M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

Sponge Bob

I costed this as 100km including Adare and the Cork ring and costing around €400-500m. Shall we say €450m the lot ??

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64335318&postcount=363

€500m for 80km is daft nowadays. You will get 100km for that.

The Kerry job at €21m is c. €4m a km build cost with a lot of structures per KM too so I reckon 100km would cost €400m, the land around €20-30m and the rest of the consultancy and archaeology for €20m or so.

mysterious

If costs contiune to go down like inflation it would deffo be in the 400million mark to max 430million. The road is pretty straight and the land is for the most part away from mountains and majot obstacles.

Road-Hog

mysterious wrote: »

If costs contiune to go down like inflation it would deffo be in the 400million mark to max 430million. The road is pretty straight and the land is for the most part away from mountains and majot obstacles.

What about the stuff you can't see? Shallow levels of hard rock, soft ground areas that may need special treatment, vertical drains followed by surcharging etc........without at least an idea of the cut/fill balance, the amount of material that has to be imported or disposed of off site and a ground investigation report, any sort of accurate cost estimate is very difficult to come up with.

cjpm

Road-Hog wrote: »

What about the stuff you can't see? Shallow levels of hard rock, soft ground areas that may need special treatment, vertical drains followed by surcharging etc........without at least an idea of the cut/fill balance, the amount of material that has to be imported or disposed of off site and a ground investigation report, any sort of accurate cost estimate is very difficult to come up with.

Roryhy wrote: »

Lets go around the bogs on this scheme:rolleyes:

What bogs?? The land is mostly pretty good and no major cavernous limestone areas, nor the type of bogs that were encountered on the N6 (G to or the N7 (L to N). Any poorer areas are all low down and will therefore be under fill, but yet we are not talking about the amounts of alluvial that were encountered in other schemes.

IMHO I can't see the need for very much vertical drains and surcharging being required.

Road-Hog

cjpm wrote: »

What bogs?? The land is mostly pretty good and no major cavernous limestone areas, nor the type of bogs that were encountered on the N6 (G to or the N7 (L to N). Any poorer areas are all low down and will therefore be under fill, but yet we are not talking about the amounts of alluvial that were encountered in other schemes.

IMHO I can't see the need for very much vertical drains and surcharging being required.

So you have seen the ground investigation report I take it? With a 100km project with just route selection complete to date to be coming out with such brave statements about the ground conditions is a bit naive

cjpm

cjpm wrote: »

IMHO I can't see.....

Road-Hog wrote: »

So you have seen the ground investigation report I take it? With a 100km project with just route selection complete to date to be coming out with such brave statements about the ground conditions is a bit naive

No, but i have read the entire Constraints Study (including the Geology and Hydrogeology chapter of the Constraints Report, which comes to 21 pages).

"To summarize no major constraints arise from the bedrock geological study of the constraints area" - Their words, not mine.

BTW, i presume we can agree that a humble opinion is hardly a brave statement??

Zoney

I'm not sure the land is particularly flat. Sure there maybe aren't *major* hills, but there are plenty of ups and downs, or bends on the current road/landscape. Surely a lot of cuttings and embankments? Plus it has to skirt the Ballyhouras (southeast of Charleville) and cross the Blackwater valley. And the online upgrade from south of Mallow to Blarney is along more hilly terrain, which despite the leeway allowed by the previous road scheme (built wider than the road to accommodate future dualling) will probably need more serious clearance due to parallel access roads being installed.

I don't however recollect any bogs along the route.

Anyways, as has been said, as non-experts it's pretty hard to estimate (or even guesstimate) as to figures.

cjpm

Zoney wrote: »

Surely a lot of cuttings and embankments?

Anyways, as has been said, as non-experts it's pretty hard to estimate (or even guesstimate) as to figures.

Cuts and embankments are not a massive problem so long as the material that is cut is acceptable for use in the embankments, thus the designer and contractor will alter the vertical profile to balance the 2 if possible, and to avoid disposal of material or indeed having to import fill. Areas of cut and fill also make it easier to accomodate local road underbridges and overbridges.

What is way worse is large areas where the road or embankments need to be built and the original ground material under the road or embankment footprint (remember the footprint varies and could be twice the width of the road) needs to be excavated and disposed of..... very costly operation.

In some jobs the contractor may have to dig down 4+ metres to hit acceptable formation..... N6 (G to or N7 (L to N) for example

nordydan

It was originally planned and listed on the NRA website as wide median, but is no longer. Not sure when the change happend. Maybe they didn't want hippies camping in the central reservation...

Chris_5339762

Cork to Limerick is surprisingly high, some of it is at ~140m IIRC. It will be a PAINFUL scheme to build, as the two best overtaking areas (Cork to Rathduff and the entire Croom bypass) will be speed limited and probably one lane each during the online upgrades.

Sponge Bob

The N20 around Charleville , old N6 around Kilreekil and N18 south of Gort all have a profile of 10-12k AADT and these are with important truck and bus corridors included.

The M18 is being built as narrow median ( after the bit around Newmarket on Fergus was finished) and the M6 section around Cappataggle toll/Kilreekil is also narrow median.

From Croom to Mallow certainly requires no more than narrow median for the traffic levels no more than Gort-Ennis does.

I would consider something more adequate( wide median) north of Croom and from the blackwater bridge near Mallow on to Cork and would plan for D3 within 10 miles of Limerick and Cork cities. They bought enough land for wide median from Galway Airport as far as the M18/M17 exchange west of Athenry.

It is a pity that the NRA does not consider using concrete barriers on corners and post and wire barriers on straights, driving for miles on end at 75mph along a concrete wall is weird and uncomfortable and the relief of a road 'opening itself out' on occasion would be nice

mysterious

Well The M20 should be wide median deffo to Croom to Limerick, since the Adare bypass will hook up here and the N20 rises to 15,000 just before the N2O TOTOs. The existing DC near Limerick is 25,000 A.A.D.T with a high amount H.G.Vs. Traffic will boom here when the Tunnel, Gort bypas and Limerick to Nenagh scheme opens. The Castleisland bypass will be open and Adare schemes will allow greater traffic movements to funnel onto the Croom to Limerick motorway. I would deffo agree with having this section D3 capacity. It makes perfect sense.

The N20 is pretty busy with a very large amount of H.G.Vs. It will continue to rise as the Atlantic corridor is now taking shape further north. So the trade and links between Limerick, Cork and Galway will prosper imo.

Mallow is 16,000 A.A.D.T and rises to 22,000 A.A.D.T at blackpool. Simalar figures on the Limerick end where traffic rises at the N21 interchange.

I still think the Adare bypass should be motorway to motorway interchange. It's going to be another M50 disaster interchange, with 5 exits. This isn't acceptable considering it funnels local, N21 and the the Croom traffic to and from the M20. This is going to be another headache, considering the existing N21, N20 interchange is higher spec.:rolleyes:

mysterious

Are they redesigning this scheme or what/ I would like to see modifcation done to the N21 branch off. The N21 should been connected to the M20 by a free flowing on ramp and off ramp.


The first lump of the M20 should be the Adare/Croom to Buttevant. This would be pahse 1 can be fast tracked, and the other fantasy schemes can wait until this is done.



No other road scheme should start until after this gets built. The only scheme on par with this is Newlands and Gort Tuam.

Sponge Bob

The road north of Arklow is 50% busier than the stretch from Croom to Mallow.

Anyway most of the land is bought and finishing the missing link on the M11 will take a lot less time than the M20 which is still in planning.

This argument is facetious.

csd

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Anyway most of the land is bought and finishing the missing link on the M11 will take a lot less time than the M20 which is still in planning.

This is the key here. The CPOs for the M11 are done, the land is fenced, the (preliminary) design work is done. It would take the M20 a year at least to get to this stage, so it's silly to say the M11 (and other projects) should be delayed till the poor old N20 gets its upgrade.

This argument is facetious.

+1

/csd

Sponge Bob

Like I said a few days ago, the section from Croom to Mallow is not as busy as /no busier than the N11 north of Arklow so stop dragging that section of the N11 into it all the time.

It stands on its own merits along with Newlands Cross and should ideally proceed as soon as possible.

Zoney

Yes, I absolutely want the M20 project to go ahead, and as soon as possible, but I would nevertheless consider Newlands and the missing N11 section a higher priority.

My main concern is that the M20 project isn't completely scrapped, or downgraded while in the waiting list. Plus I think it should be top of the waiting list. A start in about 2 years time would be acceptable. Besides, they need to fix the mess that is the planned tie-in with the existing N21 and the planned Adare Bypass.

Victor

spacetweek wrote: »

Wanna show us?

Ooops, I came looking for that image only to find I forgot to attach it.

bacon&cabbage

Zoney wrote: »

Yes, I absolutely want the M20 project to go ahead, and as soon as possible, but I would nevertheless consider Newlands and the missing N11 section a higher priority.

My main concern is that the M20 project isn't completely scrapped, or downgraded while in the waiting list. Plus I think it should be top of the waiting list. A start in about 2 years time would be acceptable. Besides, they need to fix the mess that is the planned tie-in with the existing N21 and the planned Adare Bypass.

+1

Irish and Proud

Victor wrote: »

Ooops, I came looking for that image only to find I forgot to attach it.

The spurs in black is exactly what I had in mind for enhancing the MIUs using the M8 to greater effect. I was concerned that we'd have good motorways between Dublin and the other cities, but none between the latter - so I was looking at a cost effective way of linking up the other cities and your Black option is almost identical to what I came up with (didn't post it though).

Your Red option looks very good (but is now irrelevant with the current M8 of course), but would have a massive impact on the Glen of Aherlow - it's a beautiful area. However, it would have been very effective in providing replacement routes for the N20 and N24.

Wonder if the NRA had considered any of these options before planning the M20???

Regards!

Sponge Bob

Not being smart here but was 'that' M24 proposal via Mitchelstown .....not a Mysterious plan originally. It stuck in my mind because it was the only logical proposal I ever saw from him during his hyperactive 'ms paint' phase .

Zoney

Yeah, but those alternative plans do not deal with the need to upgrade the N20 south of Mallow to accommodate commuter traffic growth. Plus there is already M20 to Patrickswell and relatively easy to upgrade WS2 to south of Croom. So Croom-Mallow remains a missing link.

I don't think the idea of link through the Galtees to M8 is particularly sensible. Sure you can see from the map it's actually longer than the specific Croom to Mallow section!

mysterious

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Not being smart here but was 'that' M24 proposal via Mitchelstown .....not a Mysterious plan originally. It stuck in my mind because it was the only logical proposal I ever saw from him during his hyperactive 'ms paint' phase .

It was my idea i posted it here years ago.:p I just brought it up many times. Infact I drew a motorway map here of my plans on a few occaisions. It included the M24 idea. I didn't get the idea from somone else. I'm a road expert and I see how motorways are designed in other countries. I'm sure others came up with the same idea aswell.

The Word Is Bor

You may have dug out your crayon but it was not an original idea from you. The NRA commissioned a feasibility study, Fehily Timoney Gifford Ramboll, on the viability of the Atlantic Corridor being routed down towards the M8 or down the N20.

mysterious

The Word Is Bor wrote: »

You may have dug out your crayon but it was not an original idea from you. The NRA commissioned a feasibility study, Fehily Timoney Gifford Ramboll, on the viability of the Atlantic Corridor being routed down towards the M8 or down the N20.

I still think it was my original idea. NRA never made it official. and lets be real. Still doesn't prove they came up with the idea before me or anyone.

They wouldnt think thngs like this as quick as I would. Never mind actually planning roads as efficient as this. I was saying this for years about the current motorway plans running alongside old N routes was complete lunacy.

Sponge Bob

The Word Is Bor wrote: »

The NRA commissioned a feasibility study, Fehily Timoney Gifford Ramboll, on the viability of the Atlantic Corridor being routed down towards the M8 or down the N20.

Touché, but I did first hear it from Mysterious the self proclaimed "road expert" around here

mysterious

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Touché, but I did first hear it from Mysterious the self proclaimed "road expert" around here

You mean you read it.

Amtmann

The Word Is Bor wrote: »

You may have dug out your crayon but it was not an original idea from you. The NRA commissioned a feasibility study, Fehily Timoney Gifford Ramboll, on the viability of the Atlantic Corridor being routed down towards the M8 or down the N20.

Anyone know where a copy of the study can be read?

Tech3

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Not being smart here but was 'that' M24 proposal via Mitchelstown .....not a Mysterious plan originally. It stuck in my mind because it was the only logical proposal I ever saw from him during his hyperactive 'ms paint' phase .

Tis being smart though, Mysterious has put across some good sketches of interchanges in the past. Could ye two shake off yer differences and get on with discussing the topic at hand.

wingfo

Surly the North ring road has to be done along with the M20 as there
will be a major bottleneck in the Blackpool area when the end of the
motorway is reached,mind you this is Irish planning.