M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

Isambard

marno21 wrote: »

At least this group have a point

The new Mallow Road was built through that area and all roads crossed bar the Station Rd in Blarney were turned into staggered junctions. They should have been bridged from day 1, and the M20 plan was to create an underpass at this location

The closure is basically being railroaded through with no alternative put in place. A simple compromise here would be to ban right runs from the N20 to the Waterloo Road, while maintaining left turns from the N20 and maintaining both left and right turns from the Waterloo Road onto the N20.

as far as I can see it wasn't right hand turns from the N20 that was the problem, it was right hand turns on to the N20

I don't know was the now closed road an existing road or a new access. Hard to see where the road once ran if it replaced an existing road.

marno21

Isambard wrote: »

as far as I can see it wasn't right hand turns from the N20 that was the problem, it was right hand turns on to the N20

I don't know was the now closed road an existing road or a new access. Hard to see where the road once ran if it replaced an existing road.

I thought it was turns off the N20 no?

Here's how it ran pre-N20, roughly:

D Trent

marno21 wrote: »

I thought it was turns off the N20 no?

Regarding the fatal collision last September which took two Americans' lives they were traveling N20 s/b turning right for Waterloo/Blarney:

"The accident happened as the tourists, who were on a dream holiday, were travelling to the popular tourist town of Blarney which is a few kilometres from where the crash happened.

They had arrived in Dublin last Friday and were visiting the tourist attractions along the way to Cork.

Their rented Skoda car collided with a grain truck coming from the Cork direction at the turn-off for Waterloo on the N20.

The force of the collision spun them out of control and the car struck another car waiting at the junction to access the main road."

But I would argue it's more dangerous turning right onto the mainline as you'd have less visibility.

Copper_pipe

Passed a car that had an accident on the way to work this morning.

Car coming from Cork and looks to have made contact with the wire in the middle of the road and debris on the other side of the road then. Car was on the grass it's side of the road. Front right quarter panel was in **** and wheel was under the car

AugustusMinimus

Ban turning right into the N20 from Waterloo but all other movements should be maintained.

Reduce the speed limit to 80kph for 300m either side of the junction and introduce some raised islands to create a safer right turn lane when travelling south on the N20.

Total cost of 50k or less and a dramatic improvement in the junction.

Cork Trucker

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Ban turning right into the N20 from Waterloo but all other movements should be maintained.

If you block off the turn with the cheese wire that will only run so far, then you run the risk of people doing a potential U turn to double back, all they can do is run something like a central barrier down the middle of the road the entire way to where the road splits into 2, as sat nav's won't be updated they will show the turn regardless of being blocked off or signage and some will take the risk.

A right turn full stop at the junction is dangerous coming on or off the N20, the main issue coming off it going left is people don't stop or look a lot of the time.

Reputable Rog

I have heard that investigations by the Fire Service found that the Sat Navs in the affected cars showed the right turn off the N20 as a slip road rather than an actual junction with oncoming traffic.
I must see what my own Sat Nav displays tomorrow when I'm passing.

Isambard

marno21 wrote: »

I thought it was turns off the N20 no?

Here's how it ran pre-N20, roughly:

taking into account the hilly nature, I can't see that being where the road ran. I think it's possible a road ran from the other side of the church but it must have been very minor.

Cork Trucker

Isambard wrote: »

taking into account the hilly nature, I can't see that being where the road ran. I think it's possible a road ran from the other side of the church but it must have been very minor.

By the church and the Waterloo inn is it?

Isambard

I think so, more or less straight line from the Church/inn to the railway bridge

Cork Trucker

Reputable Rog wrote: »

I have heard that investigations by the Fire Service found that the Sat Navs in the affected cars showed the right turn off the N20 as a slip road rather than an actual junction with oncoming traffic.
I must see what my own Sat Nav displays tomorrow when I'm passing.

Yes I heard the same myself, this is clearly a major issue in these accidents, Where sat navs are concerned I assume there is no way to update them without plugging them into a computer?

My own iPhone updates itself which is great but I reckon it will still direct me right to Blarney.

Cork Trucker

Isambard wrote: »

I think so

Looking at it I can't make out any other way how it may have looked bar what Marno showed, again while I was around pre N20 I don't remember it.

Also on Kiln hill I think that junction is officially called, there is one or two houses up there so even if it were blocked off you'd have god knows how many vehicles driving up there for the first few weeks at least.

My one fear being the driver of an artic who is foreign and can't read English will have to reverse the entire way back down.

They will probably keep it blocked in a similar fashion to what it is now, maybe this was why it was closed so discreetly then the announcement they were to shut it altogether as it is already done effectively.

AugustusMinimus

Isambard wrote: »

taking into account the hilly nature, I can't see that being where the road ran. I think it's possible a road ran from the other side of the church but it must have been very minor.

OSI Historic Map Viewer shows that Marnos drawing is correct.

http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/

Check out one of the old maps.

Isambard

very interesting, I still think you can see another link on the photo though.

Whatever, the way these junctions were done was very shoddy and has cost lives. They should all have been bridges / underpasses from day one.

Cork Trucker

How long did the N20 take to complete around there and what was the budget for the times?

Looking bad they mad several errors that you wouldn't see today.

Opened around 1990 i think.

Reputable Rog

Cork Trucker wrote: »

How long did the N20 take to complete around there and what was the budget for the times?

Looking bad they mad several errors that you wouldn't see today.

Opened around 1990 i think.

It was considered fantastic when it opened, it was of its time and was built on a limited budget and took years.
Nobody could have anticipated the massive growth in traffic and commuter patterns at the time.

Isambard

I think closing the junction until the M20 works make it redundant anyway is the right decision . I shudder to think of the antics of people Uturning if they did otherwise

Frostybrew

Cork Trucker wrote: »

How long did the N20 take to complete around there and what was the budget for the times?

Looking bad they mad several errors that you wouldn't see today.

Opened around 1990 i think.

I think this section opened in the mid 90's. Construction began around 88. Long builds were common back then. Glanmire bypass took from 85/86 to 1992, and was considered a white elephant by many, when first opened, due to lack of use.

marno21

Banning right turns at the Waterloo junction would have the net effect of the closure for the residents, as they are turning right to later turn left at the other junction down the road for Whitechurch. It's crossing the N20 is the issue for residents, not access to the N20

Reputable Rog wrote: »

It was considered fantastic when it opened, it was of its time and was built on a limited budget and took years.
Nobody could have anticipated the massive growth in traffic and commuter patterns at the time.

Indeed, it is a world apart from the old Mallow Road. It's still a disappointment that it wasn't dualled from Rathduff to Cork, as the road is certainly wide enough for it and they were dualling Blarney-Cork anyway.

Frostybrew wrote: »

I think this section opened in the mid 90's. Construction began around 88. Long builds were common back then. Glanmire bypass took from 85/86 to 1992, and was considered a white elephant by many, when first opened, due to lack of use.

It is said elsewhere that work on the Glanmire bypass was stop start as work would be suspended for long periods until more funding was allocated. In fairness, Cork's roads got a lot of investment in the 1980s/1990s, the Glanmire BP, Mallow Road, South Ring Road, South Link Road, Jack Lynch Tunnel, N28 to Carrs Hill, Airport Hill widening, new road Ballinhassig-Halfway, East Cork Parkway etc.

Isambard

marno21 wrote: »

Indeed, it is a world apart from the old Mallow Road. It's still a disappointment that it wasn't dualled from Rathduff to Cork, as the road is certainly wide enough for it and they were dualling Blarney-Cork anyway.



.

Indeed and a great disappointment that the 2+1 further north was not rebuilt as a dual when they rebuilt the almost new road a year or two back, there's room for it I think.

marno21

Isambard wrote: »

Indeed and a great disappointment that the 2+1 further north was not rebuilt as a dual when they rebuilt the almost new road a year or two back, there's room for it I think.

There probably is room but it would have required closing junctions and removing right turns. Wouldn't be a popular move

They'd have been better ripping up the wire and returning it to a WS2 with climbing lanes. The current setup is a mess, and borderline dangerous for a road with that volume of traffic.

Thankfully the plan to put down 2+1 on many national roads was replaced with 2+2 back in the late 00s. Imagine the N20 had been replaced with a 2+1 from Blarney to Patrickswell.

Frostybrew

marno21 wrote: »

It is said elsewhere that work on the Glanmire bypass was stop start as work would be suspended for long periods until more funding was allocated. In fairness, Cork's roads got a lot of investment in the 1980s/1990s, the Glanmire BP, Mallow Road, South Ring Road, South Link Road, Jack Lynch Tunnel, N28 to Carrs Hill, Airport Hill widening, new road Ballinhassig-Halfway, East Cork Parkway etc.

I'd say the Mallow road progress was something similar. Remember going for a walk on it back in 1990 during the summer. Half built earthworks and zero construction activity.

Isambard

marno21 wrote: »

There probably is room but it would have required closing junctions and removing right turns. Wouldn't be a popular move

They'd have been better ripping up the wire and returning it to a WS2 with climbing lanes. The current setup is a mess, and borderline dangerous for a road with that volume of traffic.

Thankfully the plan to put down 2+1 on many national roads was replaced with 2+2 back in the late 00s. Imagine the N20 had been replaced with a 2+1 from Blarney to Patrickswell.

it achieves the object of preventing right turners from being rear-ended but creates other problems such as a simple shunt shutting the road or one tractor holding up 100 cars. I can never understand why they replaced the barriers when they resurfaced when there are several climbing lanes on the same road without them, and what's more these have been resurfaced without them also.

Roll on the M20

AugustusMinimus

That cheese wire is beyond lethal for bikers. Should be banned outright with a retro fitting programme replacing all sections with Armco or concrete nationwide.

AugustusMinimus

Another interesting point to note is that a further junction for the same road was closed when the new road opened in the early 90s. It’s a few miles up the road towards Rathduff. There is a significant tunnel under the railway on the other side.

Wonder was their complaints when this one closed back in the day.

Cork Trucker

Reputable Rog wrote: »

It was considered fantastic when it opened, it was of its time and was built on a limited budget and took years.
Nobody could have anticipated the massive growth in traffic and commuter patterns at the time.

You're right about no one knowing the future, Ireland was a very different country even back then.

Isambard wrote: »

I think closing the junction until the M20 works make it redundant anyway is the right decision . I shudder to think of the antics of people Uturning if they did otherwise

And you will get people who'll try a U turn to try and save time, i see it on the South City Link, Commons Road etc.

Frostybrew wrote: »

I think this section opened in the mid 90's. Construction began around 88. Long builds were common back then. Glanmire bypass took from 85/86 to 1992, and was considered a white elephant by many, when first opened, due to lack of use.

I remember going as far as Blarney on that road in the very early 90's, no later than 1992 for certain.

The Glanmire Bypass i remember being built.

Cork Trucker

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

That cheese wire is beyond lethal for bikers. Should be banned outright with a retro fitting programme replacing all sections with Armco or concrete nationwide.

Lucky this wasn't a fatality in Rathduff last year.

http://www.thejournal.ie/garda-motorcyclist-injured-after-coming-off-bike-3630973-Oct2017/

Reputable Rog

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

That cheese wire is beyond lethal for bikers. Should be banned outright with a retro fitting programme replacing all sections with Armco or concrete nationwide.

And how long would it take to retrofit? Can't cope with the endless roadworks.

marno21

Isambard wrote: »

it achieves the object of preventing right turners from being rear-ended but creates other problems such as a simple shunt shutting the road or one tractor holding up 100 cars. I can never understand why they replaced the barriers when they resurfaced when there are several climbing lanes on the same road without them, and what's more these have been resurfaced without them also.

Roll on the M20

They should just return it to WS2, climbing lanes or no climbing lanes. The overtaking areas are useless anyway because you can overtake 4/5 cars only to be still going at the same speed when it goes back to 1 lane.

Roads such as Cork-Mallow are not suitable for 2+1 and the persistence in using it is ridiculous. Too much traffic, too many junctions

Reputable Rog wrote: »

And how long would it take to retrofit? Can't cope with the endless roadworks.

Should've been done in 2015/16 when they created endless delays for what seemed like forever to put down brand new cheese wire

Isambard

that's why I was surprised they renewed it instead of giving up on a failed experiment. It would have save money too, that barrier must have cost a mint