M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

snotboogie

orangerhyme wrote: »

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

The NRR will never get built if the M20 doesn’t.

Someone has said before the M20 needs to be built before the NRR but I don't see why.
The NRR would be used by much more people

Very little political will behind the NRR, much less than the M20. If the M20 is built it will put huge pressure on the Cork road network to the point it will necessitate a NRR. I really don't think it's an either or between the two, it seems more like M20 + possibly NRR or nothing.

orangerhyme

snotboogie wrote: »

Very little political will behind the NRR, much less than the M20. If the M20 is built it will put huge pressure on the Cork road network to the point it will necessitate a NRR. I really don't think it's an either or between the two, it seems more like M20 + possibly NRR or nothing.

Ah ok, thanks for explaining that.
I honestly the NRR is the most needed Rd in Ireland right now, along with the Galway Ring road.
Instead we'll have 200km of unused motorway between them. It just doesn't make sense

Cookiemunster

orangerhyme wrote: »

Ah ok, thanks for explaining that.
I honestly the NRR is the most needed Rd in Ireland right now, along with the Galway Ring road.
Instead we'll have 200km of unused motorway between them. It just doesn't make sense

The AADT may not be as high as some areas around Cork, but the M20 would be a long way from unused. The N18/M18 between Limerick and Ennis is also far from unused.

orangerhyme

Cookiemunster wrote: »

The AADT may not be as high as some areas around Cork, but the M20 would be a long way from unused. The N18/M18 between Limerick and Ennis is also far from unused.

It would be busy out as far as Mallow, then a big dropoff

Cookiemunster

orangerhyme wrote: »

It would be busy out as far as Mallow, then a big dropoff

And from Mallow on is some of the worst national road in the county that needs to be replaced for safety reasons of nothing else. The AADTs justify building a DC the rest of the way to Limerick bypassing Mallow, Buttevant and Charleville and once you're doing that you might as well classify it as a motorway.

fonzy951

marno21 wrote: »

Cork Airport's runway at present is limited in that it can't take most forms of aircraft transatlantic. At present it can only take a 737 MAX or a 757 with one engine type across the Atlantic. This is a severely limiting factor for Cork compared to Shannon's runway which is 1,300m longer.

Cork actually doesn't really need a runway extension, it can handle the 737-MAX and A321NEO-LR which are the future of TATL travel for smaller airports such as Cork and Shannon. The fuel savings are huge on these new aircraft, the 757's are being completely phased out. Any larger aircraft really just aren't viable from smaller airports.
Cork airport is very well served for FDI with its regular daily connections to main hubs (Heathrow, CDG, Schiphol) which is required for MN global business and not just a couple of destinations to the US.

marno21

fonzy951 wrote: »

Cork actually doesn't really need a runway extension, it can handle the 737-MAX and A321NEO-LR which are the future of TATL travel for smaller airports such as Cork and Shannon. The fuel savings are huge on these new aircraft, the 757's are being completely phased out. Any larger aircraft really just aren't viable from smaller airports.
Cork airport is very well served for FDI with its regular daily connections to main hubs (Heathrow, CDG, Schiphol) which is required for MN global business and not just a couple of destinations to the US.

I should've included a line about the A321LR. I was saying about why Shannon has always had transatlantic services instead of Cork, simply because Cork can't take the 757/767/330s being used for services at the minute.

The A321LR and indeed the 737 MAX are gamechangers

marno21

orangerhyme wrote: »

It would be busy out as far as Mallow, then a big dropoff

There would be an large volume increase on the M20 in its entirety were it built. A massive volume of people currently avoid the N20 where possible becaUse of the state of it

JCX BXC

marno21 wrote: »

I should've included a line about the A321LR. I was saying about why Shannon has always had transatlantic services instead of Cork, simply because Cork can't take the 757/767/330s being used for services at the minute.

The A321LR and indeed the 737 MAX are gamechangers

Cork could always handle the 757 to my understanding, no issues with that aircraft. Lack of market is a bigger reason.

marno21

JCX BXC wrote: »

Cork could always handle the 757 to my understanding, no issues with that aircraft. Lack of market is a bigger reason.

Cork could handle one of the 757 types and just about. Aer Lingus have one of the 757 type compatible from Cork (EI-CJX). The three ex Finnair are different engine configuration.

If you see what Shannon can sustain it's hard to believe there is no market from Cork. Especially with the growth in Cork down the line

snotboogie

marno21 wrote: »

fonzy951 wrote: »

Cork actually doesn't really need a runway extension, it can handle the 737-MAX and A321NEO-LR which are the future of TATL travel for smaller airports such as Cork and Shannon. The fuel savings are huge on these new aircraft, the 757's are being completely phased out. Any larger aircraft really just aren't viable from smaller airports.
Cork airport is very well served for FDI with its regular daily connections to main hubs (Heathrow, CDG, Schiphol) which is required for MN global business and not just a couple of destinations to the US.

I should've included a line about the A321LR. I was saying about why Shannon has always had transatlantic services instead of Cork, simply because Cork can't take the 757/767/330s being used for services at the minute.

The A321LR and indeed the 737 MAX are gamechangers

Potential game changers but Cork could very easily be left with no transatlantic in five years time. The delay on the New York flights from Norwegian is not good and they continue to struggle with their overall finances. Cork airport made no secret about their desire to get AirCanada Rouge but lost out to Shannon last year. Aerlingus will focus their A321LR on Dublin and as of now are making more noises about Shannon than Cork, even though they haven't dismissed it. The American airlines are pulling back from the smaller airports and are not going to come into Cork.
I have no doubt that Cork Airport are planning with the M20 in mind, even last month they were making fairly aggressive statement about chasing further transatlantic, but I could easily see Cork as a short haul and Shannon as a long haul hub.

JCX BXC

marno21 wrote: »

If you see what Shannon can sustain it's hard to believe there is no market from Cork. Especially with the growth in Cork down the line

Because you're just looking at simplistic statistics, you refuse to venture into points such as tourism, a market built up over several decades, cultural links and having a massive industrial estate with several aviation related businesses right on the airports footstep. The market for the US (and US only seemingly) will naturally be much stronger. We've debated this before and you've ignored all these points, so I'm not particularly interested in reopening it.

I've also heard that the 757 would perform better from Corks runway than the 737 NG, so hence would have always been more sustainable than the 737 NG that Norwegian responded with.

snotboogie

JCX BXC wrote: »

marno21 wrote: »

If you see what Shannon can sustain it's hard to believe there is no market from Cork. Especially with the growth in Cork down the line

Because you're just looking at simplistic statistics, you refuse to venture into points such as tourism, a market built up over several decades, cultural links and having a massive industrial estate with several aviation related businesses right on the airports footstep. The market for the US (and US only seemingly) will naturally be much stronger. We've debated this before and you've ignored all these points, so I'm not particularly interested in reopening it.

I've also heard that the 757 would perform better from Corks runway than the 737 NG, so hence would have always been more sustainable than the 737 NG that Norwegian responded with.

As I have showed you many times, North American tourists travel in far greater numbers and spend far more money in Cork than they do in Limerick or Shannon, American FDI is several factors larger in Cork than it is in Limerick and Shannon combined. There is an osmosis given the historical air links and an advantage with the runway though

JCX BXC

snotboogie wrote: »

As I have showed you many times, North American tourists travel in far greater numbers and spend far more money in Cork than they do in Limerick or Shannon, American FDI is several factors larger in Cork than it is in Limerick and Shannon combined. There is an osmosis given the historical air links and an advantage with the runway though

Because Limerick and Shannon aren't tourist regions! You've Clare, Galway and Mayo which are all accessible easily from Shannon and not so easily from Cork, and then you've Kerry which take alot of the US passengers (however Cork also supplies Kerry, just not when the Red-C poll was carried out).

When you're looking at numbers, you've to look at all the numbers.

snotboogie

JCX BXC wrote: »

snotboogie wrote: »

As I have showed you many times, North American tourists travel in far greater numbers and spend far more money in Cork than they do in Limerick or Shannon, American FDI is several factors larger in Cork than it is in Limerick and Shannon combined. There is an osmosis given the historical air links and an advantage with the runway though

Because Limerick and Shannon aren't tourist regions! You've Clare, Galway and Mayo which are all accessible easily from Shannon and not so easily from Cork, and then you've Kerry which take alot of the US passengers (however Cork also supplies Kerry, just not when the Red-C poll was carried out).

When you're looking at numbers, you've to look at all the numbers.

Cork and Kerry have the second highest share of nights stayed by American tourists after Dublin, at 22%. Clare/Limerick only have 10%. You have to include all of Connacht with the Limerick/Clare numbers to get up to the South West numbers.

JCX BXC

Why include Cork with Kerry, when alot of Kerry is far from Cork and closer to Shannon? Again, playing with numbers.

snotboogie

JCX BXC wrote: »

Why include Cork with Kerry, when alot of Kerry is far from Cork and closer to Shannon? Again, playing with numbers.

I'm not playing with numbers, those are the ones available, Failte Ireland breaks down Ireland into the South West, Mid West and West. You have to go back to 2015 to get specific county data, which only breaks down by visitors, rather than nights stayed. As far as I know there is nothing available breaking down Kerry by town. Killarney is regarded as the most popular and is far more convenient from Cork. If you have stats that show otherwise, fire away.

JCX BXC

snotboogie wrote: »

I'm not playing with numbers, those are the ones available, Failte Ireland breaks down Ireland into the South West, Mid West and West. You have to go back to 2015 to get specific county data, which only breaks down by visitors, rather than nights stayed. As far as I know there is nothing available breaking down Kerry by town. Killarney is regarded as the most popular and is far more convenient from Cork. If you have stats that show otherwise, fire away.

Yes but there's no point in grouping both Cork and Kerry together, when most of Kerry is very accessible from Shannon, with only minor differences between Cork and Shannon!

snotboogie

JCX BXC wrote: »

snotboogie wrote: »

I'm not playing with numbers, those are the ones available, Failte Ireland breaks down Ireland into the South West, Mid West and West. You have to go back to 2015 to get specific county data, which only breaks down by visitors, rather than nights stayed. As far as I know there is nothing available breaking down Kerry by town. Killarney is regarded as the most popular and is far more convenient from Cork. If you have stats that show otherwise, fire away.

Yes but there's no point in grouping both Cork and Kerry together, when most of Kerry is very accessible from Shannon, with only minor differences between Cork and Shannon!

Killarney is much closer to Cork than Shannon (89km vs 135km) and is the most recognized tourist hub in the county. I don't see any issue with the way Failte Ireland choose to present the stats...

Leonard Hofstadter

marno21 wrote: »

There would be an large volume increase on the M20 in its entirety were it built. A massive volume of people currently avoid the N20 where possible becaUse of the state of it

Indeed they do, depending on the time of day I use the M8 and R513 when going to Limerick from Cork despite the fact it's about 7 miles longer to avoid the N20 and travel via Mitchelstown. You can be sure I'd never go that way if the M20 existed, so building the M20 would help take pressure off the JLT and N40 as well.

Shn99

JCX BXC wrote: »

Why include Cork with Kerry, when alot of Kerry is far from Cork and closer to Shannon? Again, playing with numbers.

Because corks the “biggest and best”😉

marno21

Shn99 wrote: »

The whole notion of build it and they will come is nonsense esp when it comes to road/rail. Take a look at the M17/18 or the WRC

The only people who thought the Western Rail Corridor would succeed were West on Track. The fact that it got built was indicative of how wasteful the country was at the time.

Reputable Rog

marno21 wrote: »

The only people who thought the Western Rail Corridor would succeed were West on Track. The fact that it got built was indicative of how wasteful the country was at the time.

Well it could work with good timetabling and a decent track speed, the state of the rolling stock doesn't help either.
Galway Station is the best located in the country and should be more of a transport hub, but that's for another thread.

Isambard

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Well it could work with good timetabling and a decent track speed, the state of the rolling stock doesn't help either.
Galway Station is the best located in the country and should be more of a transport hub, but that's for another thread.

what's wrong with the rolling stock?

markodaly

orangerhyme wrote: »

The northern ring road for starters.
.

This is hilarious.

The economist from DCU was objecting to the M20 because it would invite sprawl. You seem to take his word as gospel and then you go ahead and want the NRR to be done before the M20.

You do know that the NRR would invite much more sprawl and hollow out the city core much more than the M20? You do know that right?

So why are you advocating the NRR before the M20?

markodaly

orangerhyme wrote: »

Ah ok, thanks for explaining that.
I honestly the NRR is the most needed Rd in Ireland right now, along with the Galway Ring road.
Instead we'll have 200km of unused motorway between them. It just doesn't make sense

Now I know you are just spoofing.

This taken from Skyscrapper City.

Traffic count data M18 and M17 roads.

A couple of years ago the An Taisce propoganda machine was in full flow. I refer to James Nix and that Frank McDonald in the times.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/envi...rway-1.1903132

By 2030, the average annual daily traffic flow is predicted to be 10,155 vehicles on the southern section and 9,451 on the northern section – even though the design capacity of a four-lane motorway is 40,000 to 50,000 vehicles a day
Now the southern and northern sections each have 2 traffic counters and here is the data from the M17 (North at Corofin) M17 (South near Athenry) M18 (North nearl Kilcolgan) and M18 (South of Ardrahan and north of Gort) along with the old M18 South of Gort Counter)

M17 (North) AADT 8000
M17 (South) AADT 9000
M18 (North) AADT 9500
M18 (South) AADT 10,500
M18 (Existing since 2010) 11000 ( no major change there)

In other words the M18, south of Ardrahan, was already carrying more traffic in 2017 than An Taisce and Frank said it would by 2030. Thank God nobody with any sense listens to those two muppets.

The projected traffic levels would put the Gort-Tuam route well behind the State’s worst-performing motorways – the M9 to Waterford and the M3 through Co Meath – both of which carry 20,000 vehicles per day, according to the NRA.
Both the M17 and M18 are already ahead of the 'worst performing' motorway' which is neither of the above as it happens. The lowest volumes are on the existing M11 in Wexford same it was before the M17 and M18 opened.

The worst performing segment of the M17 and M18 is the segment north of the N63 which is certainly no worse than the M11 south of Arklow, a neck ahead I would say. All An Taisce ever wants to do is kill people on unsafe roads

markodaly

snotboogie wrote: »

Potential game changers but Cork could very easily be left with no transatlantic in five years time. The delay on the New York flights from Norwegian is not good and they continue to struggle with their overall finances. Cork airport made no secret about their desire to get AirCanada Rouge but lost out to Shannon last year. Aerlingus will focus their A321LR on Dublin and as of now are making more noises about Shannon than Cork, even though they haven't dismissed it. The American airlines are pulling back from the smaller airports and are not going to come into Cork.
I have no doubt that Cork Airport are planning with the M20 in mind, even last month they were making fairly aggressive statement about chasing further transatlantic, but I could easily see Cork as a short haul and Shannon as a long haul hub.

It would be an interesting concept where the two airports could form some kind of partnership, one focusing on long range (Middle East maybe?) and transatlantic flights, while the other could focus on European hubs and the smaller cities.

An express bus from Cork airport to Shannon with the M20 would be an easy 1h 15m.

If Ryanair say airports like Beauvais is in Paris, then surely we could introduce the concept of dual airport partnership like that. The thing with the M20, it will throw up many possibilities.

marno21

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Well it could work with good timetabling and a decent track speed, the state of the rolling stock doesn't help either.
Galway Station is the best located in the country and should be more of a transport hub, but that's for another thread.

There is a reasonably good timetable given the passenger numbers. More trains would just mean more losses. The fares are extremely subsidised at present giving an impression that the passenger numbers are improving.

The track speed is the number 1 issue and makes it uncompetitive with M18 bus services. Stopping at ghost stations doesn't help the running times either.

The point about Galway station is correct but most people in Galway work nowhere near Galway station and there is no Parkmore station. It would be extremely popular if the rail line ran via Parkmore.

markodaly wrote: »

Now I know you are just spoofing.

This taken from Skyscrapper City.

The M17/M18 is a poor return for money so far given what was invested in it. The old N17 and N18 are still extremely congested and the journey times from Tuam to Galway via the M17 are quite poor.

markodaly

marno21 wrote: »

The M17/M18 is a poor return for money so far given what was invested in it. The old N17 and N18 are still extremely congested and the journey times from Tuam to Galway via the M17 are quite poor.

Yes, I would somewhat agree with you but then this road is there for the next 50-100 years.

It is also hamstrung by the fact that there is no M20 as of yet. The M21 would also help.

The route west of Galway was chosen because of the fear of more sprawl in Galway, was it not?

Anyway, the point I was making is that indeed this road is being used and has more traffic on it now than the NRA envisioned in 2030. We future proof infrastructure and yet people are not happy.

Shn99

marno21 wrote: »

There is a reasonably good timetable given the passenger numbers. More trains would just mean more losses. The fares are extremely subsidised at present giving an impression that the passenger numbers are improving.

The track speed is the number 1 issue and makes it uncompetitive with M18 bus services. Stopping at ghost stations doesn't help the running times either.

The point about Galway station is correct but most people in Galway work nowhere near Galway station and there is no Parkmore station. It would be extremely popular if the rail line ran via Parkmore..

Instead of WestOnTrack banging on about reopening the Galway to Colloney section of the WRC they should be campaigning for an improvement to the existing line. Closing stations like Ardrahan and Craughwell would be a start. Double track and increased speed too. Anyway back to the topic of the M20