M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

Hogzy

Sponge Bob wrote: »

since dedeisgnated

redesignated?

Carawaystick

Hogzy wrote: »

redesignated?

nope. the N80 from Tullamore to Clara is downgraded from national secondary to RsomeThingOrOther

corktina

Carawaystick wrote: »

nope. the N80 from Tullamore to Clara is downgraded from national secondary to RsomeThingOrOther

oh so dedeisgnated it is then...

Tech3

The M20 was absolutely gridlocked from J4 southbound today. A load of traffic heading to Adare today to the Pro am event. Got a good look at the wire rope to check for any damage and I saw plenty of it. The NRA need to get some better safety barrier for the median than this pile of muck:



Heres a pic of the traffic jammed up badly towards the N20 junction.

Tech3

A great picture from CCSL on the Limerick forum of the traffic chaos on the southbound carriageway around the same time I was trying to head home at 11:30am.

corktina

what are all those cars doing in the inside lane? :eek:

Oh I forgot, it isnt the Naas Road is it!

Mc Love

Access to the M20 road could be restored...but in all honesty I cant see it happening:

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/Access-to-N20-road-could.6400548.jp

Zoney

Mc Love wrote: »

Access to the M20 road could be restored...but in all honesty I cant see it happening:

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/Access-to-N20-road-could.6400548.jp

If it does happen with a reconfiguration of the Rosbrien interchange itself, it would probably mean that Galway->Cork (i.e. N18 South to M20 South) would not be freeflow - the most likely alteration of the junction configuration would be to have this cross an M20 North to R509 flow via an at-grade roundabout (due to the space, the link from R509 to M20 South and the loop for M7 East would also probably have to go through this at-grade roundabout). In other words, it would only be M20 North to N18 North, M20 North to M7 East and M7 West to M20 South that would remain freeflow.

Edthehead

In response to some of your replies regarding Buttevant.
If one looks at a map of all the junctions on the Cork to Limerick stretch of the proposed M20 (average 7 to 10km) there is one large 18km gap between Mallow and Charleville, now even if there was no town half way between these two junctions that’s a long stretch between junctions (in the UK the longest distance they have between two junctions is 18 miles, they have placed a services half way between these junctions and put up signs warning motorists of the large distance before the next junction) if someone takes the wrong slip road in Mallow and heads north instead of south they will have to travel 38km before they get back to Mallow.

Common sense tells you a junction should have been planned for Buttevant bearing in mind this junction would also serve Donerail, Churchtown and Liscarroll, the population of these areas including their parishes would be somewhere in the region of 6 to 8 thousand people. The NRA in their wisdom done a traffic count when the streets of Buttevant were dug up for the new sewerage system they apparently came back when the roads were filled back in and done another, how accurate could that have been?

Buttevant have been promised by the NRA a high quality connection to the M20, the road north of Buttevant has a higher than the national average rate of accidents and fatalities, the road south of Buttevant has twice the national average of accidents, the NRA has stated that the stretch of road north and south of Buttevant is not fit for what it is used for, too dangerous for most road users but grand for the people of Buttevant, is this the high quality connection they are proposing?

The existing N20 will be downgraded once the M20 opens, that means the council won’t be salting it on frosty mornings, if anyone remembers during the 80’s what Ballybeg was like to drive through on frosty mornings, you can imagine what the accident rate is going to be then. Oh I forgot it won’t matter because it will only be Buttevant people dying.

This is all about money, the NRA can save themselves 5 million by not putting a junction at Buttevant, the road will pass within one mile of the town, and to me that makes no sense.

Buttevants population has declined between the late 90’s and 2009 when other towns were expanding it was nearly impossible to get planning for any housing on commercial project due to the inadequate water and sewerage systems in the town. In recent years a lot of land has been rezoned commercial, industrial and housing on the strength of the new systems being installed. These systems are now complete, Buttevant missed out on growth during the Celtic tiger years due to the Council dragging their heels and not upgrading the water and sewerage systems. Now that all that money has been invested the NRA want waste all that investment by not providing the town with a connection. What are the chances of getting any company to set up in newly zoned areas if the have to drive 10km of (in the NRA’s words) dangerous roads.

The Cork County Council recognised Buttevants potential for growth (64% over the next 10 years) and put the services in place for it, and the NRA ignored all of that and decided to save 5 million. To me this is typical Ireland, its the Gas company digging up the road putting down pipes and re-tarring the road, and two months later the ESB come along and dig it up again to put down cables. You could argue they are two different companies, but the NRA and the County Councils work for the state, no wonder the country is the way it is.

Edthehead

KerranJast wrote: »

Buttevant is barely above a village. Talk of them expanding is crazy.

Why??

Hogzy wrote: »

WHat are they giving out about. Id say all in all about 10 cars a day from Buttevant would use the slip road.

The statment some people make with no facts... sad!

All they have to do is travel 10km in either direction for Cork or Limerick.
Jesus some people in this country and their sense of entitlement :rolleyes:




and LOL @ Lisa Fitzgerald who thinks that because there is no slip road people wont stop for food in The Welcome Inn. Surely if the journey time is cut to 1hr-45mins people wont be stopping for food anywhere.

Agree with you there, but her business will suffer if the population declines even more.

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Yes if people want a large town or city they should move to one.

Another ridiculous statement.

corktina wrote: »

not so many years ago the residents of Buttevant got up a petition AGAINST a bypass....

they will have link roads to the M20...its called the N20 at the moment.

Again wrong! it was a few traders that objected the residents were all for it.

Hogzy

Edthehead wrote: »

the NRA has stated that the stretch of road north and south of Buttevant is not fit for what it is used for, too dangerous for most road users but grand for the people of Buttevant, is this the high quality connection they are proposing?

Yes the rate of accidents will dramatically decrease once the traffic is taken off the road via the M20 so it will suffice such a small town/village

The existing N20 will be downgraded once the M20 opens, that means the council won’t be salting it on frosty mornings, if anyone remembers during the 80’s what Ballybeg was like to drive through on frosty mornings, you can imagine what the accident rate is going to be then. Oh I forgot it won’t matter because it will only be Buttevant people dying.

This is happening in all towns that are being bypassed. Look at Abbeyleix for instance, Since it has been bypassed it is around 10km from the motorway. Those roads are not salted either. Same goes for Thurles and Cashel.

Now that all that money has been invested the NRA want waste all that investment by not providing the town with a connection. What are the chances of getting any company to set up in newly zoned areas if the have to drive 10km of (in the NRA’s words) dangerous roads.

Its 10km in fairness, Which will add 5mins to the drive. I dont think the NRA are completely closed to the idea of a slip for Buttevant. Its possible they will build one in the future when there is evidence that Buttevant requires a slip.Can you link to the study as regards the growth rate of the town. It was probably done 3 or 4 years ago and to be fair things have changed alot since then.

Does anyone know if cost is the only reason they are not building the slip road?

Edthehead

KerranJast wrote: »

There are already 3 large towns within spitting distance of Buttevant which would take any increase in population in that side of the county.

So your saying some towns should be allowed to develop at the expense of others, if Buttevant wants to develop and expand it should be allowed to. Its location half way between Cork and Limerick, its close proximity to the M20 makes it an ideal distribution centre for Munster, it has a very good chance of growth if it has a local connection to the motorway, without it I think no chance. Look Buttevant may not be everybody's cup of tea I'm sure you all think where you live is better but I was born here grew up here, was abroad for a number of years but moved back in the 90's, its all about communities and on that note its a fantastic place to live. Long may it continue.

Hogzy

Ed can you try consolidate all your replies into one post. It makes it much cleaner and easier to read.

You really seem to love your town and fair play to you, i love where i come from aswell but 5 million Euro is alot of money for something which has an extremely low demand. Who is to say that Buttevant will have industry flocking to it once it has a link to the motorway. Its no more competitive than any other town in Ireland with or without the link. Not every town in Ireland can have a link to their nearest motorway. Otherwise there would be junction after junction after junction along the routes.

Edthehead

Sorry, I've only just noticed the multi quote thingie:D and it was a pain in the *** replying individually.

True there is no guarantee, but 5 million in the overall cost of this scheme is nothing. To say Buttevant is no different to any other town is wrong because not every other town in the country was the only town on the Cork to Limerick not to get a link and when you consider the average junction distance between each junction would have placed one at Buttevant you can see why were annoyed. I know for a fact the NRA are sitting very uncomfortably at the moment with this issue, time will tell.

corktina

Edthehead wrote: »

Again wrong! it was a few traders that objected the residents were all for it.

didnt see a petition in favour of it from anyone..... and the traders were no doubt residents too were they not?

Aidan1

So your saying some towns should be allowed to develop at the expense of others.

Yes, it's called spatial planning.

if Buttevant wants to develop and expand it should be allowed to

No, it shouldn't. Local and regional planning and zoning decisions are taken by the local authority and by national Govt. Not by a few shopowners in every town in the country. Unless those shop owners are county councillors and can zone their own land for development, but thats a different story.and on thats about to change.

Buttevant is a small town, about to be bypassed (eventually). This is something that has happened repeatedly in this country in the last 10 years, and the point has to be made (repeatedly) that not every town requires a direct linkage to the motorway. It's not a direct or personal attack on the town or it's population, just a statement of fact. But there's always at least one local journalist determined to make a story out of the fact that people from Buttevant/Gort/Abbyleix/wherever will have to drive 'a whole 5km!' (or whatever) to get to the motorway. Long story short, time to get over it.

Amtmann

How do we know that the price of a junction is 5 million out of curiosity? Durrow and Littleton on the M8 find themselves in a fairly similar situation to Buttevant, by the way.

I am undecided on this. Lord knows the NRA aren't renowned for always designing good junctions, and I wouldn't necessarily put their decision to omit a junction here down to wisdom or best practice.

munchkin_utd

They should toll the shaggin yoke on the 20km central section,
then the people of buttevant would be loath to use the motorway anyway, negating the need or clamour for a junction!!!
If going to cork, they'd be happy to drive to few km North of Mallow and catch the fancy link road to the Motorway.

I say that slightly sarchasticly, but in all seriousness, if the government is skint but building billion euro roads, then a toll on the central section which isnt detrimental to commuters shouldnt be disregarded.

And it would be good for Buttevant as truckers would avoid the toll and provide trade for their shops etc.

Zoney

I'll admit that on the public consultation (responding to leaflet/questionnaire in the door) I did suggest a junction at Buttevant - the spacing of the junctions seemed to leave a "gap" at Buttevant and there are existing R roads (not just local) that not only serve Buttevant but the surrounding area.

Population-wise it probably doesn't need it and I would consider it not to be an absolute necessity, but it does seem a bit of an omission in the context of Irish rural motorways (and the level of intercity traffic is such that another junction in such a location won't impact on congestion).

It was only one of the minor points I mentioned in my reply to the NRA. The biggest objection I had was to N21/M20 junction which in the leaflet was planned as freeflow with no flow for N21 east to M20 south, which I considered a poor omission (I am not a fan of M7/M9 or M7/M8 either). I will freely admit I consider the current roundabout junction plan for N21 and southern bypass of Adare a far far poorer arrangement even if it does allow all flows. Another poor decisions is simply changing Patrickswell West to be a dumbell link to the old N21 (i.e. what is likely to remain the N21 proper for some time now).

Edthehead

corktina wrote: »

didnt see a petition in favour of it from anyone..... and the traders were no doubt residents too were they not?

You generalised and stated the residents objected, that is simply not true, there was a lot of anger in the town after it was announced there was to be no bypass. We are talking about a long time ago but I was told recently that the bypass was shelved due to Archeology finds on part of the proposed route, I don't know how true this is but the new motorway has been shifted 1km further east of the earlier proposed route.

"They should toll the shaggin yoke on the 20km central section"
"And it would be good for Buttevant as truckers would avoid the toll and provide trade for their shops etc."

"

We have been informed that the road will be tolled at the Cork end and Limerick end and that there will be none at Buttevant. The last thing Buttevant wants is traffic continuing to run through the town, we want to be bypassed and feel we are entitled to a link. Regardless what any of you think, no one will argue that a direct link will be bad for the town and if anyone of you were in the same position as us you would do the same as we are doing.

I'm not a trader and a direct link or not will have very little effect on me but anything that threatens the place I call home makes me want to stand up and be counted.

"Local and regional planning and zoning decisions are taken by the local authority and by national Govt. Not by a few shopowners in every town in the country."

The re-zoning of lands in Buttevant was part of the Cork County Development plan and Buttevant was singled out as a town with good development potential hence the investment by the Cork County Council in the services. Regardless of the traffic count results the NRA should not have ignored this fact.
An Board Pleanala are not just concerned with shifting cars from Cork to Limerick but take other factors on board too this hearing could go against us but all we will loose will be the money we raised to funds the reports we got sanctioned, it could also go our way and the NRA may be forced to go back to the planning stage. We have been objecting to this for the last two years but the NRA just dismissed us as if we didn't exist.
This should never have been allowed to get to this stage but is typical of a lot of the State bodies.

On the NRA's traffic count details the figures they released fall way short of the figures we received by the private consultant we employed, when he asked for a report on how they came to the results they got they refused to supply them to him. Strange that!

Finally, does anyone here think a junction at Buttevant would be a bad thing??

invinciblePRSTV

Edthehead wrote: »

In response to some of your replies regarding Buttevant.
If one looks at a map of all the junctions on the Cork to Limerick stretch of the proposed M20 (average 7 to 10km) there is one large 18km gap between Mallow and Charleville, now even if there was no town half way between these two junctions that’s a long stretch between junctions (in the UK the longest distance they have between two junctions is 18 miles, they have placed a services half way between these junctions and put up signs warning motorists of the large distance before the next junction) if someone takes the wrong slip road in Mallow and heads north instead of south they will have to travel 38km before they get back to Mallow.

I don't think it's justification to build a junction on the basis of people taking wrong turns or because of long distances between junctions, especially when the distance isn't really all that great.

Edthehead wrote: »

Common sense tells you a junction should have been planned for Buttevant bearing in mind this junction would also serve Donerail, Churchtown and Liscarroll, the population of these areas including their parishes would be somewhere in the region of 6 to 8 thousand people. The NRA in their wisdom done a traffic count when the streets of Buttevant were dug up for the new sewerage system they apparently came back when the roads were filled back in and done another, how accurate could that have been?

I think the NRA will have done many traffic counts, amongst other data collection methods, when doing traffic assessments for the area. Your insinuation that somehow the NRA don't have the correct traffic counts for the town are well wide of the mark i'd wager.

Edthehead wrote: »

Buttevant have been promised by the NRA a high quality connection to the M20, the road north of Buttevant has a higher than the national average rate of accidents and fatalities, the road south of Buttevant has twice the national average of accidents, the NRA has stated that the stretch of road north and south of Buttevant is not fit for what it is used for, too dangerous for most road users but grand for the people of Buttevant, is this the high quality connection they are proposing?

Accidents happen because of the large volumes on the existing N20, as mentioned this traffic will be removed when the M20 is built.

Edthehead wrote: »

The existing N20 will be downgraded once the M20 opens, that means the council won’t be salting it on frosty mornings, if anyone remembers during the 80’s what Ballybeg was like to drive through on frosty mornings, you can imagine what the accident rate is going to be then. Oh I forgot it won’t matter because it will only be Buttevant people dying.

Cork County Council grit R roads around county towns also.

Edthehead wrote: »

This is all about money, the NRA can save themselves 5 million by not putting a junction at Buttevant, the road will pass within one mile of the town, and to me that makes no sense.

It's not all about money, it's about connecting the 3 urban area's of Cork, Galway & Limerick. It makes no sense to be plopping expensive junctions along the M20 for every small town or village.

Edthehead wrote: »

Buttevants population has declined between the late 90’s and 2009 when other towns were expanding it was nearly impossible to get planning for any housing on commercial project due to the inadequate water and sewerage systems in the town. In recent years a lot of land has been rezoned commercial, industrial and housing on the strength of the new systems being installed. These systems are now complete, Buttevant missed out on growth during the Celtic tiger years due to the Council dragging their heels and not upgrading the water and sewerage systems. Now that all that money has been invested the NRA want waste all that investment by not providing the town with a connection. What are the chances of getting any company to set up in newly zoned areas if the have to drive 10km of (in the NRA’s words) dangerous roads.

Buttevant will still be able to access the M20 via other exits, and given the redesignation of the N20 you'll have a pretty decent road network and connections given the population and general remoteness of Buttevant.

Edthehead wrote: »

The Cork County Council recognised Buttevants potential for growth (64% over the next 10 years) and put the services in place for it, and the NRA ignored all of that and decided to save 5 million. To me this is typical Ireland, its the Gas company digging up the road putting down pipes and re-tarring the road, and two months later the ESB come along and dig it up again to put down cables. You could argue they are two different companies, but the NRA and the County Councils work for the state, no wonder the country is the way it is.

That 64% figure is an aspirational one, probably made in celtic tiger times and has little meaning in these times. Besides your Buttevant exclusive focus misses out on one key point: The M20 is not about Buttevant, the town needs to accept that the project isn't there to deliver an economic boost to the town. You have to realise the M20s raison d'être isn't to provide an economic stimulus to Buttevant, but to decrease journey times between Cork & Limerick/Galway.

Edthehead

Furet wrote: »

How do we know that the price of a junction is 5 million out of curiosity? .

This figure was being batted about with talks with the planning people in Cork. As it is a junction for Buttevant was drawn into the first draft of the motorway plan, but was removed by the boys in Dublin.

Our independent consultants say a junction where an underpass already exists can be built for 2 million but these are the type of junctions I don't like, where cars decelerate on a lane on the motorway and accelerate on a lane. The 5 million (our consultant says it could be closer to 4 million) is a proper separate slip road where deceleration happens once off the motorway.

Edthehead

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

I don't think it's justification to build a junction on the basis of people taking wrong turns or because of long distances between junctions, especially when the distance isn't really all that great..

It's not justification on its own but it is a factor when you take all our other arguments.

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

I think the NRA will have done many traffic counts, amongst other data collection methods, when doing traffic assessments for the area. Your insinuation that somehow the NRA don't have the correct traffic counts for the town are well wide of the mark i'd wager...

Our independent assessors beg to differ.

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Accidents happen because of the large volumes on the existing N20, as mentioned this traffic will be removed when the M20 is built...

A lot of the accidents have happened out of peak times, its still a very dangerous stretch of road regardless of volume.

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Cork County Council grit R roads around county towns also...

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

It's not all about money, it's about connecting the 3 urban area's of Cork, Galway & Limerick. It makes no sense to be plopping expensive junctions along the M20 for every small town or village...

True, but this is a very obvious place to have a junction.

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

That 64% figure is an aspirational one, probably made in celtic tiger times and has little meaning in these times. Besides your Buttevant exclusive focus misses out on one key point: The M20 is not about Buttevant, the town needs to accept that the project isn't there to deliver an economic boost to the town. You have to realise the M20s raison d'être isn't to provide an economic stimulus to Buttevant, but to decrease journey times between Cork & Limerick/Galway.

Yes but when a possible economic boost opportunity comes along we'd be fools not to fight for it. The report suggests the town will decline even more without this connection, if it stayed as it is I'd be happy enough as I like where I live but if it declines even more it may not be as attractive anymore.

Edthehead

How does this multi quote thing work??

right I fixed it but there must be an easier way.

Amtmann

Edthehead wrote: »

How does this multi quote thing work??

Ed, it is the third button over after the "edit" and "quote" buttons. It looks like a square blue button with a white page and two black quotation marks and a little plus sign on it. You simply click that button on all of the posts you'd like to quote from, and then hit the reply button when you're done.

Edthehead

Happy days, thanks.

Hogzy

Furet wrote: »

Ed, it is the third button over after the "edit" and "quote" buttons. It looks like a square blue button with a white page and two black quotation marks and a little plus sign on it. You simply click that button on all of the posts you'd like to quote from, and then hit the reply button when you're done.

haha, never knew this before.... I love those moments when you discover something new with something you have been using for ages. Like the other day i discovered tetris on the tv at home in the menu section.

Anyways back on topic

Bards

A few qutoes from today's Irish Examiner

http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/nra-hopes-to-build-m20-over-two-phases-124467.html

"THE National Roads Authority hopes to build the 80km motorway linking Limerick with Cork over two phases at an estimated cost of €800 million."


"So the best case scenario for the NRA is that the full Cork-Limerick motorway – which will form part of the 200km Atlantic Corridor – will be open by 2018."

CerebralCortex

Bards wrote: »

A few qutoes from today's Irish Examiner

http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/nra-hopes-to-build-m20-over-two-phases-124467.html

"THE National Roads Authority hopes to build the 80km motorway linking Limerick with Cork over two phases at an estimated cost of €800 million."


"So the best case scenario for the NRA is that the full Cork-Limerick motorway – which will form part of the 200km Atlantic Corridor – will be open by 2018."

2018! WTF!

Aidan1

If they're lucky! Capital funds are going to be really really scarce over the coming years, and the two Dublin public transport projects (which have to be built) will take up a lot of that.

I gather the forthcoming NSS Update will suggest that the core Atlantic corridor (Galway-Cork) be bolstered though, which should strengthen the strategic rationale for this projects.

Similarly, it will also support other initiatives in the planning area to restrict rezoning by County Councillors in outlying towns, and focus it in the cities. Which suggests to me that the NRA didn't 'ignore' the zoning in Buttevant, they just were aware that (a) national policy has shifted decisively against this type of development, (b) this type of zoned land is exactly the type likely to be de-zoned in the near future, and (c) that Buttevant is therefore highly unlikely to grow significantly (if at all) over the coming years.