M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

Cosmo Kramer

The deeper the approaching recession appears to be getting, the further away projects like this are looking.

Home working through the Covid 19 crisis will likely be a game changer. People will realise that they have been wasting their time commuting for hours five days a week when they could have been far more productive working from home.

With this in mind it is likely that the future regeneration or rural Ireland will be through making sure that every property in the country has access to high speed internet, taking the pressure off the cities in terms of traffic and housing so that the quality of roads becomes less of an issue, especially now that all the major routes to and from Dublin are virtually finished. There will be room for smaller schemes here and there but something like the M20 is for the birds at this stage I think.

serfboard

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

it is likely that the future regeneration [of] rural Ireland will be through making sure that every property in the country has access to high speed internet, taking the pressure off the cities in terms of traffic and housing so that the quality of roads becomes less of an issue, especially now that all the major routes to and from Dublin are virtually finished. There will be room for smaller schemes here and there but something like the M20 is for the birds at this stage I think.

Agree with the first part, disagree with the rest.

Our dispersed population, while disastrous for planning, will stand to us now, and I think you're right that it will make the NBP seem the right thing to do even more now.

However, we will still need access to the cities, and our dispersed car-dependant population will need (some) motorways to drive on since some of our current roads cannot and will not handle the traffic. Once they get to the outskirts of the cities, Park n' Rides will take them the rest of the way.

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

the quality of roads becomes less of an issue, especially now that all the major routes to and from Dublin are virtually finished.

So, feck Cork and Limerick then. Dublin's alright so that's grand?

In fact, to take your point further, you could argue that the current pandemic will make rail less of an issue, since we will not have masses of people commuting.

A2LUE42

I think this is actually becomming more of a requirement, with the low levels of credit interest available, it will be the cheapest possible way to build the road. It will also provide employment for productive work, rather than paying people not to work, when this ends.

marno21

Truck drivers also find working from home tricky

The need for the M20 will be unchanged by current circumstances

Bass Reeves

serfboard wrote: »

In fact, to take your point further, you could argue that the current pandemic will make rail less of an issue, since we will not have masses of people commuting.

If more people work it will increase the need for road infrastructure especially the N20. Most may still require to be on site 2-3 times a week, but this would mainly be meetings or specific work that may not be able to be done from home. Alot if this s commuting would be off peak when buses and trains timetables would not suit

Cork Trucker

marno21 wrote: »

Truck drivers also find working from home tricky

The need for the M20 will be unchanged by current circumstances

I’m on a self imposed break at the minute but have been approached to end it, the work is in Charleville, the thoughts of travelling that kip of a road day in day out several times is making me nauseous

hans aus dtschl

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

The deeper the approaching recession appears to be getting, the further away projects like this are looking.

Home working through the Covid 19 crisis will likely be a game changer. People will realise that they have been wasting their time commuting for hours five days a week when they could have been far more productive working from home.

With this in mind it is likely that the future regeneration or rural Ireland will be through making sure that every property in the country has access to high speed internet, taking the pressure off the cities in terms of traffic and housing so that the quality of roads becomes less of an issue, especially now that all the major routes to and from Dublin are virtually finished. There will be room for smaller schemes here and there but something like the M20 is for the birds at this stage I think.

I'm horrified to think that we're still seeing the phrase "quality of roads becomes less of an issue, especially now that all the major routes to and from Dublin are virtually finished". I, and my customers have no need or desire to go to Dublin with product.

The idea that we've primarily a service-led economy is incorrect. Arguably the Munster region has a higher need for motorway connectivity than Dublin has, since a high percentage of the people employed in the area are in manufacturing. Moving end product primarily by truck, is the big employer in Munster. No amount of remote working and connectivity cures this.

The centralisation idea that you're promoting whereby "Dublin's connected and that's probably enough" is the specific reason Dublin's now creaking at the seams. Why would a manufacturing company choose Limerick over Dublin in such a setup? Infrastructure and the ability to get your product to market quickly is very important or possibly critical. If the sales pitch for Limerick is that "you can get to Dublin" then they're at nothing. The company will locate in Dublin.

The government, to its credit, does appear to understand this.

I say all this as someone who tends to be anti-roads as a means of transport, as many on here will attest.

The idea that "roads are done, because you can get to Dublin"...I don't know what else to say...I'm horrified by it.

Cosmo Kramer

The importance of links to Dublin relates particularly to aviation and seaport links, obviously I know there are other air and sea ports but the main entry and exit point from the country, particularly in terms of air transport, is Dublin.

I'm not saying f**k Cork and Limerick, quite the opposite in fact. But both are already very well connected in terms of the motorway network, I'm not sure connecting the two together is as important as is being made out.

I absolutely agree that Dublin is creaking as a result of overdevelopment, but ultimately it is up to government to incentivise businesses and people to locate elsewhere, a billion euro or whatever for the M20 could be much better spent on other projects in the regions in my opinion.

Obviously not what you want to read if you use the road regularly and are sick of getting stuck behind trucks and tractors but from a more unbiased perspective I think the money could be better spent in rural Ireland.

Idbatterim

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

The deeper the approaching recession appears to be getting, the further away projects like this are looking.

Home working through the Covid 19 crisis will likely be a game changer. People will realise that they have been wasting their time commuting for hours five days a week when they could have been far more productive working from home.

With this in mind it is likely that the future regeneration or rural Ireland will be through making sure that every property in the country has access to high speed internet, taking the pressure off the cities in terms of traffic and housing so that the quality of roads becomes less of an issue, especially now that all the major routes to and from Dublin are virtually finished. There will be room for smaller schemes here and there but something like the M20 is for the birds at this stage I think.

true. there are projects that should be reviewed. But the M20 should go ahead. I think the ECB are going to lending at negative rates, it is idiocy to not borrow, keep people in jobs and deliver badly needed infrastructure! Agreed about remote working as in, some definitely wont be working office based again or reduce days they are doing it. I think this will even change peoples perception of quality of life etc. I mean unless you are desperate for the money, if you can ditch expense of a car you need for work, reduce days etc, not pay the marginal tax rate. I would say an awful lot of people were breaking their balls, for a marginally better financial outcome, but a far worse work / life balance one...

snotboogie

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

The importance of links to Dublin relates particularly to aviation and seaport links, obviously I know there are other air and sea ports but the main entry and exit point from the country, particularly in terms of air transport, is Dublin.

I'm not saying f**k Cork and Limerick, quite the opposite in fact. But both are already very well connected in terms of the motorway network, I'm not sure connecting the two together is as important as is being made out.

I absolutely agree that Dublin is creaking as a result of overdevelopment, but ultimately it is up to government to incentivise businesses and people to locate elsewhere, a billion euro or whatever for the M20 could be much better spent on other projects in the regions in my opinion.

Obviously not what you want to read if you use the road regularly and are sick of getting stuck behind trucks and tractors but from a more unbiased perspective I think the money could be better spent in rural Ireland.

How???

Mc Love

snotboogie wrote: »

How???

Shuttle buses for all the people that want to go to the pub

serfboard

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

I'm not sure connecting [Cork And Limerick] together is as important as is being made out.

Obviously this all opinion stuff, but the M20 is the most important outstanding road project in the country, IMO. I'd even put it ahead of a road that I would benefit from, the Galway Bypass.

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

a billion euro or whatever for the M20 could be much better spent on other projects in the regions in my opinion.
...
I think the money could be better spent in rural Ireland.

Can you give us some examples of what you're talking about?

Sam Russell

serfboard wrote: »

Obviously this all opinion stuff, but the M20 is the most important outstanding road project in the country, IMO. I'd even put it ahead of a road that I would benefit from, the Galway Bypass.

Can you give us some examples of what you're talking about?

Mod: Can we keep this to M20, not Rural v Dublin.

Cork Trucker

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Those wires frighten the S out of me. They have absolutely no place in the middle of a road.

A Garda motorcyclist hit them in 2017, there was a good bit of blood on the road, thankfully he survived.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/garda-motorcyclist-seriously-injured-in-crash-near-mallow-808599.html

serfboard

<snip>

Do not comment on Mod instructions.

hans aus dtschl

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

The importance of links to Dublin relates particularly to aviation and seaport links, obviously I know there are other air and sea ports but the main entry and exit point from the country, particularly in terms of air transport, is Dublin.

I'm not saying f**k Cork and Limerick, quite the opposite in fact. But both are already very well connected in terms of the motorway network, I'm not sure connecting the two together is as important as is being made out.

I absolutely agree that Dublin is creaking as a result of overdevelopment, but ultimately it is up to government to incentivise businesses and people to locate elsewhere, a billion euro or whatever for the M20 could be much better spent on other projects in the regions in my opinion.

Obviously not what you want to read if you use the road regularly and are sick of getting stuck behind trucks and tractors but from a more unbiased perspective I think the money could be better spent in rural Ireland.

Again, I don't think you understand the needs of the area. People in Limerick and Cork don't want to move product via Dublin, they'd rather move it via Shannon, Foynes, Cork and Rosslare. The N20 is the most important missing corridor. In terms of air transport, Shannon is handling freight at the moment. In terms of personal travel, many Cork business people fly via Heathrow and Schiphol rather than Dublin. Dublin is not a convenient airport for Munster people.

I don't use the road regularly at all, thankfully. But I use it enough to know that it's one of the most urgently needed pieces of transport infrastructure in the country. I also know that it has an extremely high benefit:cost ratio.

As I say, I don't think you understand the context for this. It is not about people being stuck behind trucks and tractors on their commute as an inconvenience. This is about product not making it to the market because the N20 has once again been shut down. There's a big difference between what's convenient and what's needed. Munster needs a lot of very basic connectivity. By all means invest in rail instead, but it would cost a lot more money to achieve what the M20 would.

This road is being treated like some kind of white elephant project, but it is not one. I am often high up the queue in criticising new roads projects, particularly those local to me. The M20 is not one of these.

blindsider

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

The importance of links to Dublin relates particularly to aviation and seaport links, obviously I know there are other air and sea ports but the main entry and exit point from the country, particularly in terms of air transport, is Dublin.

I'm not saying f**k Cork and Limerick, quite the opposite in fact. But both are already very well connected in terms of the motorway network, I'm not sure connecting the two together is as important as is being made out.

I absolutely agree that Dublin is creaking as a result of overdevelopment, but ultimately it is up to government to incentivise businesses and people to locate elsewhere, a billion euro or whatever for the M20 could be much better spent on other projects in the regions in my opinion.

Obviously not what you want to read if you use the road regularly and are sick of getting stuck behind trucks and tractors but from a more unbiased perspective I think the money could be better spent in rural Ireland.

A Cork-Limerick hub is the only realistic counter balance to Dublin.

Unless you use the road regularly, it is hard to understand how isolated from each other they actually are.

If I had a meeting in Limerick, I would need to leave 2 hrs door to door. If a meeting lasts 1 hr, then in total that's 5 hrs. Pretty much a working day.

People avoid doing business between Cork and Limerick because of this.

Don't forget there's no direct rail link either!

donvito99

blindsider wrote: »

Don't forget there's no direct rail link either!

Is a direct link necessary? There are barely any direct Dublin - Limerick services and despite that the service is more than adequate.

serfboard

blindsider wrote: »

Unless you use the road regularly, it is hard to understand how isolated from each other they actually are.

If I had a meeting in Limerick, I would need to leave 2 hrs door to door.

Blarney to Patrickswell is 80km and that journey takes 67 minutes at the moment, according to Google Maps. As we know, it can often take far longer than that.

With a motorway, that journey time is 40 minutes. Furthermore, there will be almost zero fatailities on the new road, an often over-looked benefit.

Chris_5339762

Put it this way... Cobh to Shannon Airport is coming up on Google at 2hrs 8 minutes. For 148km. Thats tragic. And thats on a day with absolutely no traffic whatsoever.

serfboard

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Put it this way... Cobh to Shannon Airport is coming up on Google at 2hrs 8 minutes. For 148km. Thats tragic. And thats on a day with absolutely no traffic whatsoever.

By way of comparison, Athlone to Shannon Airport, a journey of 142km, is shown as 1hr 25 minutes.

Bass Reeves

serfboard wrote: »

By way of comparison, Athlone to Shannon Airport, a journey of 142km, is shown as 1hr 25 minutes.

Is that via Nenagh or Ennis, I presume Nenagh. Not great road for a good stretch either only saving grace is it is s quite road

Cookiemunster

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Is that via Nenagh or Ennis, I presume Nenagh. Not great road for a good stretch either only saving grace is it is s quite road

You'd go Shannon to Athlone via the M18 and M6.

Reputable Rog

donvito99 wrote: »

Is a direct link necessary? There are barely any direct Dublin - Limerick services and despite that the service is more than adequate.

Irish Rail have admitted that more direct services to Limerick would see a huge increase in passenger numbers.

Bass Reeves

Cookiemunster wrote: »

You'd go Shannon to Athlone via the M18 and M6.

No but sometimes your sat Nav will try to send you that way

Bass Reeves

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Irish Rail have admitted that more direct services to Limerick would see a huge increase in passenger numbers.

But would it be commercially viable. Bus services are so frequent and cheaper hard for trains to compete

Reputable Rog

Bass Reeves wrote: »

But would it be commercially viable. Bus services are so frequent and cheaper hard for trains to compete

If its viable to Galway it’s viable to Limerick. The train is generally more reliable and not prone to a fender bender on the motorway.
You also get a better behaved passenger on the train.

Leonard Hofstadter

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

I'm not saying f**k Cork and Limerick, quite the opposite in fact. But both are already very well connected in terms of the motorway network, I'm not sure connecting the two together is as important as is being made out.

You obviously know nothing about Cork if you think our country's second city is 'well connected' in terms of the motorway network.

Let's take going to Limerick, just a few km of dual carriageway outside of Cork (with a speed limit of only 100 km/h, not the full 120 like you get on a motorway), and the last few km between Patrickswell and Limerick. Between Mallow and Croom, it is of such poor quality it wouldn't even pass as the principal route between a second and third city in the third world.

The next most important location is Waterford, and there we have no motorway whatosever, there is maybe 10 km of good quality dual carriageway out to Carrigtwohill, and a proper 120 km/h speed limit, of course it remains a dual carriageway as far as Midleton, but it's reduced quality and only 100 km/h speed limit. Fair enough Youghal and Dungarvan are bypassed, but Youghal is only a single carriageway and Dungarvan is a glorified ring road, so of course it's better than going through the town, but it's not exactly quick, and obviously between Dungarvan and Youghal has some very poor stretches, too. Meanwhile, between Midleton and Youghal we have bottlenecks like Castlemartyr.

Then we have Tralee, again there are some good bits, and there is no doubt that the road is going to get significantly better between Macroom and Ballyvourney/Ballymakera once they are bypassed, but it is really not good between Cork and Tralee overall, fair enough you've got the Ballincollig bypass with a proper 120 km/h speed limit, and the south ring road flyovers, and there is a fine wide road beyond Ballyvourney for a while heading towards Killarney but again the road could do with some improvement; Killarney is just a relief road and isn't a proper bypass at all, Farranfore won't be bypassed any time soon and the road between Lissarda and Macroom won't be improved any time soon either, and it is poor in places.

West Cork has only a few km of dual carriageway and really it's poor after that, the odd good bit here and there but the reality is it's going to remain the way it is now for the next 20 years at least, with the pseudo 'bypass' of Bandon, being stuck in Inishannon and narrow stretches of road around Clonakilty and other parts of West Cork.

Then we have the N28, yes there is a motorway in planning but goodness knows when that will finally get the green light (admittedly not the Government's fault), the one thing that does give me hope for this being seen through even if the dreaded Greens make up the next Government is the fact that it's an EU directive to improve access to ports so basically it has to be built by 2030 and I'm sure even the idiotic Greens can see the benefit of using road transport over water for carbon emissions; the M28 is after all vital so the port can be relocated to Ringaskiddy.

Finally, we have Cork's ring road, note my use of the word 'road' as opposed to 'roads', since we only have one. That as we know is creaking at the seams in places, the road is desperately under capacity on the Douglas stretch but there's no easy solution to that and we're still waiting for the Dunkettle flyover to start construction (over 15 months late now).

So when we have the motorway to Limerick (with the added benefit of giving us a full motorway all the way up to Tuam), dual carriageway/motorway all the way to Waterford, dual carriageway to Macroom and 2+2 thereafter, the M28, the flyovers done, the North Ring Road (to motorway standards), a dual carriageway to Bandon and as far as Skibbereen bypassed, then I'll believe you when you say that Cork is well served by road.

Until then, we're way short of where the country's second biggest city, with over 400,000 people living within a 15 km radius of Pana, needs to be.

Deedsie

donvito99 wrote: »

Is a direct link necessary? There are barely any direct Dublin - Limerick services and despite that the service is more than adequate.

Its not adequate. Its poor and needs investment. The Ballybrophy Nenagh Limerick... Limerick - Ennis and Limerick - Cork lines should be invested in and upgraded.

The M20 should still be built. It is desperately needed

Isambard

Deedsie wrote: »

Its not adequate. Its poor and needs investment. The Ballybrophy Nenagh Limerick... Limerick - Ennis and Limerick - Cork lines should be invested in and upgraded.

The M20 should still be built. It is desperately needed

i agree and the prriority that could be quite cheaply done would be to extend the shuttles to Cork, with new intermediate stations and a service designed to connect in and out of the intercities. More direct Dublin to Limerick trains too would be a no-brainer.

No going to happen for decades though as we won't have any money for many years now.