M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

kub

Local and Euro.elections in a few weeks. Possible General Election within the next year.

This crowd have form, the sod turning of the Cork Events Centre comes to mind.

Carawaystick

Isambard wrote: »

there will be a non-motorway alternative route as always for vehicles not able to use a motorway

But will there be a high quality safe alternative route? Or the usual less safe ones we have now?

Calina

Carawaystick wrote: »

But will there be a high quality safe alternative route? Or the usual less safe ones we have now?

Depends on how much volume of traffic contributes to the safety aspect.

Isambard

Carawaystick wrote: »

But will there be a high quality safe alternative route? Or the usual less safe ones we have now?

it will be safer than now because the volume of traffic will decrease on the non-Motorway

hans aus dtschl

kub wrote: »

Local and Euro.elections in a few weeks. Possible General Election within the next year.

This crowd have form, the sod turning of the Cork Events Centre comes to mind.

My thoughts exactly: this latest announcement was met with guffaws by everyone I know, who heard it. They happily turn the sod on flying pigs for the Cork area, then disappear until the next election cycle.

marno21

Edgar Morgenroth on Newstalk Breakfast again this morning questioning the need for a Cork-Limerick motorway

https://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/highlights-from-newstalk-breakfast/actually-need-motorway-cork-limerick

The image Newstalk use to promote the piece imo answers the question quite well

Cookiemunster

marno21 wrote: »

Edgar Morgenroth on Newstalk Breakfast again this morning questioning the need for a Cork-Limerick motorway

https://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/highlights-from-newstalk-breakfast/actually-need-motorway-cork-limerick

The image Newstalk use to promote the piece imo answers the question quite well

It's amazing the airtime he gets. What about the economists who actually agree with the need for the road?

neddynasty

Just overheard a conversation in the office.

Employee 1: "Looks like the M20 is going ahead"
Employee 2: "Tut, sure they say that every year"

Sums up the feeling on this road upgrade.

AugustusMinimus

Why is there such a drive to stop this road from happening.

I don’t remember anything of the sort for M17 Nd M18 schemes.

spacetweek

It’s mystifying.

Aontachtoir

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Why is there such a drive to stop this road from happening.

I don’t remember anything of the sort for M17 Nd M18 schemes.

To be honest, I don't think the resistance to this road is completely off the charts. Most major infrastructure projects face pushback (we're still waiting for the judicial review decision on the relatively small-scale 12-km M28). People who aren't going to see immediate and direct benefit from the M20 (like people living in Tipperary who would benefit much more from an M24) feel they have nothing to lose by trying to take some of the €1bn promised for the M20 for the N24 (or whatever) instead.

Maybe the reason it seems like there is disproportionate pushback to the M20 is because it has been stewing for well over a decade, or, alternatively, the pushback is more noticeable just because there are no other major motorway projects currently underway. Look at the vicious opposition to the Galway bypass if you want a comparison.

Edit: forgot to mention the fact that the government has thrown itself strongly behind the M20. It has become a symbol of commitment to the south and southwest, as well as the Atlantic corridor as a whole. While it is fair to mention the pushback received in some quarters, we shouldn't forget that the M20 also has a huge degree of support, especially in the places that actually matter, like the Department of Transport and the relevant Councils.

blindsider

I'm sure there is support - I just wonder why the target date is 2027(heard on radio today) ...? if there's so much support, is this really the case? 2027 FFS!

Surely they should be able to open this in 2023-4...?

marno21

blindsider wrote: »

I'm sure there is support - I just wonder why the target date is 2027(heard on radio today) ...? if there's so much support, is this really the case? 2027 FFS!

Surely they should be able to open this in 2023-4...?

Current plan is for the project to be with An Bord Pleanala in 2021, construction start in 2023 and completion by 2027.

For a project with no route selected, having it complete within 8 years is extraordinarily ambitious.

Take for example current active project timelines.

The M21 took 5 years to get from where the M20 currently is to An Bord Pleanala.
It is currently taking at least 1 year to get through An Bord Pleanala
The advance works for the M20 scheme are timetabled for 2 years, which will require around €160m of spending on land and advance works
4 years of construction seems reasonable.

If these stages were to be timelined as they are occuring right now, this is how I would put it

2019 - project start
2024 - An Bord Pleanala submission
2027 - construction start
2031 - completion.

AugustusMinimus

marno21 wrote: »

Current plan is for the project to be with An Bord Pleanala in 2021, construction start in 2023 and completion by 2027.

For a project with no route selected, having it complete within 8 years is extraordinarily ambitious.

Take for example current active project timelines.

The M21 took 5 years to get from where the M20 currently is to An Bord Pleanala.
It is currently taking at least 1 year to get through An Bord Pleanala
The advance works for the M20 scheme are timetabled for 2 years, which will require around €160m of spending on land and advance works
4 years of construction seems reasonable.

If these stages were to be timelined as they are occuring right now, this is how I would put it

2019 - project start
2024 - An Bord Pleanala submission
2027 - construction start
2031 - completion.

That’s depressing beyond belief.

marno21

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

That’s depressing beyond belief.

It is. I'm happy to be proven wrong on it (and I hope I am), but that's how long these stages are taking at the minute.

And remember the M21 is 16km of motorway and 17km of dual carriageway, around 1/3rd what's involved with the M20.

snotboogie

marno21 wrote: »

Edgar Morgenroth on Newstalk Breakfast again this morning questioning the need for a Cork-Limerick motorway

https://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/highlights-from-newstalk-breakfast/actually-need-motorway-cork-limerick

The image Newstalk use to promote the piece imo answers the question quite well

He stumbled on the question if he could name two other European cities not linked by motorway, “they were built 50 years ago, they wouldn’t do that now...” Frank Crowley of UCC is hammering this anti M20 drum too. As the other poster said, where were these economists when they were linking Gort and Tuam??

pigtown

marno21 wrote: »

Edgar Morgenroth on Newstalk Breakfast again this morning questioning the need for a Cork-Limerick motorway

https://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/highlights-from-newstalk-breakfast/actually-need-motorway-cork-limerick

The image Newstalk use to promote the piece imo answers the question quite well

That man speaks a lot of sense. When you're trying to attract people to Limerick or Cork, is the sales pitch going to be: we've rubbish public transport but look, you can save time on your drive to another city?

Either the government wants to grow sustainable cities as the NDP says, or it doesn't. And the fact that they haven't even attempted to investigate whether investing in rail between the two cities might be an acceptable alternative, or even reserving land parallel to the new road for a future direct rail line between Charleville and Limerick, shows that they have no interest in keeping up with current thinking in relation to climate change.

prunudo

The only argument that I see repeatedly being used to argue against the m20 upgrade is the money should be spent on public transport. I didnt realise that the route was only used by private car! These detractors seem to forget that motorway network is used to transport huge quantities of goods and also has opened up express bus journeys between large urban areas.
As the economy and population grows we still need to transport goods and people around. We can't just stop investing in road infrastructure because the current cool thing to do is knock the combustion engine. Vehicles with electric, hydrogen or whatever new propulsion technology will still need roads to move on.

KELTICKNIGHTT

pigtown wrote: »

That man speaks a lot of sense. When you're trying to attract people to Limerick or Cork, is the sales pitch going to be: we've rubbish public transport but look, you can save time on your drive to another city?

Either the government wants to grow sustainable cities as the NDP says, or it doesn't. And the fact that they haven't even attempted to investigate whether investing in rail between the two cities might be an acceptable alternative, or even reserving land parallel to the new road for a future direct rail line between Charleville and Limerick, shows that they have no interest in keeping up with current thinking in relation to climate change.

That guy on newstalk talked rubbish.hes a dub.he doesn't live in area. I know plenty of people specially drivers who drive that road 4 to 6 times a day. In bad weather it's worse road to drive. Its time for government to spend money to 8mprove road structures outside of Dublin. As far rail. For people it's too expensive. I drive that road every week.if you drive the n20 then you know a motorway is needed if you don't then you don't have a clue

cgcsb

The M20 has a perfectly valid case for processing. The Tuam to Athenry scheme had no business proceeding to construction stage. Similarly the Galway bypass has no compelling need and I think it'll be scrapped.

That being said there should absolutely be improvements made to limerick junction and direct Cork-Galway services should be on offer. This can happen now with very little investment.

The rail offering should be improved and the motorway should be built. They aren't mutually exclusive options.

Speaking of rail there should be reliable hourly services from Cork to Galway that take under 3 hours. It is ghastly that the government just 're opened a Victorian era route with no concern for journey time issues, flooding or reliability, but there you go. It should have been built as a modern railway.

marno21

Frank Crowley, Edgar Morgenroth make one good point. There absolutely needs to be more investment in both Cork and Limerick cities to make them more liveable. Hence the fact that the NTA are working on 20 year transport strategies for both Cork and Limerick at the minute.

However, this doesn't mean that the M20 be scrapped for potential future public transport projects. Ireland is not a poor country and we can definitely afford both. There is also a clear case for the M20, even without cars its important for express bus services and also the large quantity of trucks that use the route.

What's clear from this debate is that there needs to be major investment in BOTH inter urban connectivity and sustainable mobility in the cities. Robbing Peter to pay Paul is not the solution. A proper infrastructure programme with the necessary funding is.

Isambard

cgcsb wrote: »

The M20 has a perfectly valid case for processing. The Tuam to Athenry scheme had no business proceeding to construction stage. Similarly the Galway bypass has no compelling need and I think it'll be scrapped.

That being said there should absolutely be improvements made to limerick junction and direct Cork-Galway services should be on offer. This can happen now with very little investment.

The rail offering should be improved and the motorway should be built. They aren't mutually exclusive options.

Speaking of rail there should be reliable hourly services from Cork to Galway that take under 3 hours. It is ghastly that the government just 're opened a Victorian era route with no concern for journey time issues, flooding or reliability, but there you go. It should have been built as a modern railway.

what improvements do you see for Limerick Junction other than the ones currently being built.

A through Cork to Galway service is possible but it would take forever and would have competition from the direct Cork Limerick Galway coach service which I'd say would be much quicker and also cheaper.

cgcsb

Isambard wrote: »

what improvements do you see for Limerick Junction other than the ones currently being built.

A through Cork to Galway service is possible but it would take forever and would have competition from the direct Cork Limerick Galway coach service which I'd say would be much quicker and also cheaper.

Doesn't the train have to reverse to do a Cork-Limerick journey?

The point was that the railway should be improved. Cork to Galway in under 3 hours should be easily achievable with modest spend, the journey times between Ennis and Galway are atrocious

marno21

cgcsb wrote: »

Doesn't the train have to reverse to do a Cork-Limerick journey?

The point was that the railway should be improved. Cork to Galway in under 3 hours should be easily achievable with modest spend, the journey times between Ennis and Galway are atrocious

The railway line between Ennis and Galway is open less than 10 years. The time to put in place journey time improvements along that line was 10 years ago. That ship has now sailed.

A motorway express bus between Cork and Galway stopping in Limerick, with another bus stopping in Mallow/Shannon/Ennis is the way forward here. Bus lanes in and out of Cork/Limerick are quite important.

cgcsb

marno21 wrote: »

The railway line between Ennis and Galway is open less than 10 years. The time to put in place journey time improvements along that line was 10 years ago. That ship has now sailed.

A motorway express bus between Cork and Galway stopping in Limerick, with another bus stopping in Mallow/Shannon/Ennis is the way forward here. Bus lanes in and out of Cork/Limerick are quite important.

Not sure what this has to do with my post. Improving the intercity tail network is important and new motorways won't change that.

Isambard

cgcsb wrote: »

Doesn't the train have to reverse to do a Cork-Limerick journey?

The point was that the railway should be improved. Cork to Galway in under 3 hours should be easily achievable with modest spend, the journey times between Ennis and Galway are atrocious

No reversal needed at Lim Junc however reversals in Limerick and Athenry would make the journey uncompetitive.

steeler j

Isambard wrote: »

I'd say there's no need. The M7 and M8 are both two lanes and very quiet most of the time. In fact I beleive they could have economised by building the M7 and the M20 and forgetting the M8

Cahir has done very well since the m8 was built, the m8 was done because it was between Cork and Dublin,some of the the towns on the m20 could benefit when the road is done

Isambard

steeler j wrote: »

Cahir has done very well since the m8 was built, the m8 was done because it was between Cork and Dublin,some of the the towns on the m20 could benefit when the road is done

the M8 is between Port Laoise and Cork. It could just as easily have been from Limerick to Cork.

Reputable Rog

Isambard wrote: »

the M8 is between Port Laoise and Cork. It could just as easily have been from Limerick to Cork.

There's a Dutch lecturer in Planning,Henk Van der Kemp and that was something he advocated, along with reopening the railway from Charleville to Limerick.
When the motorway building project commenced in the late 90's there was huge opportunities wasted in terms of land take etc which could have facilitated more than roads.

steeler j

Isambard wrote: »

the M8 is between Port Laoise and Cork. It could just as easily have been from Limerick to Cork.

yes and it is a direct link to Dublin after Portlaoise ,some people only think the m20 is needed but it is only one part of a road network,it is the next most important part with the n4 and m28 ,what about all the people and towns off the m8 they would still be traveling to Portlaois and Cork on a terrible road