M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

jgbyr

http://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/Those-who-criticise-M20-plans-are-talking-nonsense-83b0d21b-6895-4649-800d-7cd10f3c02c3-ds

osarusan

The argument that building the motorway will mean that there is a greater risk of 'urban sprawl' along the route is best countered by simply not allowing those buildings to be built, rather than not building the road at all FFS.

Having said that, perhaps Dr Morgenroth of DCU is familiar with the 'shur it'll be grand' principles of Irish planning, and feels it is likely that no matter what promises are made now about restricting future construction along the route, those promises will later be broken anyway.

pigtown

osarusan wrote: »

The argument that building the motorway will mean that there is a greater risk of 'urban sprawl' along the route is best countered by simply not allowing those buildings to be built, rather than not building the road at all FFS.

Having said that, perhaps Dr Morgenroth of DCU is familiar with the 'shur it'll be grand' principles of Irish planning, and feels it is likely that no matter what promises are made now about restricting future construction along the route, those promises will later be broken anyway.

Exactly. Our planning system works on a democratic basis which means that any attempt by planners (who have studied this and know what bad planning is) to curb development in certain areas, or even try to reduce one-off housing in the countryside, will not be approved by local Councillors who must vote on a final plan. They will be afraid of losing votes should they be seen to be anti the I-want-to-build-anywhere-no-matter-the-damage-it-causes brigade. Equally parish pump TDs have no issue in petitioning for planning permission for constituents.
It's all very well saying that we just need the planners to stop allowing unsuitable development but the reality is that planners can be and are regularly over-ruled.

marno21

There's a discussion coming up on the Last Word on Today FM about whether this should be routed via the N20 corridor or the N24 corridor.

This should be fun.

Sintend

marno21 wrote: »

There's a discussion coming up on the Last Word on Today FM about whether this should be routed via the N20 corridor or the N24 corridor.

This should be fun.

So they're still going on about routing the motorway via Mitchelstown. Do they not realise that south east county Limerick is the Galtee Mountains? Why would they want to build a motorway through the Galtees? Also, there aren't really any towns of note along that route Kilbehenny, Ballylanders, Garryspillane, Hospital just Caherconlish and Mitchelstown. It doesn't even go by Kilmallock, Kilfinane, Bruff or Bruree!

Water John

That's exactly what some would love about it. Everyone should live and work in Cork city or Limerick city. Anyone living or opting to live any where else should be stopped or at least discouraged, in every possible way.
They believe a motorway is largely about the transport of goods.

snotboogie

marno21 wrote: »

There's a discussion coming up on the Last Word on Today FM about whether this should be routed via the N20 corridor or the N24 corridor.

This should be fun.

I don't get the enormous push back this route is getting? Was there similar pushback for the numerous schemes that resulted in a Limerick to Galway motorway?

giveitholly

Sintend wrote: »

So they're still going on about routing the motorway via Mitchelstown. Do they not realise that south east county Limerick is the Galtee Mountains? Why would they want to build a motorway through the Galtees? Also, there aren't really any towns of note along that route Kilbehenny, Ballylanders, Garryspillane, Hospital just Caherconlish and Mitchelstown. It doesn't even go by Kilmallock, Kilfinane, Bruff or Bruree!

Southeast limerick is not the galtees and why would they build a motorway through a mountain,it would not go near the galtees

marno21

That was the 2nd piece on his show this evening about infrastructure (M20 and Metro North) and both were speaking with people well out of their depth and talking absolute spoof.

A North Ring Road is required in Cork M20 or no M20. Saying that a M8 spur to Limerick and 3 town bypasses + the M28 is cheaper is not true and will not improve safety along the route.

The Mitchelstown corridor was ruled out back in 2008 and in 2018. The obesession with it needs to stop especially given that the Taoiseach ruled it out at the weekend.

Linking Limerick and Waterford is also not a priority especially compared to linking Limerick and Cork.

boardsuser1

Any linky of Matt Cooper's interview yesterday anyone?

Sintend

giveitholly wrote: »

Southeast limerick is not the galtees and why would they build a motorway through a mountain,it would not go near the galtees

Maybe look at a map next time before commenting if you think south east Limerick is anything but mountainous! Maybe visit Ballylanders sometime and see for yourself!

Sintend

Cork Truck Driver wrote: »

Any linky of Matt Cooper's interview yesterday anyone?

There you go! https://www.todayfm.com/podcasts/83472/DCU-Economist-Wants-To-Scrap-Cork-Limerick-Motorway

giveitholly

Sintend wrote: »

Maybe look at a map next time before commenting if you think south east Limerick is anything but mountainous! Maybe visit Ballylanders sometime and see for yourself!

Ballylanders is not mountainous,it sits between the galtees and ballyhoura mountains

Sintend

giveitholly wrote: »

Ballylanders is not mountainous,it sits between the galtees and ballyhoura mountains

I'm sure you know as the resident expert on southeast Limerick topography! I'd choose a motorway going via Charleville on flat ground rather than a motorway 400m above sea level going past Ballylanders and serving no real population centres of note! But hey, maybe you know better than everyone else! ��

AugustusMinimus

The push to not have a motorway go past Mallow is just incredible.

I presume TII will simply go with the original route and the government will rubber stamp it.

Going by Mitchelstown is the wrong option for so many reasons gone over many times in this thread.

marno21

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

The push to not have a motorway go past Mallow is just incredible.

I presume TII will simply go with the original route and the government will rubber stamp it.

Going by Mitchelstown is the wrong option for so many reasons gone over many times in this thread.

Leo Varadkar has completely dismissed the Mitchelstown lunacy and has said the motorway will go via Mallow and also to connect with the M21 at Adare for Foynes traffic

TII have also ensured this by making one of the requirements of the project to "solve the deficiencies of the existing N20". A route via Mitchelstown or Cahir will not tick this box

Sintend

marno21 wrote: »

Leo Varadkar has completely dismissed the Mitchelstown lunacy and has said the motorway will go via Mallow and also to connect with the M21 at Adare for Foynes traffic

TII have also ensured this by making one of the requirements of the project to "solve the deficiencies of the existing N20". A route via Mitchelstown or Cahir will not tick this box

Exactly and a nice free flow junction catering for the different traffic flows from M20, M21 and N69 at Attyflin plus a Cork Northern Ring Road.

giveitholly

Sintend wrote: »

I'm sure you know as the resident expert on southeast Limerick topography! I'd choose a motorway going via Charleville on flat ground rather than a motorway 400m above sea level going past Ballylanders and serving no real population centres of note! But hey, maybe you know better than everyone else! ��

I never mentioned anything about what route the motorway should take,I just said it would not be going through the galtees and Ballylanders is not mountainous

Sintend

giveitholly wrote: »

I never mentioned anything about what route the motorway should take,I just said it would not be going through the galtees and Ballylanders is not mountainous

The whole discussion was about which route the motorway should take! The majority want it via Charleville, not Mitchelstown! If it goes by Mitchelstown it will go through mountainous terrain which serves no real population centres of note and doesn't cater for traffic from West Limerick, North Kerry or North Cork as that's what everyone here has been discussing! Or did that one go over your head too?

Leonard Hofstadter

giveitholly wrote: »

I never mentioned anything about what route the motorway should take,I just said it would not be going through the galtees and Ballylanders is not mountainous

It could be the flattest road in the world and it would still be daft to route via Mitchelstown. If they built the M20 east of Mallow it would solve connectivity problems with Limerick for Mitchelstown anyway.

Markcheese

It's a bit late to be trotting out the waterford to limerick thing.... (but I do think it should have been the plan first day.... It should have been Cork /limerick / waterford motorways linking and heading up to meet a Galway road.... And heading to Dublin... That ship is long sailed though.)

Reputable Rog

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Wow, lets slash everything so in return for better infrastructure.

You said in your earlier post you didn't understand how Romania and Portugal managed to keep investing in infrastructure during the downturn. Maybe now you have worked it out !!.

giveitholly

Sintend wrote: »

The whole discussion was about which route the motorway should take! The majority want it via Charleville, not Mitchelstown! If it goes by Mitchelstown it will go through mountainous terrain which serves no real population centres of note and doesn't cater for traffic from West Limerick, North Kerry or North Cork as that's what everyone here has been discussing! Or did that one go over your head too?

Mountainous terrain would be over 600mtrs so no matter what route the road takes it would not be going through mountainous terrain,is that going over your head

Water John

The Mallow option has significant benefit also for the regions west of it. Mid and North Cork and all of Kerry. I'm sure the Healy Raes will give it a good push, as well as the other Kerry TDs.
The important personage in the FF camp being Michael Moynihan TD. Wouldn't underestimate his clout.

There is no mountainous terrain between Mallow and Limerick. Travelled the poor, narrow, twisty road, often enough to know.

Sintend

giveitholly wrote: »

Mountainous terrain would be over 600mtrs so no matter what route the road takes it would not be going through mountainous terrain,is that going over your head

The definition of mountainous is: (of a region) having many mountains. Now didn't you say that both the Galtees and Ballyhouras are in the region!? Oh, but then again maybe you know better than everyone else!

giveitholly

Sintend wrote: »

The definition of mountainous is: (of a region) having many mountains. Now didn't you say that both the Galtees and Ballyhouras are in the region!? Oh, but then again maybe you know better than everyone else!

Yeah but it still would not be going through the galtees which you stated earlier

Reputable Rog

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You said in your earlier post you didn't understand how Romania and Portugal managed to keep investing in infrastructure during the downturn. Maybe now you have worked it out !!.

It doesn't actually work like that though, you can't cut your way out of recession.

Kevwoody

giveitholly wrote:

Yeah but it still would not be going through the galtees which you stated earlier

Jesus would you two ever give it a rest!

markodaly

pigtown wrote: »

I've no idea how much it would cost, but the only reason we know of an approximate construction cost of the M20 is because of studies that were done. Why hasn't there been one done on rail?

Because Irish Rail know there is no demand for one and the cost would run into the Billions.

HS2 equivalent isn't the only option. Why not upgrade the existing rail lines, which is a long term aim of Irish Rail, and allow a direct service via Limerick Junction?

Yes, that is something that could work, but does not mean then that the existing N20 is still suitable. As far as I know, the existing rail lines have already been upgraded as by existing configuration. Anything more would mean massive spend. Have a look on old threads about this topic here.

I feel I'm talking a lot about rail when it's really not the point. If we want our cities to grow and thrive then it cannot be easier and more attractive to live outside of it and work in the city. We must ensure that the cities themselves are places where people want to live and work in. This will require investment on internal infrastructure alongside making the most dangerous parts of the N20 to make it safer.

No one is saying that motorways solve these issues. Motorways solve different problems, just like Metros and Luas solve different problems. Motorways are safe convenient reliable ways to transport goods and people from one urban area to another urban area. They are not mean to be solutions to inner city traffic or sprawl.

Sam Russell

Mod: Can we assume from what Leo Varadkar said that the route will follow the N20.