M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

pajoguy

Kevwoody wrote: »

Jesus would you two ever give it a rest!

Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill...........:D

Limerick74

Dr Edgar Morgenroth, DCU on local radio in Limerick this morning discussing the M20. https://www.live95fm.ie/on-air/shows/limerick-today/limerick-today-podcasts/february-2018/limerick-today-economist-has-his-say-on-comments/

pigtown

markodaly wrote: »

Because Irish Rail know there is no demand for one and the cost would run into the Billions.

They have never done a proper assessment and can't possibly say what the demand will be. And there's no reason why the option costing billions is the only one.

markodaly wrote: »

Yes, that is something that could work, but does not mean then that the existing N20 is still suitable. As far as I know, the existing rail lines have already been upgraded as by existing configuration. Anything more would mean massive spend. Have a look on old threads about this topic here.

I'm absolutely not saying the N20 is suitable, I'm saying that a motorway isn't automatically the only alternative to the current one. And the Limerick-Limerick Junction line is single track with a passing loop. Trains regularly stop half way to let the opposite one pass. And why is massive spend ok for roads but not rail?

markodaly wrote: »

No one is saying that motorways solve these issues. Motorways solve different problems, just like Metros and Luas solve different problems. Motorways are safe convenient reliable ways to transport goods and people from one urban area to another urban area. They are not mean to be solutions to inner city traffic or sprawl.

The problem in Ireland though is that motorways transport goods and people from urban areas to small towns and villages and one-off houses in the countryside. Look at any figures and you'll see that very few journeys are made end-to-end relative to overall traffic. We would be better off if people didn't commute ti and from the cities, rather lived and worked in the same place.

pigtown

Limerick74 wrote: »

Dr Edgar Morgenroth, DCU on local radio in Limerick this morning discussing the M20. https://www.live95fm.ie/on-air/shows/limerick-today/limerick-today-podcasts/february-2018/limerick-today-economist-has-his-say-on-comments/

He talks a lot of sense if people were open to listening

Isambard

pigtown wrote: »

The problem in Ireland though is that motorways transport goods and people from urban areas to small towns and villages and one-off houses in the countryside. Look at any figures and you'll see that very few journeys are made end-to-end relative to overall traffic. We would be better off if people didn't commute ti and from the cities, rather lived and worked in the same place.

that's a very Utopian view, it doesn't happen anywhere in the developed World.

pigtown

It happens to a much greater extent it other countries than it does here, and it's something that should be encourage through investing in our cities to make them more attractive as places to live. People who still choose to live outside them and commute could do so but there are lots of people who would love not to have to own a car or commute for hours every day. This isn't feasible with our current planning policies.

Calina

I moved away from Ireland so I could have that lifestyle. But they still build motorways betwn major urban centres. So it is not per se an either or situation and the not building of the M20 will not magically fix the density and planning issues. It annoys me that people die on this cross. Literally, on the N20.

Frostybrew

pigtown wrote: »

He talks a lot of sense if people were open to listening

He makes many valid points, but doesn't address the need for better access to southern ports for Limerick, Galway, and indeed the entire western seaboard. This is going to be a huge issue for exporters post brexit.

He also negates to discuss how Limerick or Cork will compete with Dublin if the former have a motorway access deficiency in relation to the latter. In essence Dublin is connected by motorway to all the major urban areas in the country and far more attractive to investment. Cork for example, is linked to Dublin only; and roads to other areas are of poor quality, leading to transport and distribution inefficiencies.

His argument seems to be based on the necessities of commuters needs, and not on business and trade.

Reputable Rog

pigtown wrote: »

They have never done a proper assessment and can't possibly say what the demand will be. And there's no reason why the option costing billions is the only one.



I'm absolutely not saying the N20 is suitable, I'm saying that a motorway isn't automatically the only alternative to the current one. And the Limerick-Limerick Junction line is single track with a passing loop. Trains regularly stop half way to let the opposite one pass. And why is massive spend ok for roads but not rail?



The problem in Ireland though is that motorways transport goods and people from urban areas to small towns and villages and one-off houses in the countryside. Look at any figures and you'll see that very few journeys are made end-to-end relative to overall traffic. We would be better off if people didn't commute ti and from the cities, rather lived and worked in the same place.

Are you effectively saying that we should all live in a modern day Bournville or Port Sunlight?

marno21

The lack of investment in Limerick and Cork city centres is not a reason to not build the M20. It highlights the need for further investment in both city centres.

The money is there if there was will to spend it on anything except the appalling waste of money that is Ireland's public service.

Isambard

pigtown wrote: »

It happens to a much greater extent it other countries than it does here, and it's something that should be encourage through investing in our cities to make them more attractive as places to live. People who still choose to live outside them and commute could do so but there are lots of people who would love not to have to own a car or commute for hours every day. This isn't feasible with our current planning policies.

Commuting into Cork or Limerick is small fry compared to the distances people commute elsewhere, in the UK for instance a 90 minute commute is commonplace, or probably twice the maximum on the N20 corridor

pigtown

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Are you effectively saying that we should all live in a modern day Bournville or Port Sunlight?

Port Sunlight is a weird place devoid of life or excitement. I'm saying that people (not all people but a significant number) should live in very well planned cities where they have easy access to facilities, jobs, and entertainment options.

Calina wrote: »

I moved away from Ireland so I could have that lifestyle. But they still build motorways betwn major urban centres. So it is not per se an either or situation and the not building of the M20 will not magically fix the density and planning issues. It annoys me that people die on this cross. Literally, on the N20.

Nothing will magically fix the density issues but I believe this capital plan which is to pay for the M20 should make a concerted and determined effort to address it.

Frostybrew wrote: »

He makes many valid points, but doesn't address the need for better access to southern ports for Limerick, Galway, and indeed the entire western seaboard. This is going to be a huge issue for exporters post brexit.

He also negates to discuss how Limerick or Cork will compete with Dublin if the former have a motorway access deficiency in relation to the latter. In essence Dublin is connected by motorway to all the major urban areas in the country and far more attractive to investment. Cork for example, is linked to Dublin only; and roads to other areas are of poor quality, leading to transport and distribution inefficiencies.

His argument seems to be based on the necessities of commuters needs, and not on business and trade.

You are right about this, and commuter's needs are what I'm mainly talking about too. But if we removed most of the commuters from their cars, through better public transport and them living closer to work then wouldn't that free up space on an improved N20 for the movement of goods?

marno21 wrote: »

The lack of investment in Limerick and Cork city centres is not a reason to not build the M20. It highlights the need for further investment in both city centres.

The money is there if there was will to spend it on anything except the appalling waste of money that is Ireland's public service.

In my mind we need both better connectivity (for trade and not commuters) and better internal infrastructure in cities. I believe that the cities should be invested in first and then the connectivity because like it or not it will shape how our cities look and grow for the next generation. If the population is going to grow regardless then we are going to need to build housing etc in the short and medium turn. Building the road first will lead to car-based communities, long commutes, more sprawl, more congestion.

Take Limerick as an example; currently the city council are trying to attract new jobs to the city centre through the development of a number of city centre sites. When it was pointed out that these thousands of new workers will need someplace to live the council decided that a new 850-house scheme in Mungret was the best option even though the road which links Mungert to the centre is already at capacity. Currently it's neither viable nor particularly attractive for developers to build large city centre residential schemes because they will not be able to make a return on their investment. Limerick's public transport is poor, its public realm, while better than it was, isn't particularly notable, there are no bike lanes or bus lanes in the centre. So it's no wonder that there is more demand for suburban and out of city living. However if the investment was put into the city first then city centre developments become more attractive to buyers and more viable to build. People can decide not to have a car if they have reliable public transport, and the lack of a back garden isn't that big an issue if the streets are attractive and there is a park a short walk down the road.

AugustusMinimus

Pigtown. Do you believe that the M17/M18 should not have been built?

What about the rest of the inter urban network?

pigtown

I don't know to be honest. I enjoy driving on motorways as much as anyone else and getting stuck behind a tractor at Gort used to annoy me greatly. But at the same time the new road has done absolutely nothing to progress Galway city itself and it's not a particularly busy road. I guess I'm just if the view that cities and large towns should have the facilities within them to prosper themselves before we spend billions linking them together. If we had proper local government that could raise and spend cash locally on these facilities then it wouldn't be such an issue but as we have to wait for money from the national government then it's more and more difficult to get funding for large but local projects that aren't roads.

I wonder does anyone know of a concrete example of how linking Limerick and Galway with a motorway actually improved things?

snotboogie

pigtown wrote: »

I don't know to be honest. I enjoy driving on motorways as much as anyone else and getting stuck behind a tractor at Gort used to annoy me greatly. But at the same time the new road has done absolutely nothing to progress Galway city itself and it's not a particularly busy road. I guess I'm just if the view that cities and large towns should have the facilities within them to prosper themselves before we spend billions linking them together. If we had proper local government that could raise and spend cash locally on these facilities then it wouldn't be such an issue but as we have to wait for money from the national government then it's more and more difficult to get funding for large but local projects that aren't roads.

I wonder does anyone know of a concrete example of how linking Limerick and Galway with a motorway actually improved things?

I don't think people grasp the difference in scale. Gort and Tuam have a combined population of less than 15k, there are suburbs in Cork with over double the combined population of Gort and Tuam (Douglas has about 30k). Cork itself has a population larger than all of Connacht.

Middle Man

Isambard wrote: »

that's a very Utopian view, it doesn't happen anywhere in the developed World.

Well, we have the technology now to disperse a lot of the high tech and other high end jobs - there's no excuse IMO. Just get the broadband up to standard and cut the nonsense!

orangerhyme

pigtown wrote: »

I don't know to be honest. I enjoy driving on motorways as much as anyone else and getting stuck behind a tractor at Gort used to annoy me greatly. But at the same time the new road has done absolutely nothing to progress Galway city itself and it's not a particularly busy road. I guess I'm just if the view that cities and large towns should have the facilities within them to prosper themselves before we spend billions linking them together. If we had proper local government that could raise and spend cash locally on these facilities then it wouldn't be such an issue but as we have to wait for money from the national government then it's more and more difficult to get funding for large but local projects that aren't roads.

I wonder does anyone know of a concrete example of how linking Limerick and Galway with a motorway actually improved things?

right now it seems to be operating below capacity but will make sense more in the future I think when the motorway from Limerick to Cork is built.

At present though its good for Shannon-Foynes port which is our second busiest port and Shannon Airport is 3rd busiest airport.

I assume it has alleviated at least some of the congestion around Galway but Ive not seen any figures on this.

Water John

I think some are looking at, designing how we live and work, as if we were starting with a blank sheet.We have to look at the reality of the present, where people live and design a future, incorporating that.

Reputable Rog

snotboogie wrote: »

I don't think people grasp the difference in scale. Gort and Tuam have a combined population of less than 15k, there are suburbs in Cork with over double the combined population of Gort and Tuam (Douglas has about 30k). Cork itself has a population larger than all of Connacht.

Gort and Tuam combined have less people than Mallow but yet are served by motorway. In fact combining nearly every village and town between Gort and Tuam would barely produce a bigger population than Mallow and its hinterland.

what_traffic

orangerhyme wrote: »

I assume it has alleviated at least some of the congestion around Galway but Ive not seen any figures on this.

Nope.
Claregalway mentioned on RTE Radio 1 "AA Roadwatch Free Ads" every morning. People aint using the Tuam to Gort Motorway.
Tuam bypass is the only essentially piece. Claregalway and Clarinbridge/Kilgolgan should have had used smaller scale bypasses on the old road network.

hans aus dtschl

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Gort and Tuam combined have less people than Mallow but yet are served by motorway. In fact combining nearly every village and town between Gort and Tuam would barely produce a bigger population than Mallow and its hinterland.

It's very convenient to argue that we might not really need inter-urban motorways if you're based in a location that's fully connected.

Cork alone won't be the economic counterweight to Dublin in the next 100 years. It's too small. The only show in town is Galway-Limerick-Cork and even that's going to need a lot of work.

For people sitting north of Limerick thinking that delaying this project will improve your local economy: in the long term it will not.
For those sitting in Dublin thinking that this money would be better spent on local infrastructure: in the long term you either need the regions to become stronger, or resign yourself to subsidising the entire country and never complain again. This project has one of the best cost:benefit ratios of all infrastructure projects in the country.

Galway and Limerick combined have less population than Cork, but have an intercity motorway between them, a motorway each to Dublin and a motorway north to Tuam. Wonderful infrastructure projects. Where were all our motorway objectors when these were being built?

orangerhyme

Limerick74 wrote: »

Dr Edgar Morgenroth, DCU on local radio in Limerick this morning discussing the M20. https://www.live95fm.ie/on-air/shows/limerick-today/limerick-today-podcasts/february-2018/limerick-today-economist-has-his-say-on-comments/

He's a very well educated economist and makes a lot of good points.

His opinion is that based on empirical evidence the top criteria to invest in order to grow cities is skilled workforce, broadband, infrastructure within cities, affordable housing etc...
He said motorways are way down the list.

He said both Limerick and Cork have their own airports and ports, so it isnt absolutely necessary to build a motorway between them to stimulate growth.
The money would be far better spent on investing in the cities themselves.

hans aus dtschl

orangerhyme wrote: »

He's a very well educated economist and makes a lot of good points.

His opinion is that based on empirical evidence the top criteria to invest in order to grow cities is skilled workforce, broadband, infrastructure within cities, affordable housing etc...
He said motorways are way down the list.

He said both Limerick and Cork have their own airports and ports, so it isnt absolutely necessary to build a motorway between them to stimulate growth.
The money would be far better spent on investing in the cities themselves.

It's not to stimulate growth in either city specifically, but it will stimulate economic growth of the whole region.

Once again, where were all these motorway objectors when the entire rest of the motorway network was being built?

Cork, Limerick and Galway's economies are based on actually making things that are then shipped. It's not a fully service-oriented economy like Dublin. We're talking about huge factories, NOT in the city centre.

I'm sorry, it's getting to the point where I can't believe we're having to explain such simple concepts.

markodaly

pigtown wrote: »

They have never done a proper assessment and can't possibly say what the demand will be. And there's no reason why the option costing billions is the only one.

Smoke and mirrors, that is all. We do not have the population or density at the moment to support large scale funding into more inter urban rail.

There is a direct train from Cork to Dublin, yet many people use the road instead of a train. I heard that for everyone one passanger on a train in Cork, there is two going by bus. That is not even taking in people who drive themselvevs or who drive from the likes of Fermoy, Cashel and so on.

I'm absolutely not saying the N20 is suitable, I'm saying that a motorway isn't automatically the only alternative to the current one. And the Limerick-Limerick Junction line is single track with a passing loop. Trains regularly stop half way to let the opposite one pass. And why is massive spend ok for roads but not rail?

What are the daily passanger numbers for the Limerick train? Compare that with any commuter train in the GDA. You will get your answer to your question then.

The problem in Ireland though is that motorways transport goods and people from urban areas to small towns and villages and one-off houses in the countryside. Look at any figures and you'll see that very few journeys are made end-to-end relative to overall traffic. We would be better off if people didn't commute ti and from the cities, rather lived and worked in the same place.

What are you on about. Motorways do NOT transport goods an people from urban areas to small town and one off houses.

Our motorway network at the moment connects urban centres to other urban centres. Waterford to Dublin, Cork to Dublin, Galway to Dublin.
Now with the M17/18 we connect Limerick to Galway and onwards to Tuam, with the long term strategy here is going to be Sligo and Derry over the next 10-20 years.

That is why the rules surrounding motorways developments are much stricter then that of other roads. For example, you cannot have a junction on a Motorway leading into a housing estate or some retail park. Its against the law to have junctions like that. It is why junctions on Motorways are restricted.

The M20 will primarily be a road to connect the two biggest urban centres in the country, outside of Dublin of course. It will also connect Galway/Cork to each other and in future it will connect Sligo and Derry to the southern cities.

What figures are these you are talking about?

Your last point negates your point about rail, so not sure what you are on about.

orangerhyme

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

It's not to stimulate growth in either city specifically, but it will stimulate economic growth of the whole region.

Once again, where were all these motorway objectors when the entire rest of the motorway network was being built?

Cork, Limerick and Galway's economies are based on actually making things that are then shipped. It's not a fully service-oriented economy like Dublin. We're talking about huge factories, NOT in the city centre.

I'm sorry, it's getting to the point where I can't believe we're having to explain such simple concepts.

He's written papers going back years on how much money we waste on motorways in the hope of stimulating growth, yet there's no evidence to back this up.
What good did it do Waterford or Mullingar or Portlaois?
He's not saying motorways are pointless, just that the money could be better spent elsewhere.

For example would the money in Cork be better spent on infrastructure in the docklands to attract Foreign Direct Investment. Modern offices, affordable housing, high speed broadband, an enterprise center for startups, research facility for UCC/CIT etc in the docklands would surely attract more investment and jobs than a motorway to Limerick.
It makes complete sense when you think about it.
Theres an airport and port already in Cork and if theres plenty of housing and jobs in Cork, why the big need for a motorway?
Similar investment could be made in Limerick too.
Its a fallacy that motorways stimulate growth.

markodaly

orangerhyme wrote: »

He's a very well educated economist and makes a lot of good points.

I can understand where he is coming from in terms of developing urban cores. He even admits that there are other perfectly good reasons why the M20 should be upgraded. Yet, he is arguing a point that not many people are making.

To grow Cork and Limerick cores, you need planning and investment from both public and private to do that. You also need good connectivity to other markers and urban centres. In other words you need two. He fully accepts that the road should be upgraded but not just now. In other words he is looking for a perfect scenario before we upgrade the road.

To me, if money is available and if the road is not suitable as is, then go away and do it, as when its done, people can actually focus on the city cores themselves.

We have reached this stage with Dublin with the M50 and port tunnel sold as magic bullets, yet now everyone has realised that to improve transport in Dublin you need to invest in infrastructure. That is not to say the motorway to Cork or Galway was a waste, of course not. It just solved a different problem.

Put it this way, building the M20 will solve one problem, but there will be others and when its time either now or later to talk about these problems, the M20 'problem' will be off the table.

orangerhyme

markodaly wrote: »

I can understand where he is coming from in terms of developing urban cores. He even admits that there are other perfectly good reasons why the M20 should be upgraded. Yet, he is arguing a point that not many people are making.

To grow Cork and Limerick cores, you need planning and investment from both public and private to do that. You also need good connectivity to other markers and urban centres. In other words you need two. He fully accepts that the road should be upgraded but not just now. In other words he is looking for a perfect scenario before we upgrade the road.

To me, if money is available and if the road is not suitable as is, then go away and do it, as when its done, people can actually focus on the city cores themselves.

We have reached this stage with Dublin with the M50 and port tunnel sold as magic bullets, yet now everyone has realised that to improve transport in Dublin you need to invest in infrastructure. That is not to say the motorway to Cork or Galway was a waste, of course not. It just solved a different problem.

Put it this way, building the M20 will solve one problem, but there will be others and when its time either now or later to talk about these problems, the M20 'problem' will be off the table.

He was talking in the context of developing regional cities as a counter balance to Dublin and within that context, a motorway isnt the best use of limited resources.

If you want to attract FDI to Cork, you need skilled workforce, affordable and modern offices and housing, industrial/commercial parks, modern telecommunications, airport, port, etc....motorway is way down the list.
I agree with him. Use the money on the docklands in Cork, the land needs to be prepared and a bridge across the river.

orangerhyme

orangerhyme wrote: »

He was talking in the context of developing regional cities as a counter balance to Dublin and within that context, a motorway isnt the best use of limited resources.

If you want to attract FDI to Cork, you need skilled workforce, affordable and modern offices and housing, industrial/commercial parks, modern telecommunications, airport, port, etc....motorway is way down the list.
I agree with him. Use the money on the docklands in Cork, the land needs to be prepared and a bridge across the river.

If a large multinational was thinking of setting up in Cork, how much would they care if there's a motorway to Limerick?

Isambard

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Gort and Tuam combined have less people than Mallow but yet are served by motorway. In fact combining nearly every village and town between Gort and Tuam would barely produce a bigger population than Mallow and its hinterland.

the huge hinterland who access the motorway system through Mallow currently.

Pete_Cavan

orangerhyme wrote: »

He's written papers going back years on how much money we waste on motorways in the hope of stimulating growth, yet there's no evidence to back this up.
What good did it do Waterford or Mullingar or Portlaois?

Ah come on. Those towns, and numerous others around the country, would be in a near constant state of gridlock if they were not bypassed. You could argue whether motorway bypasses were needed but even if they were overspec'd, that is better in the long term. The motorways is one of the few things this country did right first time.