M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

markodaly

pigtown wrote: »

I wonder does anyone know of a concrete example of how linking Limerick and Galway with a motorway actually improved things?

From what I hear on the ground, Shannon airport seems to be on the up as the M17/18 makes it easier for people in the region to choose it over Dublin Airport.

The HSE announced creating two trauma centres in the state, one in Cork and Dublin. While Galway will be designated a trauma unit. Not sure about the provision of Helicopters for air-lifts which is part of the plan but having a motorway network is also a necessity.

markodaly

orangerhyme wrote: »

He was talking in the context of developing regional cities as a counter balance to Dublin and within that context, a motorway isnt the best use of limited resources.

If you want to attract FDI to Cork, you need skilled workforce, affordable and modern offices and housing, industrial/commercial parks, modern telecommunications, airport, port, etc....motorway is way down the list.
I agree with him. Use the money on the docklands in Cork, the land needs to be prepared and a bridge across the river.

How do we know that money is not there for that? Remember the M20 will cost about €850 million, out of the €115 Billion that is due to be spent. That is less than 0.8% of the capital budget. You would swear this is the only project on the list and the amount of negative press it has gotten is unreal

The Docklands development is already ere marked. Horgans Quay, Anderson Quay are being developed right now. The plan for the docklands is expected to be released in the next month or so. There are plans for over 20,000 units of housing along with offices, bridges, entertainment and transport expected to be provisioned. This is a ten year plan at least.

In other words, work on developing both Limerick and Cork core is already underway. We cannot wait 30 years and then develop the M20, it already sticks out like a sore thumb.

orangerhyme

markodaly wrote: »

From what I hear on the ground, Shannon airport seems to be on the up as the M17/18 makes it easier for people in the region to choose it over Dublin Airport.

The HSE announced creating two trauma centres in the state, one in Cork and Dublin. While Galway will be designated a trauma unit. Not sure about the provision of Helicopters for air-lifts which is part of the plan but having a motorway network is also a necessity.

It makes sense to me since Galway has neither a proper airport or port so needs a good link to Limerick.
I don't see why it was extended to Tuam though, was it absolutely necessary?
I think they should have stopped at the M6 and used the money on a ring road of Galway since its traffic problems seem to be hindering development.

markodaly

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Once again, where were all these motorway objectors when the entire rest of the motorway network was being built?

.

Yes, exactly. Where we the objections to the M17/18 when it was being built. You could say, "Why build a motorway to a town of 8,000 people". Well you could frame the debate that way but of course that is stupid.

We built the M17/18 as part of the Atlantic Corridor, where the end goal is to connect the South (Cork/Waterford) to the North (Letterkenny/Derry) via Limerick, Shannon,Galway and Sligo. All of them important urban centres.

You may as well have stated, why did we build a motorway to Urlingford, when of course we built the M8/M7 to connect Limerick and Cork to Dublin.

The Motorway system is an All-Ireland network. Look at the Interstate in the US, it was built not necessarily to bypass or connect small towns, it was built so that the military and commerce can transport goods and people easily from one side of the country to the other, East to West or North to South.

AugustusMinimus

It’s still amazes me. I didn’t hearing anything in the press or in here complaining about the M17/M18 being a waste of money.

Yet the M20 which will link the 2nd and 3rd biggest cities in the state is a bad idea? It boggles the mind.

Why is this scheme getting so much heat. What brings out this hatred of the scheme in people. Should Cork not get development cash? Talks of high speed rail is absolute pie in the sky stuff. All that would happen is the M20 getting cancelled and then the rail would never get built. And in the end, it wouldn’t solve any where near the problems that the M20 will solve.

Thank god both FG and FF want this motorway built.

orangerhyme

markodaly wrote: »

How do we know that money is not there for that? Remember the M20 will cost about €850 million, out of the €115 Billion that is due to be spent. That is less than 0.8% of the capital budget. You would swear this is the only project on the list and the amount of negative press it has gotten is unreal

The Docklands development is already ere marked. Horgans Quay, Anderson Quay are being developed right now. The plan for the docklands is expected to be released in the next month or so. There are plans for over 20,000 units of housing along with offices, bridges, entertainment and transport expected to be provisioned. This is a ten year plan at least.

In other words, work on developing both Limerick and Cork core is already underway. We cannot wait 30 years and then develop the M20, it already sticks out like a sore thumb.

Personally Im not opposed to it. Im from Kerry so it will mean Kerry will be just 30 minutes from the national motorway network which will be good for us.
But I agree with the economist in his points about how the money could be better spent elsewhere in the context of developing regional cities as a counter balance to Dublin.
He's an expert in this, been reseaching it for decades.

markodaly

orangerhyme wrote: »

It makes sense to me since Galway has neither a proper airport or port so needs a good link to Limerick.
I don't see why it was extended to Tuam though, was it absolutely necessary?
I think they should have stopped at the M6 and used the money on a ring road of Galway since its traffic problems seem to be hindering development.

That ring road is being planned, but Galway Co Council are making a cluster **** out of the whole thing.

Sure, right now in this moment in time, it may make sense to have the ring road first. But in 5 years time we will end up in the same position regardless.

Sometimes projects get bogged down in red tape, while other less worthy projects fly along and get done before. That is the way it goes some times.

Charles Babbage

orangerhyme wrote: »

He's an expert in this, been reseaching it for decades.

He has an agenda, like many people here.

The M20 should not be an either/or with developments in Limerick or Cork, both are needed. In addition, there is a significant agribusess along thos route, with associated truck traffic and Mallow is a reasonable contender as a distibution hub for Munster.

markodaly

orangerhyme wrote: »

Personally Im not opposed to it. Im from Kerry so it will mean Kerry will be just 30 minutes from the national motorway network which will be good for us.
But I agree with the economist in his points about how the money could be better spent elsewhere in the context of developing regional cities as a counter balance to Dublin.
He's an expert in this, been reseaching it for decades.

Experts can be wrong. Remember the same experts giving out about LUAS and that it would be a white elephant?
I remember the same experts giving out about motorways building from the likes of Limerick and Galway to Dublin, instead had utopian ideas about high speed rail.

This guy is on record as well about being wrong about things like the Slane by-pass.

As, I said he makes a good case but I feel he is arguing against a different question, about core city density. No one is saying that this road will solve that issue. This road does solve other problems though and he even agreed that in other ways, this road is entirely justified.

orangerhyme

markodaly wrote: »

That ring road is being planned, but Galway Co Council are making a cluster **** out of the whole thing.

Sure, right now in this moment in time, it may make sense to have the ring road first. But in 5 years time we will end up in the same position regardless.

Sometimes projects get bogged down in red tape, while other less worthy projects fly along and get done before. That is the way it goes some times.

Part of me thinks Enda Kenny pushed for it to be extended to Tuam since its close to Mayo..

markodaly

orangerhyme wrote: »

If a large multinational was thinking of setting up in Cork, how much would they care if there's a motorway to Limerick?

Seeing as its most likely that this multinational is American and that Shannon has daily flights to Boston year round and 3 flights daily on a seasonal basis, having this available to you, an hour up the road would be a substantial factor in setting up there.

mrsoundie

Thinking back before the motorways, I remember the traffic in Ennis and how bad it was, not forgetting Newmarket On Fergus and then up North towards Gort and the endless tailbacks, especially when Galway race week was on.

Then anytime I had to travel to Dublin from Limerick, it was at least a four-hour journey that now, praise the stars is in and around two and a half hours.

Simply the improvement of the quality of life for the towns on the N20 and the health and well being of anyone traveling along the N20 would be greatly improved. This in itself is worth the eight hundred and fifty million euro being spent.

That pales into insignificance when you take into account the loss of lives that have occurred on that road, which could have been avoided with its upgrade to a motorway.

Eight hundred and fifty million euro for one life saved, I don't mind paying that.

orangerhyme

markodaly wrote: »

Seeing as its most likely that this multinational is American and that Shannon has daily flights to Boston year round and 3 flights daily on a seasonal basis, having this available to you, an hour up the road would be a substantial factor in setting up there.

Its a good point, but Cork airport now offers transatlantic flights and is 10 minutes outside the city.
Also it makes more economic sense for the government to incentivise flights from Cork to the States than building a one billion motorway to an airport an hour an a half away.

I think it will get built anyway, so it doesnt matter, and like I said, I think it will be good for Kerry so Im overall supportive.

I do think in Ireland we have a major fetish for roads and motorways and miss whats really important.
We have major housing crisis, mental health crisis, homeless crisis, etc but we have a motorway to Tuam...

orangerhyme

mrsoundie wrote: »

Thinking back before the motorways, I remember the traffic in Ennis and how bad it was, not forgetting Newmarket On Fergus and then up North towards Gort and the endless tailbacks, especially when Galway race week was on.

Then anytime I had to travel to Dublin from Limerick, it was at least a four-hour journey that now, praise the stars is in and around two and a half hours.

Simply the improvement of the quality of life for the towns on the N20 and the health and well being of anyone traveling along the N20 would be greatly improved. This in itself is worth the eight hundred and fifty million euro being spent.

That pales into insignificance when you take into account the loss of lives that have occurred on that road, which could have been avoided with its upgrade to a motorway.

Eight hundred and fifty million euro for one life saved, I don't mind paying that.

I also definitely think a northen ring road for Cork from the south ring - N20 - M8 would be more beneficial for Corks growth than a motorway to Limerick, if I as given the choice

alias no.9

The current road is not fit for purpose and put simply, lives are being lost as a consequence.

You can do a do a half assed piecemeal series of bypasses which would help to a degree but it surely at this point we've learned that when you do a half assed job at infrastructure, you end up doing it twice and more to the point, paying for it twice.

On top of this, an upgraded non motorway N20 would be worse for sprawl and ribbon development with a multitude more access points.

markodaly

orangerhyme wrote: »

Its a good point, but Cork airport now offers transatlantic flights and is 10 minutes outside the city.
Also it makes more economic sense for the government to incentivise flights from Cork to the States than building a one billion motorway to an airport an hour an a half away.

I think it will get built anyway, so it doesnt matter, and like I said, I think it will be good for Kerry so Im overall supportive.

I do think in Ireland we have a major fetish for roads and motorways and miss whats really important.
We have major housing crisis, mental health crisis, homeless crisis, etc but we have a motorway to Tuam...

Those Norwegian airlines flights are shaky at best. Its good of course that they offer them but they could be gone next year. Shannon have had transatlantic flights for 50 years plus pre clearance.

About the other things you mention, Irelands population is due to reach Famine era levels in the next 20-30 years. How are we expected to move people around if we still have 19th century type roads?

We are too small for rail, so we have to compensate by roads.

orangerhyme

markodaly wrote: »

Those Norwegian airlines flights are shaky at best. Its good of course that they offer them but they could be gone next year. Shannon have had transatlantic flights for 50 years plus pre clearance.

About the other things you mention, Irelands population is due to reach Famine era levels in the next 20-30 years. How are we expected to move people around if we still have 19th century type roads?

We are too small for rail, so we have to compensate by roads.

I agree about rail. I think it works best for commuters but its not so good in Ireland for intercity.
Theyre busy Fridays to Monday morning, but empty the rest of the time.

I think this motorway will have a huge impact on north Cork in particular in terms of population growth, jobs, housebuilding etc..mallow in particular

alias no.9

orangerhyme wrote: »

I do think in Ireland we have a major fetish for roads and motorways and miss whats really important.
We have major housing crisis, mental health crisis, homeless crisis, etc but we have a motorway to Tuam...

The big problem in Ireland is not the still incomplete interurban motorway network but the thousands of miles of L roads that along with poor planning have enabled population dispersion patterns that have seen our smaller towns and villages die, along with many bigger ones. Quite simply we tarred too many miles of boreen that should have been left as green lanes.

The lack of critical mass means poor or often no services. It doesn't mean everyone has to live in cities but if you took your typical rural market town and took all the one off houses built in a 10 mile radius over the past 50 years and clustered even 80% of them in town, you'd have a vibrant town. Vibrancy attracts new people and you start to develop the counterbalance that's needed to Dublin nationally, to Cork, Limerick and Galway regionally and so on...

orangerhyme

alias no.9 wrote: »

The big problem in Ireland is not the still incomplete interurban motorway network but the thousands of miles of L roads that along with poor planning have enabled population dispersion patterns that have seen our smaller towns and villages die, along with many bigger ones. Quite simply we tarred too many miles of boreen that should have been left as green lanes.

The lack of critical mass means poor or often no services. It doesn't mean everyone has to live in cities but if you took your typical rural market town and took all the one off houses built in a 10 mile radius over the past 50 years and clustered even 80% of them in town, you'd have a vibrant town. Vibrancy attracts new people and you start to develop the counterbalance that's needed to Dublin nationally, to Cork, Limerick and Galway regionally and so on...

I agree 100%.
Where im from in kerry, the villages have died out with just old people living in them and all the new families live in one off houses and bungalows spread out around the countryside.
Ideally, Small estates should have been planned radiating out from the village and then the villages would be bustling now.
From what I know now, this type of planning has been implemented and more people are living in or close to villages but still, a lot of the damage has been done.
Nowdays its pretty difficult to get planning permission in open fields but if its your land or youre from the area its stills possible

Isambard

orangerhyme wrote: »

I agree 100%.
Where im from in kerry, the villages have died out with just old people living in them and all the new families live in one off houses and bungalows spread out around the countryside.
Ideally, Small estates should have been planned radiating out from the village and then the villages would be bustling now.
From what I know now, this type of planning has been implemented and more people are living in or close to villages but still, a lot of the damage has been done.
Nowdays its pretty difficult to get planning permission in open fields but if its your land or youre from the area its stills possible

visit any village around here and see the half finished estates....

Charles Babbage

orangerhyme wrote: »

I agree 100%.
Where im from in kerry, the villages have died out with just old people living in them and all the new families live in one off houses and bungalows spread out around the countryside.
Ideally, Small estates should have been planned radiating out from the village and then the villages would be bustling now.
From what I know now, this type of planning has been implemented and more people are living in or close to villages but still, a lot of the damage has been done.
Nowdays its pretty difficult to get planning permission in open fields but if its your land or youre from the area its stills possible

Local authorities have typically done nothing to ensure a supply of houses close the the village. They should have been acquiriing sites, compulsorily if needed, building the roads etc here and ensure that small builders could build a few houses at all times so that there was a liquid market for different types of house.
The emphasis is always on stopping people doing things, rather than encouraging people to do things.

fonzy951

markodaly wrote: »

Those Norwegian airlines flights are shaky at best. Its good of course that they offer them but they could be gone next year. Shannon have had transatlantic flights for 50 years plus pre clearance.

About the other things you mention, Irelands population is due to reach Famine era levels in the next 20-30 years. How are we expected to move people around if we still have 19th century type roads?

We are too small for rail, so we have to compensate by roads.

Cork has a substantial amount of US companies (Pharma + IT), most business travelers use Cork airport to connect to the US via Heathrow, CDG, Schiphol. These hub airports provide the range of destinations and frequency which is required by MN's, which Shannon can't provide, even with the new motorway this won't change.
We need to invest in both motorway's as well as city infrastructure, an either or argument is ridiculous.

orangerhyme

fonzy951 wrote: »

Cork has a substantial amount of US companies (Pharma + IT), most business travelers use Cork airport to connect to the US via Heathrow, CDG, Schiphol. These hub airports provide the range of destinations and frequency which is required by MN's, which Shannon can't provide, even with the new motorway this won't change.
We need to invest in both motorway's as well as city infrastructure, an either or argument is ridiculous.

I think economists think in terms of "oppurtunity cost" i.e. any limited resource such as money being spent on one thing is not being spent on something else, so every decision is an either or argument.
I think he made a lot of sense in his points, but like I said, he's coming at it from a perspective of developing Limerick and Cork as counterbalances to Dublin and how might the investment best be spent.

For example, in that context, I think the money would be better spent on a northern ring road for Cork and a bridge from Tivoli to the Docklands and also developing the docklands.

orangerhyme

Isambard wrote: »

visit any village around here and see the half finished estates....

Yes but theyre relatively recent developments, Im talking about all the bungalows and one off housing that was built in the 70's, 80's and 90's.
It would have been far better to have these houses in well planned estates radiating out from villages.

Water John

The Irish have a long history of dispersed living. We like our own patch. Seamus Caulfield of Ceide Fields would support that. We differ from Europeans in that and its equally valid.

Charles Babbage

Water John wrote: »

The Irish have a long history of dispersed living. We like our own patch. Seamus Caulfield of Ceide Fields would support that. We differ from Europeans in that and its equally valid.

But many posters here are anti Irish and wish to eliminate any distinctive Irish characteristics.

fonzy951

orangerhyme wrote: »

I think economists think in terms of "oppurtunity cost" i.e. any limited resource such as money being spent on one thing is not being spent on something else, so every decision is an either or argument.
I think he made a lot of sense in his points, but like I said, he's coming at it from a perspective of developing Limerick and Cork as counterbalances to Dublin and how might the investment best be spent.

For example, in that context, I think the money would be better spent on a northern ring road for Cork and a bridge from Tivoli to the Docklands and also developing the docklands.

The government would easily have the money for ALL this critical loooong overdue infrastructure, if it wasn't being squandered. Much poorer countries all over Europe constantly invest far more in their infrastructure.

Aontachtoir

Charles Babbage wrote: »

But many posters here are anti Irish and wish to eliminate any distinctive Irish characteristics.

What is that even supposed to mean, and what does it have to do with the M20?

Reputable Rog

orangerhyme wrote: »

I agree about rail. I think it works best for commuters but its not so good in Ireland for intercity.
Theyre busy Fridays to Monday morning, but empty the rest of the time.

I think this motorway will have a huge impact on north Cork in particular in terms of population growth, jobs, housebuilding etc..mallow in particular

Sshh Pigtown will try and take an injunction if he sees this.
Scuppering his dream of everyone living in 35 storey tower blocks and everyone travelling by Mono Rail powered by hemp oil and travelling intercity by bullet train.

orangerhyme

https://www.nratrafficdata.ie/c2/gmapbasic.asp?sgid=ZvyVmXU8jBt9PJE$c7UXt6

If you look here the statistic dont even make it seem very necessary.
There isnt a large number of people commuting from Cork to Limerick and vice versa so theres actually busier roads in worse condition which will never get a motorway.
You can see the number of road users really drops off after Mallow, which show lots of people commuting from Mallow to Cork.
The road from Clonakilty/Bandon to Cork is just as busy but nobody is suggesting a motorway for that.

Its actually just not that busy a road. The road from Midleton to Cork is far, far busier.