M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

marno21

Mod: can we keep the discussion motorway focused please rather than yet another Limerick/Shannon vs Cork debate

snotboogie

Shn99 wrote: »

Resurfacing the n20 isn’t going to stop the road accidents. The motorway needs to be built regardless imo. You’ve made it clear what your views are regarding the economic benefits of the motorway however here are some links which make your claims some what irrelevant. https://www.limerickpost.ie/2018/05/18/limerick-live-register-figures/

https://www.limerick.ie/business/news-events/news/limerick-and-mid-west-fastest-growing-region-fdi-outside-capital-ida

Actually in 2017 Limerick's FDI (proportionately) grew faster than Dublins. Keep in mind though, Limerick is starting from a very low base in comparison to the other cities:
https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2018-02-06a.705

Edit just saw mod post sorry!

zetalambda

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think both Cork and Limerick would benefit, but Limerick more so.

Agreed. Limerick stands to benefit most from the M20 but only because it's doing so bad at the moment. It could well end up becoming a commuter town of Cork.

JCX BXC

zetalambda wrote: »

Agreed. Limerick stands to benefit most from the M20 but only because it's doing so bad at the moment. It could well end up becoming a commuter town of Cork.

The worst part about this is you're not even being sarcastic. You genuinely believe in what you say!

marno21

zetalambda wrote: »

Agreed. Limerick stands to benefit most from the M20 but only because it's doing so bad at the moment. It could well end up becoming a commuter town of Cork.

I'd argue the other way around. With the M20 it'll be very viable to have a job in Limerick and be able to live comfortably in Cork.

alias no.9

marno21 wrote: »

N72 Mallow bypass will be a lesser standard and cheaper per km. It may include the NRR but I'd doubt it as I've never seen an official M40 + M20 bundle.

I understand but it may explain the number of km stated if they have included the total length of new roadway being constructed including all motor way and any additional link roads connecting it into the existing road network which would also include the N72 Mallow bypass.

The M40 has always been mentioned as a separate program, the cynic in me would see the two being bundled only in the circumstance that overall project would be soon after discovered to be too costly to fund.

marno21

alias no.9 wrote: »

I understand but it may explain the number of km stated if they have included the total length of new roadway being constructed including all motor way and any additional link roads connecting it into the existing road network which would also include the N72 Mallow bypass.

True that, I won't say anymore cos neither of us wrote it originally.

alias no.9 wrote: »

The M40 has always been mentioned as a separate program, the cynic in me would see the two being bundled only in the circumstance that overall project would be soon after discovered to be too costly to fund.

M40 has to go ahead otherwise it's a giant wind pissing exercise. With the Foynes & Ringaskiddy port expansions, greater access to both airports and general HGV volumes on the route a proper motorway link from the M20 to the M28 and indeed the existing M40 South Ring is a compulsory requirement.

neddynasty

marno21 wrote: »

neddynasty wrote: »

[font=Georgia, serif]"The €8m contract will see design engineers contracted to complete the route outline and bring the mammoth project to An Bord Pleanala."[/font]

[font=Georgia, serif]These kind of statements in articles about the M20 really piss me off. Calling it a mammoth project only creates negativity and resistance. It's a 105KM stretch of motorway of which there are 1000's KM of all over Europe!! It's not a 105KM underwater tunnel ffs.[/font]

It's the biggest motorway project ever advanced in the history of the state. At the minute we are getting mickey mouse projects advanced

It's also 80km, not 105km as indicated in the article.

If it's only 80KM then even more of a reason not to call it mammoth! :)
T2 in Dublin Airport cost close to a billion and I don't remember that being described as mammoth.

Sam Russell

neddynasty wrote: »

T2 in Dublin Airport cost close to a billion and I don't remember that being described as mammoth.

Did you hear Michael O'Leary on the T2 project?

abitofboth

zetalambda wrote: »

Agreed. Limerick stands to benefit most from the M20 but only because it's doing so bad at the moment. It could well end up becoming a commuter town of Cork.

Agree, the M20 will bleed the life (not that there's much of it) from Limerick. I bet the queues outside the Post Offices on a Thursday are a mile long. Anyway, lets get back on topic.

hans aus dtschl

If we're to discuss economic benefits of the M20 then...

Imports and Exports: Existing Cork, Mallow, Buttevant, Charleville, Kanturk, Banteer, Limerick manufacturers and producers will be able to reach Ports and Airports (either end) faster and more reliably meaning cheaper raw material imports and cheaper goods exports, faster to market and at higher quality (less spoil time). In every industry these are considered advantages.

Workforce: Greater access to employees from the university cities at either end, making it easier to gain high quality employees. Greater production efficiency and uptime, lower production cost and better market responsiveness result.

Skills: Greater access provided to skilled contractors and cheaper transit for them to site, again resulting in greater production efficiency and uptime, lower production cost and better market responsiveness.

There's actually a really simple example to prove just how much businesses like having access to motorways: just look at the locations of the existing big businesses - Dooradoyle, Little Island, North Point, Citywest, Grange Castle, Park West, Clondalkin, we could go on and on.

I'm not sure which businesses people expect will suffer as a result of better infrastructure, but I'd wager they're businesses which probably shouldn't exist right now. If they're only making money because people have no alternative, then they either need a little more competition or a little more taxation.

I'd welcome a reference to any white paper showing that infrastructure hinders an economy.

Cookiemunster

abitofboth wrote: »

Agree, the M20 will bleed the life (not that there's much of it) from Limerick. I bet the queues outside the Post Offices on a Thursday are a mile long. Anyway, lets get back on topic.

I hope you didn't put too much money on that bet. It's good to see pretty early that you're a troll though so I can now ignore you.

lucernarian

It seems as well that the M20 and N69 projects would mutually benefit each other to the overall gain of Co. Limerick and its industries.

Sam Russell

Mod: Can we stop the Cork vs Limerick stuff.



It should be obvious that both Cities will benefit and all places in between - but not all businesses though.

Isambard

the biggest gain will be easing the flow into and out of the cities, from their hinterlands.

lucernarian

Isambard wrote: »

the biggest gain will be easing the flow into and out of the cities, from their hinterlands.

I'd say that's the most unfortunate aspect of this - motorways are about getting people and goods around the country safely and quickly, and often relieving the poor communities nearby overwhelmed from passthrough traffic.

They shouldn't be about commuting, lots of studies have shown that if you build wider roads going near dormitory towns, you only encourage more traffic which just shows a bottleneck somewhere else. Especially when it's not hard to still build one off housing in the countryside.

Isambard

lucernarian wrote: »

I'd say that's the most unfortunate aspect of this - motorways are about getting people and goods around the country safely and quickly, and often relieving the poor communities nearby overwhelmed from passthrough traffic.

They shouldn't be about commuting, lots of studies have shown that if you build wider roads going near dormitory towns, you only encourage more traffic which just shows a bottleneck somewhere else. Especially when it's not hard to still build one off housing in the countryside.

where did I say commuting?

lucernarian

Isambard wrote: »

where did I say commuting?

You didn't. I guess it depends on what you define as "the flow from cities to their hinterlands" though.

Isambard

how does what I said differ from "motorways are about getting people and goods around the country safely and quickly,"

Isambard

lucernarian wrote: »

You didn't. I guess it depends on what you define as "the flow from cities to their hinterlands" though.

"the flow into and out of the cities" I said "from their hinterlands"

Bazzer007

https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/316060/limerick-council-to-take-lead-as-m20-motorway-project-drives-forward.html#.Ww-lGtDCHY0.facebook

Another small step forward. I wonder when the Engineering team will start the consultation process once a route is identified.

Limerick74

Bazzer007 wrote: »

https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/316060/limerick-council-to-take-lead-as-m20-motorway-project-drives-forward.html#.Ww-lGtDCHY0.facebook

Another small step forward. I wonder when the Engineering team will start the consultation process once a route is identified.

https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/316060/limerick-council-to-take-lead-as-m20-motorway-project-drives-forward.html

marno21

For those thinking the secondary schools finishing up would provide some N20 relief, there are now two sets of roadworks in operation along the route with stop/go systems, north of the Blarney exit and in Charleville. This was discussed on RedFM this morning with the lower speed limit on the Mallow road causing issues already. The road is more than wide enough here to provide 2 running lanes @ 60km/h with resurfacing taking part on the closed section. The road is as much as 16m wide along here.

It's no wonder that there's so much resurfacing needed given the amount of HGVs rattling down this glorified cattle track every day. There's a further 2 resurfacing jobs coming later on in the year south of Croom and north of Buttevant.

AugustusMinimus

BluntGuy wrote: »

The new M20 motorway inbetween Cork and Limerick. I've heard that there are many people that feel it's rather unnecessary considering the traffic volume.

I personally believe if they're going to upgrade the N20 route, they may as well use the safest long-term solution, which of course is a direct motorway link. But what do you all think?

First post in the thread. We’re people really trying to say 10 years ago that there wasn’t sufficient traffic?

marno21

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

First post in the thread. We’re people really trying to say 10 years ago that there wasn’t sufficient traffic?

N20 around Charleville still only has around 10k AADT.

Build the M20 and this will double. Between people actively trying to avoid the N20 and people taking alternative routes, along with people avoiding the Cork-Limerick drive altogether, the N20 traffic figures aren't indicative of demand if a proper route was there.

marno21

Shane Ross was on with Peej this morning and said the M20 is "on track" and he hoped it would be completed "within the next decade".

He was also asked about the North Ring Road but he didn't bother answering that question (I would imagine he doesn't know anything about it).

Isambard

marno21 wrote: »

N20 around Charleville still only has around 10k AADT.

Build the M20 and this will double. Between people actively trying to avoid the N20 and people taking alternative routes, along with people avoiding the Cork-Limerick drive altogether, the N20 traffic figures aren't indicative of demand if a proper route was there.

I don't believe that, don't suppose you can back it up with statistics?

Isambard

marno21 wrote: »

For those thinking the secondary schools finishing up would provide some N20 relief, there are now two sets of roadworks in operation along the route with stop/go systems, north of the Blarney exit and in Charleville. This was discussed on RedFM this morning with the lower speed limit on the Mallow road causing issues already. The road is more than wide enough here to provide 2 running lanes @ 60km/h with resurfacing taking part on the closed section. The road is as much as 16m wide along here.

It's no wonder that there's so much resurfacing needed given the amount of HGVs rattling down this glorified cattle track every day. There's a further 2 resurfacing jobs coming later on in the year south of Croom and north of Buttevant.

as regards the southern of those twos, several alternative routes spring to mind, not least what used to be the N20, better get used to that route, it will be needed when they start the M20 works! ( It's a deathtrap, I won't be going that way.

veryangryman

Isambard wrote: »

I don't believe that, don't suppose you can back it up with statistics?

AADT for long distance routes shot up when Motorways opened back in the noughties. This (one can assume) would be as a result of a less time-consuming and stressful drive. The "Ah sure is only an hour from X on the Motorway" chat is one we have all become familiar with.

AADT figures are on the TII site for N roads, sadly they don't do the Limerick-Hospital-Michelstown road (possibly because not an N road).

Chris_5339762

I wonder if they build the North Ring along with the M20 whether they'll widen the M8 Glanmire bypass to 3 lanes. It'll need it.

Then I wonder if Dunkettle is being built with that in mind.