M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

marno21

orangerhyme wrote: »

Ok I didn't know that, it was just an example.

Assuming the M9 to Waterford is a motorway, which was also an unemployment blackspot, was that the best use of the money?

The only full blown motorways built in Ireland were the M50, M1 Whitehall-Dundalk, M4 Leixlip-Kinnegad, M7 Naas-Portlaoise and M11 Bray bypass.

There were a number of very high quality dual carriageways constructed to similar standards including the N22 Ballincollig bypass, N25 East Cork Parkway, N20 to Blarney, M20 Limerick-Patrickswell, parts of the N18 out of Shannon, N3 near Clonee, N4 Mullingar bypass amongst others.

The M6 west of Kinnegad, M7/M8 west of Portlaoise and M9 south of Kilcullen were constructed as dual carriagway and later redesignated motorway.

road_high

orangerhyme wrote: »

Ok I didn't know that, it was just an example.

Assuming the M9 to Waterford is a motorway, which was also an unemployment blackspot, was that the best use of the money?

Sigh...why do clueless posters continually pick on the M9- it’s ADDTs are similar, same or greater than all the other MIUs. It’s been a huge success story, especially in the context of the old death trap N9 it bypasses.

blanch152

tweek84 wrote: »

Imagine how many lives would have been saved saved had the motorway from Limerick to Cork have been completed years ago?? Take it from someone who has travelled that road for years come across fatal accidents, major accidents, minor accidents that road is a accident black spot. You would be amazed at how many people commute between the two cities and there would be more still commuting, i know i would still be commuting to Cork for work if the motorway was complete but i sacrificed my job and the good money i was earning to ensure i was home every evening to see my family. I now work close to home but have taken a 20% pay cut on what i was earning

Seven people were killed on the N20 from the start of 2016 to end 2017.

Assume half of those were caused by poor driver behaviour rather than poor roads. That gives you a rate of 1.75 deaths per year, meaning 17.5 deaths over ten years.

It is going to cost €900m, a cost of around €50m per life saved.

Is that money well spent for saving lives?

marno21

blanch152 wrote: »

Seven people were killed on the N20 from the start of 2016 to end 2017.

Assume half of those were caused by poor driver behaviour rather than poor roads. That gives you a rate of 1.75 deaths per year, meaning 17.5 deaths over ten years.

It is going to cost €900m, a cost of around €50m per life saved.

Is that money well spent for saving lives?

1.75 per year caused by the road is very conservative given comparable fatality rates on the M6/7/8/9.

Don't forget that this isn't just about fatalities, it's also about other crashes that may have severe effects especially where there are serious injuries.

Also, factor in that crashes will only become more frequent if the road isn't upgraded due to the road becoming busier. There's also an element of crashes happening on other roads because they are being used as rat runs to avoid the N20

A 10 year period is also stupid. The benefits of an M20 will be realised long after 10 years.

blanch152

marno21 wrote: »

1.75 per year caused by the road is very conservative given comparable fatality rates on the M6/7/8/9.

Don't forget that this isn't just about fatalities, it's also about other crashes that may have severe effects especially where there are serious injuries.

Also, factor in that crashes will only become more frequent if the road isn't upgraded due to the road becoming busier. There's also an element of crashes happening on other roads because they are being used as rat runs to avoid the N20

A 10 year period is also stupid. The benefits of an M20 will be realised long after 10 years.

That still doesn't pass a cost/benefit analysis purely on road accidents.

Water John

Ah drop it. The road isn't functional. Not fit for purpose.
BTW decision is made. OK take lives saved, as a bonus, if that's how you value them.

AugustusMinimus

Extension of the M3 to Longford announced today. I’m seeing no criticism of it or anyone complaining it’s a waste of money. Mad stuff considering the constant criticism the M20 gets

Leonard Hofstadter

Water John wrote: »

Ah drop it. The road isn't functional. Not fit for purpose.
BTW decision is made. OK take lives saved, as a bonus, if that's how you value them.

It's all academic now.

Thank goodness common sense has prevailed, we're finally getting our motorway after so many years of promises and disappointment.

Not too long ago I reckoned I would be still on the old road when I was 40 (I'm 29 now) but there's a chance I might see the motorway become a realty by the time I'm 35 now!

Reputable Rog

marno21 wrote: »

Again, Limerick to Portlaoise was built as a DC instead of motorway, to reduce costs, and then had motorway restrictions applied to it to stop the councils fronting developments onto it.

The next time you drive from Dublin to Limerick take note of how different the road is between Naas and Portlaoise vs west of Portlaoise. There is a difference. Naas-Portlaoise was built as motorway and Portlaoise-Limerick was built as dual carriageway.

Correct and right. The distance between junctions is also too little to clasify them as proper Motorways. On some of the Motorways I've driven on abroad your screwed for often up to 20 miles if you miss your exit.

blanch152

Water John wrote: »

Ah drop it. The road isn't functional. Not fit for purpose.
BTW decision is made. OK take lives saved, as a bonus, if that's how you value them.

I have no problem with the M20 being justified on economic grounds, or because inter-connectivity between secondary cities requires a subsidy.

My only point was to challenge the very spurious claims that the M20 was required to save lives, That is just nonsense.

Calina

blanch152 wrote: »

tweek84 wrote: »

Imagine how many lives would have been saved saved had the motorway from Limerick to Cork have been completed years ago?? Take it from someone who has travelled that road for years come across fatal accidents, major accidents, minor accidents that road is a accident black spot. You would be amazed at how many people commute between the two cities and there would be more still commuting, i know i would still be commuting to Cork for work if the motorway was complete but i sacrificed my job and the good money i was earning to ensure i was home every evening to see my family. I now work close to home but have taken a 20% pay cut on what i was earning

Seven people were killed on the N20 from the start of 2016 to end 2017.

Assume half of those were caused by poor driver behaviour rather than poor roads. That gives you a rate of 1.75 deaths per year, meaning 17.5 deaths over ten years.

It is going to cost €900m, a cost of around €50m per life saved.

Is that money well spent for saving lives?

Per the RSA map of fatal accidents the N20 counted for 24 fatal accidents between 2005 and 2014. So already you have underestimated the number of fatalities concerned. Additionally, the economic impact of road accidents is not limited to lives lost - even comparatively minor accidents can have disproportionate cost impacts ny causing delays and traffic jams.

IMV the road can be justified on safety grounds. But it does not have to be so, in the same way that it doesn't have to be purely justified on economic grounds. The net benefits can be and will be multivariate.

marno21

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Extension of the M3 to Longford announced today. I’m seeing no criticism of it or anyone complaining it’s a waste of money. Mad stuff considering the constant criticism the M20 gets

€600m being spent on a Galway ring road with one of the main aims making life easier for people to commute by car from sprawl west of the Corrib to the business parks in the east

€1.5bn appprox being spent on seperate motorways to Letterkenny and Sligo from Dublin.

€300m worth of schemes being appraised to facilitate further commuting on the M3, M4 and M11

Not a word about either of these.

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Correct and right. The distance between junctions is also too little to clasify them as proper Motorways. On some of the Motorways I've driven on abroad your screwed for often up to 20 miles if you miss your exit.

Is a lot of this down to tolling? No junctions Loughrea-Ballinasloe on the M6, Borris-Portlaoise on the M7 etc.

blanch152 wrote: »

I have no problem with the M20 being justified on economic grounds, or because inter-connectivity between secondary cities requires a subsidy.

My only point was to challenge the very spurious claims that the M20 was required to save lives, That is just nonsense.

The safety element is only a part but a big part. The existing N20 is ridiculous for crashes given the length of its road. It's also getting busier leading to more accidents.

marno21

Discussion with Jerry Buttimer on the M20 from Cork Today this week:

https://soundcloud.com/cork103/corktoday-13-february-2018

20 minutes in.

Be interesting to see if he changes his tune in the event there is objectors to the scheme in the area for frivolous reasons.

Reputable Rog

orangerhyme wrote: »

They've announced a light rail from Ballincollig to Mahon, which sounds amazing.

They haven't, they announced a feasibility study. They have announced a Bus Connects plan with a north south, east west corridor.
There is essentially nothing new about this announcement.

snotboogie

Reputable Rog wrote: »

They haven't, they announced a feasibility study. They have announced a Bus Connects plan with a north south, east west corridor.
There is essentially nothing new about this announcement.

Do you have anymore details on that? I was looking at the Dublin one and only a fraction of their Bus Connects plan is actual BRT.

Also anyone know why was Limerick left out of Bus Connects?

spacetweek

snotboogie wrote: »

Do you have anymore details on that? I was looking at the Dublin one and only a fraction of their Bus Connects plan is actual BRT.

Also anyone know why was Limerick left out of Bus Connects?

Limerick was conspicuous by its absence.

Not a lot of detail on Bus Connects for any city but it seems that the previously agreed Swiftway (BRT) routes for Dublin will go ahead. This assumption is based on the fact that the spend for bus in Dublin will be 2 billion.

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Correct and right. The distance between junctions is also too little to clasify them as proper Motorways. On some of the Motorways I've driven on abroad your screwed for often up to 20 miles if you miss your exit.

They are proper motorways. There are no particular rules around junction spacing, except when they are extremely close like on the Athlone bypass which was one of the reasons it wasn't redeclared a motorway.

orangerhyme

Reputable Rog wrote: »

They haven't, they announced a feasibility study. They have announced a Bus Connects plan with a north south, east west corridor.
There is essentially nothing new about this announcement.

Ok fair enough, it'll come down to projected ridership etc.
I'm skeptical of the whole thing anyway.
The 115bn is based on projected tax revenue so we can assume half the projects won't happen.

It's great electioneering though, the Metro and M20 pass through about 10 constituencies alone.

If you add up all the other promises, it basically covers the whole of Ireland.

orangerhyme

marno21 wrote: »

€600m being spent on a Galway ring road with one of the main aims making life easier for people to commute by car from sprawl west of the Corrib to the business parks in the east

€1.5bn appprox being spent on seperate motorways to Letterkenny and Sligo from Dublin.

€300m worth of schemes being appraised to facilitate further commuting on the M3, M4 and M11

Not a word about either of these.



Is a lot of this down to tolling? No junctions Loughrea-Ballinasloe on the M6, Borris-Portlaoise on the M7 etc.



The safety element is only a part but a big part. The existing N20 is ridiculous for crashes given the length of its road. It's also getting busier leading to more accidents.

I'd make the same arguments about a motorway to Sligo/Leterkenny - the money would be far better spent in the actual towns to create jobs, motorways aren't a magic bullet.

AugustusMinimus

orangerhyme wrote: »

I'd make the same arguments about a motorway to Sligo/Leterkenny - the money would be far better spent in the actual towns to create jobs, motorways aren't a magic bullet.

There won’t be any motorway to Sligo / Letterkenny. Suspect 2+2 at the very max.

marno21

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

There won’t be any motorway to Sligo / Letterkenny. Suspect 2+2 at the very max.

I'd expect around 40km of motorway/Type 1 DC on the N4 Mullingar-Longford stretch. In fairness, it was me who used the word motorway above first, I forgot to correct that to "motorways and dual carriageways"

AugustusMinimus

marno21 wrote: »

I'd expect around 40km of motorway/Type 1 DC on the N4 Mullingar-Longford stretch. In fairness, it was me who used the word motorway above first, I forgot to correct that to "motorways and dual carriageways"

Indeed. After Longford. The N17 north of Tuam won’t be motorway either. The AADT isn’t there to support it.

alias no.9

blanch152 wrote: »

I have no problem with the M20 being justified on economic grounds, or because inter-connectivity between secondary cities requires a subsidy.

My only point was to challenge the very spurious claims that the M20 was required to save lives, That is just nonsense.

The lives being lost is one element of the current road not being fit for purpose not an economic argument, other elements of not fit for purpose include congestion in towns and villages and the fact that parts of the road are little more than barely paved cow paths, have you travelled the ballybeg bends? There are also a large number of domestic dwellings with entrances onto the current road.

Once you accept the current road is not fit for purpose, you can step onto how you make it fit for purpose, addressing each of the elements above.

A series of bypasses and realignments will undoubtedly help but you'll be having new alignments at every town. At a minimum, every junction between Cork and Mallow needs to be grade seperated for safety given the current traffic volumes. The Ballybeg Bends need a complete new alignment as part of whatever Buttevant bypass would be done. Charleville needs a bypass while the section from Charleville is littered with houses fronting onto the road which would necessitate a new alignment as you'd end up having to CPO a bit of every garden on the route to make any worthwhile upgrade and you'd still be left with all of the entrances onto a national primary route.

The reality is to bring the road to an adequate standard requires a new alignment on much of the road. Once you do that, do you leave a gap between the northern end of a proper Mallow bypass and the southern end of a Buttevant bypass, south of the Ballybeg Bends? Do you leave a gap between a Buttevant bypass and a Charleville bypass? Do you build a new alignment between Charleville and Croom as a single carriageway?

The economic argument is do it once and do it right.

Reputable Rog

snotboogie wrote: »

Do you have anymore details on that? I was looking at the Dublin one and only a fraction of their Bus Connects plan is actual BRT.

Also anyone know why was Limerick left out of Bus Connects?

Only the Mahon to Ballincollig route will be BRT, A QBC then from Ballyvolane to the Airport.

Limerick always gets left out. Time to start questioning the Limerick blueshirts.

trellheim

Folks can someone summarize where this is at - are they taking the plan from the last time or .... ( is it funded ? )

marno21

trellheim wrote: »

Folks can someone summarize where this is at - are they taking the plan from the last time or .... ( is it funded ? )

No, starting from scratch.

It has passed a feasibility study and will start route selection and initial design in 2018. It should be completed by 2027 at the latest

Water John

Will get to listen to Jerry Buttimer tomorrow. He is in fact from rural mid Cork, so that should be interesting.

Reputable Rog

Water John wrote: »

Will get to listen to Jerry Buttimer tomorrow. He is in fact from rural mid Cork, so that should be interesting.

I always thought he was from Glasheen.

Water John

One of the Boys of Kilmichael. Family is anyway, must check out the details.

AugustusMinimus

I’d say Buttimer will have a keen eye on house prices in the vicinity of the M20.

Reputable Rog

Water John wrote: »

One of the Boys of Kilmichael. Family is anyway, must check out the details.

That's a common name out there alright but I think he himself is from the city.