M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

marno21

orangerhyme wrote: »

Would a few bypasses of Buttervant, Charleville etc and a Dual Carriageway be enough for the N20 or does it definitely need a motorway?

In terms of the appraisal of an improved route from Cork-Limerick, or indeed a new Cork-Limerick strategic link that a motorway is the preferred option. A motorway in this term is a 4 lane DC with a narrow median.

orangerhyme

Capital investment is a limited resource so everything is either/or. It all comes from our taxes. Despite the recovery, we're still 200 billion in debt. Its always good to question whats the best investment.

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Transport/Road/Motorway-length-per-capita

The above link shows we are up with the most developed countries in terms of motorway length per capita. And thats from 2014, so once you add on the M17/M18, M20 and any other projects, we would be in the top 10.

I agree with the economist though, I think theres better ways to spend the money.

Calina

orangerhyme wrote: »

Would a few bypasses of Buttervant, Charleville etc and a Dual Carriageway be enough for the N20 or does it definitely need a motorway?

No. It is clear you never drove the bypasses around Mitchelstown before the M8 was complete. Your suggestion is a half assed typical Irish option of let's do as little as we can possibly get away with in the short term. A great example of that biting include M50 bridge planning and the idiotic decision not to integrate the tram lines by design at the start.

AugustusMinimus

Calina wrote: »

No. It is clear you never drove the bypasses around Mitchelstown before the M8 was complete. Your suggestion is a half assed typical Irish option of let's do as little as we can possibly get away with in the short term. A great example of that biting include M50 bridge planning and the idiotic decision not to integrate the tram lines by design at the start.

Dual carriageways without alternative routes are now also no longer built. Hence an offline build is the only option.

Only options are motorway or 2+2. 2+2 not suitable for traffic figures.

Isambard

orangerhyme wrote: »

Would a few bypasses of Buttervant, Charleville etc and a Dual Carriageway be enough for the N20 or does it definitely need a motorway?

to bypass Buttevant and Charleville, and Mallow which I assume is the etc, you'd need extensive works and would still be left with the busiest southern section as is and the dangerous northern section still recognisable to Stage Coach drivers.Making those sections dual carriageway would involve as much expenditure and crucially disruption, that a Motorway all the way is probably no dearer and preferable.

AugustusMinimus

Isambard wrote: »

to bypass Buttevant and Charleville, and Mallow which I assume is the etc, you'd need extensive works and would still be left with the busiest southern section as is and the dangerous northern section still recognisable to Stage Coach drivers.Making those sections dual carriageway would involve as much expenditure and crucially disruption, that a Motorway all the way is probably no dearer and preferable.

Middleton DC is one of the few online builds still around. There are plans to build an alternative route alongside for local access and fully upgrade to HQDC.

The same is happening on the Naas DC.

The day of online dualling is dead. The 80s are gone. Let’s leave them die.

orangerhyme

“We now want to connect Limerick and Cork via the N20 so we can connect Cork Limerick and Galway by motorway and therefore enable them and empower them to grow faster than Dublin in the 10, 15 years ahead,” he said

That's what leo varadkar said.
But according to the economist, all the empirical evidence shows that in terms of developing cities to grow, the investment would be better spent on the actual cities and the people who live there and also on attracting skilled workers as opposed to a road between them.

So in that context, a better investment in Cork would be a north Ring road, urban transport, developing the hundreds of acres of docklands into an SDZ, top class modern telecommunications, research, innovation, education, upskilling, bridge from docklands to Tivoli, tax incentives to attract companies, whatever's neccessary to attract Brexit companies, modern offices etc...


I agree completely. Motorways connecting cities is way down the list.

http://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/Corks-South-Ring-Road-is-20-over-capacity-d84a218f-f93a-4922-b210-ee8355a04049-ds

If you read this article, it's the roads leading into Cork that are over capacity, basically every road including the N20, but only as far as Mallow.
There's no mention of the N20 beyond Mallow to Limerick.
I think a northern Ring road would alleviate a lot of the pressure, combined with a big investment in the docklands to encourage city centre living and working.
Its been said there's money earmarked for this but I've yet to see it.
Theres a time limit to attracting Brexit companies, so you must strike while the iron is hot.

"A spokesperson for TII said the N22 Cork Northern Ring Road project is not included in the Capital Investment Plan due to its scale and competing projects elsewhere in the country."

So, there's a limit to capital investment in infrastructure, so it's either/or.

I'm from Kerry so I think the M20 would be beneficial for us.
But I actually think investment in Cork city itself to attract foreign direct investment would be far more beneficial to Kerry, as Kerry people will naturally gravitate to Cork city if the jobs are there as opposed to moving to Dublin, London, Canada, Oz etc.
This will help rural depopulation somewhat as these people will be weekly commuters.

orangerhyme

orangerhyme wrote: »

“We now want to connect Limerick and Cork via the N20 so we can connect Cork Limerick and Galway by motorway and therefore enable them and empower them to grow faster than Dublin in the 10, 15 years ahead,” he said

That's what leo varadkar said.
But according to the economist, all the empirical evidence shows that in terms of developing cities to grow, the investment would be better spent on the actual cities and the people who live there and also on attracting skilled workers as opposed to a road between them.

So in that context, a better investment in Cork would be a north Ring road, urban transport, developing the hundreds of acres of docklands into an SDZ, top class modern telecommunications, research, innovation, education, upskilling, bridge from docklands to Tivoli, tax incentives to attract companies, whatever's neccessary to attract Brexit companies, modern offices etc...


I agree completely. Motorways connecting cities is way down the list.

http://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/Corks-South-Ring-Road-is-20-over-capacity-d84a218f-f93a-4922-b210-ee8355a04049-ds

If you read this article, it's the roads leading into Cork that are over capacity, basically every road including the N20, but only as far as Mallow.
There's no mention of the N20 beyond Mallow to Limerick.
I think a northern Ring road would alleviate a lot of the pressure, combined with a big investment in the docklands to encourage city centre living and working.
Its been said there's money earmarked for this but I've yet to see it.
Theres a time limit to attracting Brexit companies, so you must strike while the iron is hot.

"A spokesperson for TII said the N22 Cork Northern Ring Road project is not included in the Capital Investment Plan due to its scale and competing projects elsewhere in the country."

So, there's a limit to capital investment in infrastructure, so it's either/or.

I'm from Kerry so I think the M20 would be beneficial for us.
But I actually think investment in Cork city itself to attract foreign direct investment would be far more beneficial to Kerry, as Kerry people will naturally gravitate to Cork city if the jobs are there as opposed to moving to Dublin, London, Canada, Oz etc.
This will help rural depopulation somewhat as these people will be weekly commuters.

For example, if you were working for the IDA giving a presentation to a UK or American company to persuade them to set up in Cork, how much emphasis would you give to the road to Limerick, how many questions would they ask about the road to Limerick??

The major talking points would be: skilled workers, offices, facilities, tax, telecommunications, housing etc...

AugustusMinimus

orangerhyme wrote: »

For example, if you were working for the IDA giving a presentation to a UK or American company to persuade them to set up in Cork, how much emphasis would you give to the road to Limerick, how many questions would they ask about the road to Limerick??

The major talking points would be: skilled workers, offices, facilities, tax, telecommunications, housing etc...

A lot if it was a US company due to the volume of US flights going through Shannon.

snotboogie

orangerhyme wrote: »

“We now want to connect Limerick and Cork via the N20 so we can connect Cork Limerick and Galway by motorway and therefore enable them and empower them to grow faster than Dublin in the 10, 15 years ahead,” he said

That's what leo varadkar said.
But according to the economist, all the empirical evidence shows that in terms of developing cities to grow, the investment would be better spent on the actual cities and the people who live there and also on attracting skilled workers as opposed to a road between them.

So in that context, a better investment in Cork would be a north Ring road, urban transport, developing the hundreds of acres of docklands into an SDZ, top class modern telecommunications, research, innovation, education, upskilling, bridge from docklands to Tivoli, tax incentives to attract companies, whatever's neccessary to attract Brexit companies, modern offices etc...


I agree completely. Motorways connecting cities is way down the list.

http://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/Corks-South-Ring-Road-is-20-over-capacity-d84a218f-f93a-4922-b210-ee8355a04049-ds

If you read this article, it's the roads leading into Cork that are over capacity, basically every road including the N20, but only as far as Mallow.
There's no mention of the N20 beyond Mallow to Limerick.
I think a northern Ring road would alleviate a lot of the pressure, combined with a big investment in the docklands to encourage city centre living and working.
Its been said there's money earmarked for this but I've yet to see it.
Theres a time limit to attracting Brexit companies, so you must strike while the iron is hot.

"A spokesperson for TII said the N22 Cork Northern Ring Road project is not included in the Capital Investment Plan due to its scale and competing projects elsewhere in the country."

So, there's a limit to capital investment in infrastructure, so it's either/or.

I'm from Kerry so I think the M20 would be beneficial for us.
But I actually think investment in Cork city itself to attract foreign direct investment would be far more beneficial to Kerry, as Kerry people will naturally gravitate to Cork city if the jobs are there as opposed to moving to Dublin, London, Canada, Oz etc.
This will help rural depopulation somewhat as these people will be weekly commuters.

There is a billion of public money being spent in the docklands over the next few years: 
€1bn Cork docklands project to move forward in 2018
There is also millions of euro of private invest pouring in there for office and hotel developments:
Work to begin on Cork's largest office development this summer
A new €160 million development at Horgan's Quay will be home to 5,000 employees, more than 200 apartments and a 136-bed hotel
City Hall begins talks with skyscraper developers
Considering there is huge investment already going into the docklands, with feasibility studies on light rail and public transport and the NRR will have to be built at some stage if the M20 is completed, where do you think that the money should be spent?

orangerhyme

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

A lot if it was a US company due to the volume of US flights going through Shannon.

Yet Cork has far more US companies than Limerick.

Airlines will fly to where to the demand is and Cork Airport has lots of capacity to cater for this.

jacksie66

This post has been deleted.

what_traffic

orangerhyme wrote: »

Would a few bypasses of Buttervant, Charleville etc and a Dual Carriageway be enough for the N20 or does it definitely need a motorway?

It would benefit the towns themselves more.

http://www.galwaycycling.org/cyclists-back-calls-for-rethink-on-npf-motorway-proposals/
"
The proposed M20 will lead to a failure of the National Planning Framework’s efforts to grow the cities of Cork and Limerick as distributed sprawl will be encouraged. Among towns along the route, such as Mallow and Charleville, ring roads will still be needed for sustainable development. Building the bypasses now would fix many of the problems that the M20 is supposed to fix. The Galway Cycling Campaign believe that the opening of the M17/M18 has already hampered the growth prospects of Galway city under the NPF and has not removed the through-traffic in villages like Claregalway and Clarinbridge.
"

Calina

I would like orangerhyme to let me know how many people he or she is happy to allow to die on the current N20. Whether they have spent much time trying to get through Charleville on a Friday afternoon. But mostly...

How many lives is it worth to leave things the way they are?

Calina

orangerhyme wrote: »

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

A lot if it was a US company due to the volume of US flights going through Shannon.

Yet Cork has far more US companies than Limerick.

Airlines will fly to where to the demand is and Cork Airport has lots of capacity to cater for this.

Airlines are not flying to Cork. Not to fit US business anyway.

Shn99

orangerhyme wrote: »

Yet Cork has far more US companies than Limerick.

Airlines will fly to where to the demand is and Cork Airport has lots of capacity to cater for this.

Your forgetting Shannon agree Zone is located right beside Shannon Airport. 7,000+ employees and 150+ companies. Largest cluster of North American FDI in Ireland

snotboogie

Shn99 wrote: »

orangerhyme wrote: »

Yet Cork has far more US companies than Limerick.

Airlines will fly to where to the demand is and Cork Airport has lots of capacity to cater for this.

Your forgetting Shannon agree Zone is located right beside Shannon Airport. 7,000+ employees and 150+ companies. Largest cluster of North American FDI in Ireland

That can't be right, there are over 1,000 companies in Little Island with far more than 7,000 employees, the vast majority are North American FDI. I would imagine the docklands in Dublin and even Ringaskiddy would have far more North American FDI than 7k jobs...

orangerhyme

Calina wrote: »

I would like orangerhyme to let me know how many people he or she is happy to allow to die on the current N20. Whether they have spent much time trying to get through Charleville on a Friday afternoon. But mostly...

How many lives is it worth to leave things the way they are?

This is an emotionally loaded question and difficult to answer without sounding insensitive. Every death in the roads is a regrettable tragedy.

As regards trying to get through Charleville, far far more people are stuck on the roads in and out of Cork city.

orangerhyme

snotboogie wrote: »

There is a billion of public money being spent in the docklands over the next few years: 
€1bn Cork docklands project to move forward in 2018
There is also millions of euro of private invest pouring in there for office and hotel developments:
Work to begin on Cork's largest office development this summer
A new €160 million development at Horgan's Quay will be home to 5,000 employees, more than 200 apartments and a 136-bed hotel
City Hall begins talks with skyscraper developers
Considering there is huge investment already going into the docklands, with feasibility studies on light rail and public transport and the NRR will have to be built at some stage if the M20 is completed, where do you think that the money should be spent?

I've already listed the areas on which the money would be better spent.
I've also quoted the TII saying therees not capital investment available for the NRR when it's clearly more important.
As regards the docklands development, it could be done better and faster with more money.

marno21

orangerhyme wrote: »

Capital investment is a limited resource so everything is either/or. It all comes from our taxes. Despite the recovery, we're still 200 billion in debt. Its always good to question whats the best investment.

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Transport/Road/Motorway-length-per-capita

The above link shows we are up with the most developed countries in terms of motorway length per capita. And thats from 2014, so once you add on the M17/M18, M20 and any other projects, we would be in the top 10.

I agree with the economist though, I think theres better ways to spend the money.

The reason why Ireland's level of "motorway" is so high is because in 2009 the decision was made to designate our dual carriageways as motorways to stop gombeen Councils riddling them with development.

There is a stark contrast in standard of our original planned motorways (M1 to Dundalk, M4 to Kinnegad, M7 to Portlaoise, M11 to Bray and M50) and the much narrower and twistier DCs such as the M6, M7 west of Portlaoise, M8, M9, and M18.

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Middleton DC is one of the few online builds still around. There are plans to build an alternative route alongside for local access and fully upgrade to HQDC.

The same is happening on the Naas DC.

The day of online dualling is dead. The 80s are gone. Let’s leave them die.

Exactly. Almost all of the online dualling in Ireland has received substantial upgrades or was abandoned/given a lower speed limit.

orangerhyme wrote: »

“We now want to connect Limerick and Cork via the N20 so we can connect Cork Limerick and Galway by motorway and therefore enable them and empower them to grow faster than Dublin in the 10, 15 years ahead,” he said

That's what leo varadkar said.
But according to the economist, all the empirical evidence shows that in terms of developing cities to grow, the investment would be better spent on the actual cities and the people who live there and also on attracting skilled workers as opposed to a road between them.

So in that context, a better investment in Cork would be a north Ring road, urban transport, developing the hundreds of acres of docklands into an SDZ, top class modern telecommunications, research, innovation, education, upskilling, bridge from docklands to Tivoli, tax incentives to attract companies, whatever's neccessary to attract Brexit companies, modern offices etc...


I agree completely. Motorways connecting cities is way down the list.

http://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/Corks-South-Ring-Road-is-20-over-capacity-d84a218f-f93a-4922-b210-ee8355a04049-ds

If you read this article, it's the roads leading into Cork that are over capacity, basically every road including the N20, but only as far as Mallow.
There's no mention of the N20 beyond Mallow to Limerick.
I think a northern Ring road would alleviate a lot of the pressure, combined with a big investment in the docklands to encourage city centre living and working.
Its been said there's money earmarked for this but I've yet to see it.
Theres a time limit to attracting Brexit companies, so you must strike while the iron is hot.

"A spokesperson for TII said the N22 Cork Northern Ring Road project is not included in the Capital Investment Plan due to its scale and competing projects elsewhere in the country."

So, there's a limit to capital investment in infrastructure, so it's either/or.

I'm from Kerry so I think the M20 would be beneficial for us.
But I actually think investment in Cork city itself to attract foreign direct investment would be far more beneficial to Kerry, as Kerry people will naturally gravitate to Cork city if the jobs are there as opposed to moving to Dublin, London, Canada, Oz etc.
This will help rural depopulation somewhat as these people will be weekly commuters.

TII's quote about the Northern Ring is about the old Capital Plan where Enda Kenny was vehemently against spending any reasonable form of money in the south west. There were a few Cork projects included as not doing so would vastly hurt Fine Gael in Cork, especially Michael Creed.

No one is doubting the investment needed in Cork's Docklands, a lot of which will be private investment. Nobody is doubting the need for an M20 which caters to a lot of industry and people along the route as well as in the two cities.

orangerhyme wrote: »

Yet Cork has far more US companies than Limerick.

Airlines will fly to where to the demand is and Cork Airport has lots of capacity to cater for this.

Cork Airport's runway at present is limited in that it can't take most forms of aircraft transatlantic. At present it can only take a 737 MAX or a 757 with one engine type across the Atlantic. This is a severely limiting factor for Cork compared to Shannon's runway which is 1,300m longer.

marno21

orangerhyme wrote: »

I've already listed the areas on which the money would be better spent.
I've also quoted the TII saying therees not capital investment available for the NRR when it's clearly more important.
As regards the docklands development, it could be done better and faster with more money.

TII made that claim about the NRR when there was no money for the M20. The article is out of date now.

snotboogie

orangerhyme wrote: »

snotboogie wrote: »

There is a billion of public money being spent in the docklands over the next few years: 
€1bn Cork docklands project to move forward in 2018
There is also millions of euro of private invest pouring in there for office and hotel developments:
Work to begin on Cork's largest office development this summer
A new €160 million development at Horgan's Quay will be home to 5,000 employees, more than 200 apartments and a 136-bed hotel
City Hall begins talks with skyscraper developers
Considering there is huge investment already going into the docklands, with feasibility studies on light rail and public transport and the NRR will have to be built at some stage if the M20 is completed, where do you think that the money should be spent?

I've already listed the areas on which the money would be better spent.
I've also quoted the TII saying therees not capital investment available for the NRR when it's clearly more important.
As regards the docklands development, it could be done better and faster with more money.

How exactly?

hans aus dtschl

orangerhyme wrote: »

For example, if you were working for the IDA giving a presentation to a UK or American company to persuade them to set up in Cork, how much emphasis would you give to the road to Limerick, how many questions would they ask about the road to Limerick??

The major talking points would be: skilled workers, offices, facilities, tax, telecommunications, housing etc...

Good question.
Multinational customers ask me how long it will take me to get to them: "How soon can you get to site".
Access to skilled contractors is absolutely critical for these companies. They MAKE things: physical products. The big industries in Cork/Limerick/Galway are NOT typically service oriented. Every minute extra on the journey to site potentially costs my customer money.

So yes, when giving a presentation to multinationals, we do emphasize how comfortable we are with being away from our families in order to support them, since we can't get there by commute. All our competitors do too.

Some multinationals struggle to get skilled staff, because the only people that can get to their site are either based locally or based in Dublin. They have to either relocate their staff or pay Dublin wages. Those skilled staff don't always want to relocate to Galway/Limerick/Cork, particularly if they have a horrendous commute to their interview and immediately view the site location as "far far away". So then it's catch-22: they can't get staff or contractors easily.

I'm glad you brought this up, it's great to be able to show how important interurban connectivity is, in very simple real-world terms.

orangerhyme

snotboogie wrote: »

How exactly?

There's a direct positive correlation between investment and speed and quality of a development project. That's surely obvious.

The M17/18 cost half a billion. If that had been spent on developing the Cork docklands into a SDZ, would there be companies setting up there right now? Probably

orangerhyme

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Good question.
Multinational customers ask me how long it will take me to get to them: "How soon can you get to site".
Access to skilled contractors is absolutely critical for these companies. They MAKE things: physical products. The big industries in Cork/Limerick/Galway are NOT typically service oriented. Every minute extra on the journey to site potentially costs my customer money.

So yes, when giving a presentation to multinationals, we do emphasize how comfortable we are with being away from our families in order to support them, since we can't get there by commute. All our competitors do too.

Some multinationals struggle to get skilled staff, because the only people that can get to their site are either based locally or based in Dublin. They have to either relocate their staff or pay Dublin wages. Those skilled staff don't always want to relocate to Galway/Limerick/Cork, particularly if they have a horrendous commute to their interview and immediately view the site location as "far far away". So then it's catch-22: they can't get staff or contractors easily.

I'm glad you brought this up, it's great to be able to show how important interurban connectivity is, in very simple real-world terms.

So invest in educating/skilling people who live in these urban areas. Or invest in the cities themselves to make them desirable to live there and also attract EU workers.
That's surely more sustainable development.

snotboogie

orangerhyme wrote: »

snotboogie wrote: »

How exactly?

There's a direct positive correlation between investment and speed and quality of a development project. That's surely obvious.

The M17/18 cost half a billion. If that had been spent on developing the Cork docklands into a SDZ, would there be companies setting up there right now? Probably

No I get that but there is a billion of public money and over half a billion of private money going into the Cork docklands. Over a thousand workers moved into One Albert Quay in the Docklands last year, another office site, Navigation Square, is under construction and will house 3,000 employees, Horgan's Quay is up for planning next week and will hold 5,000 employees. The government is looking at BRT, light rail, bridges (including the eastern Gateway Bridge), land zoning, roads.... What more do you think could be done with this extra half a Billion?

blanch152

Calina wrote: »

I would like orangerhyme to let me know how many people he or she is happy to allow to die on the current N20. Whether they have spent much time trying to get through Charleville on a Friday afternoon. But mostly...

How many lives is it worth to leave things the way they are?

If we banned all motorised transport, we would save more lives than building the M20.

If we had a choice between spending €500m on the M20 or €500m for new equipment in hospitals, a better helicopter ambulance service and more paramedics, which option would save more lives?

When you bring saving lives into a financial equation it gets complicated.

orangerhyme

snotboogie wrote: »

No I get that but there is a billion of public money and over half a billion of private money going into the Cork docklands. Over a thousand workers moved into One Albert Quay in the Docklands last year, another office site, Navigation Square, is under construction and will house 3,000 employees, Horgan's Quay is up for planning next week and will hold 5,000 employees. The government is looking at BRT, light rail, bridges (including the eastern Gateway Bridge), land zoning, roads.... What more do you think could be done with this extra half a Billion?

The northern ring road for starters.
Upgrade and improvement of roads into city which are at choking point.
Incentivise high density housing in city center and docklands to reduce further sprawl and commuter belt.
Bridge from Tivoli to Docklands.
Develop area from Pairc Ui Caoimh towards city into SDZ with support infrastructure such as roads, telecommunications etc.

I don't know Limerick well but I assume they need similar investment. You haven't mentioned Limerick at all.
Would the average Limerick person prioritise a road to Cork as opposed to investment in their people and city??
For such a small city, Limerick has great potential.

orangerhyme

blanch152 wrote: »

If we banned all motorised transport, we would save more lives than building the M20.

If we had a choice between spending €500m on the M20 or €500m for new equipment in hospitals, a better helicopter ambulance service and more paramedics, which option would save more lives?

When you bring saving lives into a financial equation it gets complicated.

Thank you.
It's impossible to answer that question, it's emotionally manipulative.
Deaths on roads are always tragic and shocking as they're so sudden and often involve young people etc.

hans aus dtschl

orangerhyme wrote: »

So invest in educating/skilling people who live in these urban areas. Or invest in the cities themselves to make them desirable to live there and also attract EU workers.
That's surely more sustainable development.

Exactly the philosophy behind brexit: if you create a skills demand you facilitate the upskilling of locals.
Skills of contractors are extremely specific and take many years to learn. We ARE training staff in the urban areas but it's a demand-supply circle, if we churn out too many skilled staff, there will be no demand for them and joblessness will ensue.

Look, you obviously don't understand the nature of these multinational companies, the nature of their suppliers or skilled contractors. That's OK. But it makes understanding why manufacturing multinationals need strong infrastructure links much more difficult.