M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

osarusan

orangerhyme wrote: »

So invest in educating/skilling people who live in these urban areas. Or invest in the cities themselves to make them desirable to live there and also attract EU workers.
That's surely more sustainable development.

This is the point at which I realised that you are not really listening, and just want to repeat the same point over and over again.

snotboogie

orangerhyme wrote: »

snotboogie wrote: »

No I get that but there is a billion of public money and over half a billion of private money going into the Cork docklands. Over a thousand workers moved into One Albert Quay in the Docklands last year, another office site, Navigation Square, is under construction and will house 3,000 employees, Horgan's Quay is up for planning next week and will hold 5,000 employees. The government is looking at BRT, light rail, bridges (including the eastern Gateway Bridge), land zoning, roads.... What more do you think could be done with this extra half a Billion?

The northern ring road for starters.
Upgrade and improvement of roads into city which are at choking point.
Incentivise high density housing in city center and docklands to reduce further sprawl and commuter belt.
Bridge from Tivoli to Docklands.
Develop area from Pairc Ui Caoimh towards city into SDZ with support infrastructure such as roads, telecommunications etc.

I don't know Limerick well but I assume they need similar investment.

The NRR has a much better chance of being completed if the M20 is built, it's not an either or.
Incentiving high density doesn't cost a billion euro. It's up to planning.
As I mentioned the Eastern Gateway Bridge is a part of the Docklands proposal.
The docklands are seeing development right now, if things keep going as they are now it will stretch down to PUC. Again this has little to do with the M20.

hans aus dtschl

osarusan wrote: »

This is the point at which I realised that you are not really listening, and just want to repeat the same point over and over again.

Exactly: this is simple ignorance of facts, either willful or otherwise.

I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt in not actually understanding what the economy of the Galway/Limerick/Cork areas is based on.

orangerhyme

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Exactly the philosophy behind brexit: if you create a skills demand you facilitate the upskilling of locals.
Skills of contractors are extremely specific and take many years to learn. We ARE training staff in the urban areas but it's a demand-supply circle, if we churn out too many skilled staff, there will be no demand for them and joblessness will ensue.

Look, you obviously don't understand the nature of these multinational companies, the nature of their suppliers or skilled contractors. That's OK. But it makes understanding why manufacturing multinationals need strong infrastructure links much more difficult.

https://www.esri.ie/person/?userid=113

Edgar Morgenroth is of the same opinion. He's been researching these topics for decades and is considered an expert in this field.

orangerhyme

orangerhyme wrote: »

https://www.esri.ie/person/?userid=113

Edgar Morgenroth is of the same opinion. He's been researching these topics for decades and is considered an expert in this field.

I'm giving more weight to an expert opinion as opposed to a poster on a forum, yeah I'm ignorant.

Shn99

orangerhyme wrote: »

The northern ring road for starters.
Upgrade and improvement of roads into city which are at choking point.
Incentivise high density housing in city center and docklands to reduce further sprawl and commuter belt.
Bridge from Tivoli to Docklands.
Develop area from Pairc Ui Caoimh towards city into SDZ with support infrastructure such as roads, telecommunications etc.

I don't know Limerick well but I assume they need similar investment. You haven't mentioned Limerick at all.
Would the average Limerick person prioritise a road to Cork as opposed to investment in their people and city??
For such a small city, Limerick has great potential.

Huge plans with the Limerick 2030 project. The Opera site development 3,000+ jobs and the International Gardens development 1000+ jobs are just a few things. Limerick has also been ranked high in the European cities of the future https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/296651/the-future-is-very-bright-limerick-ranks-high-in-european-cities-of-the-future-awards.html

hans aus dtschl

orangerhyme wrote: »

https://www.esri.ie/person/?userid=113

Edgar Morgenroth is of the same opinion. He's been researching these topics for decades and is considered an expert in this field.

You're speaking to people here who work for and with the multinationals in the Cork/Limerick/Galway areas.... who are giving first-hand accounts of what's directly hampering our businesses and customers from growing, and you're citing a professor of economics credentials?

Water John

Its why I posed the question here last night, dual carriageway with town bypasses or motorway? The status quo isn't an option. Did the learned gentleman deal with that?

Neither Cork or Limerick, on their own have the critical mass to counter Dublin.
But together they do. You have also the synergy of workers, in the same field/discipline interacting because of the good link.
Horror of horrors, a professional could locate around Mallow or Charleville and choose to work in Limerick or Cork. He could move jobs, without having to relocate. BTW he will be driving an EV powered by renewable energy, so don't worry about the environment.

Anyway, we'll have our answer tomorrow.

blanch152

orangerhyme wrote: »

Thank you.
It's impossible to answer that question, it's emotionally manipulative.
Deaths on roads are always tragic and shocking as they're so sudden and often involve young people etc.

Yes, deaths on roads are always tragic and shocking, but does that mean public policy should be driven by what is tragic and shocking?

If the objective is to save lives, then the money would definitely be spent better elsewhere.

If the objective is to provide for a better private transport link between Limerick and Cork, then the money should be spent on the M20.

To me, given the above, saving lives is not an argument for the M20.

marno21

orangerhyme wrote: »

https://www.esri.ie/person/?userid=113

Edgar Morgenroth is of the same opinion. He's been researching these topics for decades and is considered an expert in this field.

He's right to say that the city centres need more investment.

But there's no need to take money from the M20 for this. We are not poor.

Robbing Peter to pay Paul is not the solution here.

orangerhyme

marno21 wrote: »

He's right to say that the city centres need more investment.

But there's no need to take money from the M20 for this. We are not poor.

Robbing Peter to pay Paul is not the solution here.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/national-debt-now-44000-per-head-35904197.html

Our debt per capita is second highest in the world. We are poor.

hans aus dtschl

marno21 wrote: »

He's right to say that the city centres need more investment.

But there's no need to take money from the M20 for this. We are not poor.

Robbing Peter to pay Paul is not the solution here.

I think we've done all the arguments and routes to death now surely.

We can at least thank Professor Morgenroth and his online advocate here orangerhyme for potentially solidifying the case for the M20, by playing devil's advocate at the very least.
Dissent and counter-argument are ultimately good things for infrastructure expenditure. Quite a shame all big public infrastructure expenditure doesn't get this high level of scrutiny.

orangerhyme

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

You're speaking to people here who work for and with the multinationals in the Cork/Limerick/Galway areas.... who are giving first-hand accounts of what's directly hampering our businesses and customers from growing, and you're citing a professor of economics credentials?

Economists see the bigger picture in the medium to long term.
First hand accounts have a natural bias and narrow focus.

Shn99

blanch152 wrote: »

Yes, deaths on roads are always tragic and shocking, but does that mean public policy should be driven by what is tragic and shocking?

If the objective is to save lives, then the money would definitely be spent better elsewhere.

If the objective is to provide for a better private transport link between Limerick and Cork, then the money should be spent on the M20.

To me, given the above, saving lives is not an argument for the M20.

The whole notion of build it and they will come is nonsense esp when it comes to road/rail. Take a look at the M17/18 or the WRC

snotboogie

orangerhyme wrote: »

marno21 wrote: »

He's right to say that the city centres need more investment.

But there's no need to take money from the M20 for this. We are not poor.

Robbing Peter to pay Paul is not the solution here.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/national-debt-now-44000-per-head-35904197.html

Our debt per capita is second highest in the world. We are poor.

Second only to the impoverished third world nation of Japan

orangerhyme

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

I think we've done all the arguments and routes to death now surely.

We can at least thank Professor Morgenroth and his online advocate here orangerhyme for potentially solidifying the case for the M20, by playing devil's advocate at the very least.
Dissent and counter-argument are ultimately good things for infrastructure expenditure. Quite a shame all big public infrastructure expenditure doesn't get this high level of scrutiny.

The M20 will definitely happen soon so all my points are moot anyway.
I just like debating.
And like I said, being from Kerry, I see any development in Limerick and Cork as exciting.
Young people in Kerry have been leaving in droves for decades and south Kerry in particular is suffering from severe depopulation, so it's better if they gravitate to Cork/Limerick at least than further afield.

Water John

The reason we are debating it now is, because it wasn't built years ago, either dual or motorway, as it should have been, as it didn't have political priority. In fact, a political headwind.

hans aus dtschl

orangerhyme wrote: »

Economists see the bigger picture in the medium to long term.
First hand accounts have a natural bias and narrow focus.

You ask a real-world question, but don't want the first hand account?

orangerhyme wrote: »

For example, if you were working for the IDA giving a presentation to a UK or American company to persuade them to set up in Cork, how much emphasis would you give to the road to Limerick, how many questions would they ask about the road to Limerick??

The major talking points would be: skilled workers, offices, facilities, tax, telecommunications, housing etc...

hans aus dtschl

orangerhyme wrote: »

The M20 will definitely happen soon so all my points are moot anyway.
I just like debating.

Yeah that's valuable too, as I say. Dissent is a good thing. I just don't know that your argument disproves the need for the M20.
Certainly we should invest heavily in the urban areas, no question, but the inter-urban needs to happen too. Particularly this one.

orangerhyme

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

You ask a real-world question, but don't want the first hand account?

Edgar Morgenroth said that as regards enticing FDI, motorways are way down the list.

https://www.live95fm.ie/on-air/shows/limerick-today/limerick-today-podcasts/february-2018/limerick-today-economist-has-his-say-on-comments/

It's well worth a listen, makes a lot of sense.

Cookiemunster

orangerhyme wrote: »

Edgar Morgenroth said that as regards enticing FDI, motorways are way down the list.

https://www.live95fm.ie/on-air/shows/limerick-today/limerick-today-podcasts/february-2018/limerick-today-economist-has-his-say-on-comments/

It's well worth a listen, makes a lot of sense.

I'd just like to point out that just because he's an economist, it doesn't mean he's correct. I'm sure if I searched I could find an economist that has different views to Dr. Morgenroth.

Water John

Well you know the joke, you put three economists in a room and you get four opinions.
Where are all those economists, who told us, we'd have a soft landing in 2008?

Reputable Rog

orangerhyme wrote: »

Edgar Morgenroth said that as regards enticing FDI, motorways are way down the list.

https://www.live95fm.ie/on-air/shows/limerick-today/limerick-today-podcasts/february-2018/limerick-today-economist-has-his-say-on-comments/

It's well worth a listen, makes a lot of sense.

As someone who has had dealings with companies involved in FDI, Motorways are very much around the top of the list.
Take the M28 project for instance, many companies in Ringaskiddy say that without the new motorway Ringaskiddy will become uncompetitive and that the continued absence of the motorway into the future could jeopardise future investment in their Ringaskiddy plants.

orangerhyme

Reputable Rog wrote: »

As someone who has had dealings with companies involved in FDI, Motorways are very much around the top of the list.
Take the M28 project for instance, many companies in Ringaskiddy say that without the new motorway Ringaskiddy will become uncompetitive and that the continued absence of the motorway into the future could jeopardise future investment in their Ringaskiddy plants.

Ok but that's a motorway within the Cork city area, not one to a city 100km away.
My argument is that a northern Ring road, which could possibly be a motorway, would be more beneficial to Cork

Water John

All a northern ring road will do, is get everyone on the road to Dublin.

Reputable Rog

orangerhyme wrote: »

Ok but that's a motorway within the Cork city area, not one to a city 100km away.
My argument is that a northern Ring road, which could possibly be a motorway, would be more beneficial to Cork

Well a lot of stuff produced in Ringaskiddy is exported by air from [Insert Name] and therefore they have a keen interest in seeing the connections from Ringaskiddy and Cork onwards being developed properly.

snotboogie

Water John wrote: »

All a northern ring road will do, is get everyone on the road to Dublin.

The ideal is a full ring road incorporating the N40 (soon to be M40) and NRR, then you could have the M8 to Dublin, the M25 to Waterford, the M28 to Ringaskiddy, the M71 to West Cork, the M22 to Killarney and the M20 to Limerick all feeding off the ring road. This would set Cork up as a genuine counterbalance in terms of connectivity. I see the M20 as a vital step on the road to this goal.

AugustusMinimus

The NRR will never get built if the M20 doesn’t.

orangerhyme

Water John wrote: »

All a northern ring road will do, is get everyone on the road to Dublin.

Ah come on, look at a map. It'll create 360 loop around the city.
Cork has a huge commuter belt which causes congestion.
The N20 is just one road but the northern Ring connects all the roads

orangerhyme

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

The NRR will never get built if the M20 doesn’t.

Someone has said before the M20 needs to be built before the NRR but I don't see why.
The NRR would be used by much more people