick, Galway, and Waterford don't have the required density.
My argument against the road is that it won't make the cities more attractive places to live. Taking the money and instead spending it on improving the cities themselves; parks, buses, streetscapes, childcare, hospitals. These are the things which influence where people want to live. A new road which makes it more attractive to live in Charleville or Mallow and drive to the city to work will not benefit either city.

Carbon Emissions
Ireland is obligated to reduce its emissions by 16% by 2020 or face yearly fines. In relation to the transport sector it's not entirely clear exactly how much it will cost to pay the fines but a conservative estimate is €100 million per year (I'm not and expert though). We know that new roads always mean new traffic so its certain that the M20 will cause an increase in emissions. Now I know that there are electric vehicles that should reduce emissions but as it stands Ireland sells a tiny percentage of electric vehicles per year.

If you want to provide greater connectivity between the cities after they have adequately densified then why not invest in rail? It would allow people who live in the city and travel to work on the new public transport networks to travel city centre to city centre without adding to congestion or pollution.

marno21

Leo Varadkar shot down Mr ESRI on This Week today saying the M20 will go ahead.

He also says that it will be very beneficial to the towns along the route Charleville, Buttevant and Adare and namedrops the M21 connection to Foynes.

My next concern is how fast this will be progressed. The last M20 scheme was got from time zero to ABP submission in 18 months. Work has begun on this now but a timeline for the project hasn't been made clear.

Donegal County Council started planning work on several projects (they are planning several projects together to minimise costs, one N13, one N14 and one N15 scheme) in 2016 and are targetting ABP submission in 2020. That's far, far too slow as it means, if approved, they likely won't start until 2022 at the earliest. If the M20 project is serious it should be shovel ready by late 2021.

pigtown

marno21 wrote: »

If sprawl was a reason not to build such a scheme then the M17 must be brought into question.

Frostybrew wrote: »

Or even the entire motorway network.

Well I'd like to think that any major infrastructure project would have no problem standing up to scrutiny so I see nothing wrong with asking about why the motorways were built, or equally the western rail corridor, or the national events centre. There was surely a very detailed study done on every single one given how much they cost.

spacetweek

Bizarrest line from the report: "It doesn't make economic sense."

In that case why was a motorway between Cork and Dublin built, between Limerick and Dublin, or Galway and Limerick?

Calina

The density argument is not an argument against the motorway. If you want higher density accommmodation, it is in the housing planning regs you start. And you need to build apartments that people will want to live in. Ie not have kitchens open on to living rooms. Apartments in Ireland are absolutely awful.

Dublin's public transport is atrocious. You want more people in the other cities, you need to plan transport. Cork needs a light rail solutio now. It won't get it because in Dublin we have not planned integrated publuc transport very well, we don't know how.

But these are not good reasons to avoid building an interurban. You could use it to feed outer park and rides like Cork already does and Oxford does on a major scale if you are concerned about this city.

The ESRI needs to focus on what needs to be done rather than flutering around looking for excuses not to build the M20. It is a road which desperately needs to be done on safety grounds alone. The section from Croom to Mallow is unworkable and has been for years. North of the dual carriageway outside Blarney has elements of death trap.

bear1

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/scrap-limerick-cork-motorway-says-expert-467026.html

No words.

jacksie66

This post has been deleted.

bear1

Add deaths to that list.

boardsuser1

Mr Morgenroth lives in Dublin, he is living in a bubble.

The man is surrounded by the M50,M1,M7 & M9.

The M20 isn't going to impact on him.

WestCoast2017

He is right tough, the future of transport should be the car, even electric cars. When there is a direct train from Cork to Sligo and onward to Donegal, then I'll agree with him :-)

Cork is sadly lacking in public transport, the buses don't link up and the service on some of the main routes is dreadful. If they want an unsprawling city, they need to get public transport sorted sooner than later.

hans aus dtschl

The argument for building higher-density and higher-quality urban areas is fine but it doesn't negate the need for a proper inter-urban link. It's two different things. The existing motorways have not caused lower urban density, according to census 2006 and 2011:
Population within the Cork city and suburbs has increased despite the M8.
Within Limerick city boundary the population has increased despite the M7.
Population within Galway has increased despite the M6.
Waterford: increased despite the M9.
Perhaps that's that argument definitively dead in the water: there's not a single example of lower urban density as a result of motorways occurring within this state.

hans aus dtschl

WestCoast2017 wrote: »

He is right tough, the future of transport should be the car, even electric cars. When there is a direct train from Cork to Sligo and onward to Donegal, then I'll agree with him :-)

Cork is sadly lacking in public transport, the buses don't link up and the service on some of the main routes is dreadful. If they want an unsprawling city, they need to get public transport sorted sooner than later.

Absolutely but let's discuss that in some kind of urban density, public transport or urban improvement/renewal context though: it doesn't appear to have much to do with the M20 specifically.

I'd go one step further and propose that if the motorway network is to be abandoned, there will need to be immediate massive public transport spending in the south west to compensate. This will cost many multiples of the price tag of the M20.

Isambard

the M20 needs to be built on safety grounds alone and if it isn't, a huge programme of building bypasses and improving existing roads would needed which means there are economic reasons to build the M20 too.

Mallow, Buttevant and Charleville need bypassing and large swathes of the road need widening and straightening to such a degree that the whole stretch would need rebuilding.

markodaly

He says that the plan will fail because it will create more sprawl, but that is a planning issue, not a motorway issue. Cork has the M8 for example but afaik it has not led to massive sprawl on this route. Limerick has the M7, it has not lead to massive sprawl.

The NPF which is due to be launched also has provisions to to create some sort of planning authority in an effort to cut down on local authorities giving planning permission for stupid developments.

I can see where he is coming from but his outcome is flawed. I think personally he wants to make a name for himself and his name has been in the media constantly now for the last 48 hours. Its more about profiles raising.

boardsuser1

Oliver Moran is off his head!

https://twitter.com/oliver_moran/status/963037615862767616

Water John

It seems the M20 will leave the starting gate this week. I think the discussion on it is over and decision made, in it's favour.
The naysayers can stay, whistling in the wind, if they wish. Excusing the mixed metaphor, but the train has left the station, at last.

bear1

Water John wrote: »

It seems the M20 will leave the starting gate this week. I think the discussion on it is over and decision made, in it's favour.
The naysayers can stay, whistling in the wind, if they wish. Excusing the mixed metaphor, but the train has left the station, at last.

You have to hand it to Leo though (apart from him blocking it during the crisis) he is sticking so far to his promises when it comes to infrastructure.
This and the metro plus better links to the North West and we will finally start meeting EU standards.

Reputable Rog

I can't understand how countries in a much poorer financial situation than Ireland continuously invested in infrastructure during the downturn but we didn't.
Portugal, Spain etc continued to invest, Romania are building new metro lines in Bucharest, just getting on with it.
I was in the Algarve this summer after an absence of 13 years, I couldn't believe how much better their infrastructure is compared to ours,when I was there I thought we were slightly ahead.