M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

marno21

Isambard wrote: »

the rail station in Cork is quite a trek from, perhaps a bus p+r would be more popular. The Blackash one is quite accessible on the quays

Two of the biggest office blocks in the city about to open beside the train station. Planning permission approved for another 8 storey block beside the ones under construction. The Prism under construction across the river.

Might need re-evaluation for 2020.

Bass Reeves

marno21 wrote: »

Two of the biggest office blocks in the city about to open beside the train station. Planning permission approved for another 8 storey block beside the ones under construction. The Prism under construction across the river.

Might need re-evaluation for 2020.

Are some of the floors residential

hans aus dtschl

Yeah look I think we all know the Blackpool station is a good idea, and a Blarney area P&R too.
These are all in CMATS and aren't incompatible with the M20. They're not competing, or shouldn't be.

Cork Trucker

All the businesses in Blackpool paid into a pit so to speak to find a station in Kilbarry, one car repair shop there paid €8k towards it as it was obligatory under council rules, the council says they won’t refund the money and yer man Flynn is meant to be rightly useless? I only ever heard of his father and brother.

Cork Trucker

Here we go.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/eamon-ryan-a-broad-range-of-new-taxes-to-fund-post-covid-recovery-1003904.html

Mr Ryan confirmed there was “broad agreement” among the parties that the NDP should be revised, given the reduced funds available, changed costs and climate action targets. This could take half a year, he said, and road projects, including the M20 Cork to Limerick scheme and the national children's hospital, could be reconsidered

db

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Here we go.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/eamon-ryan-a-broad-range-of-new-taxes-to-fund-post-covid-recovery-1003904.html

Someone needs to tell this nutcase that he will cost people their lives. Every year this road is delayed more people will die and if Ryan gets the motorway cancelled he will be directly responsible.

Years ago on the N4 from Maynooth to Kinnegad there were white crosses erected along the road to show how many had died. Something similar needs to be done on the N20.

Sam Russell

db wrote: »

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Here we go.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/eamon-ryan-a-broad-range-of-new-taxes-to-fund-post-covid-recovery-1003904.html

Someone needs to tell this nutcase that he will cost people their lives. Every year this road is delayed more people will die and if Ryan gets the motorway cancelled he will be directly responsible.

Years ago on the N4 from Maynooth to Kinnegad there were white crosses erected along the road to show how many had died. Something similar needs to be done on the N20.

There are a few projects that need to go ahead come what may, whatever Ryan says. If he is talking about speeding some up - great, but I assume he wants to get his crayon set out again.

The M20, the Metrolink, Dart expansion, and the Luas extension to Finglas are all needed asap.

The Children's hospital is too far advanced to cancel or even change. Putting a deep car park underneath it was nuts and has upped the cost beyond reason.

The M20 is needed to make the road safer, and to provide bypasses for the town between Cork and Limerick on the N20. Those bypasses will be needed anyway, and will not be cheaper built as standalone bypasses.

Ryan's attempt at a crayon wielding redesign of the Metrolink was an abysmal demonstration at his ineptitude as a political leader. He gave another demonstration whith his speech in the Dail on Covid19 on growing lettuce on windowsills.

What planet is this guy on?

serfboard

Eamon Ryan wrote:

You could also look at, as well as making the road safe, really high-speed rail connection [between] Cork and Limerick.

So Eamon, you're going to do an oul' patchwork, bad-bend eliminating job are you? That still leaves the towns with the traffic in them? Oh no, you're going to bypass the towns as well? So you're going to do a bad-bend eliminating, town-bypassing half-assed job?

FFS, will you wake up? The safest thing to do is an 80km motorway between Blarney and Patrickswell. That's what's needed. And guess what Eamon? Public transport, known as "buses", can travel on that motorway.

And you're going to build a "really high-speed" railway between Cork and Limerick, before building one between Cork and Dublin? Or Dublin and Belfast? Or is it after you build those other two?

Holy fúck, this guy is clueless. Just seems to toss out whatever ideas pop into his head without any thinking about them.

I don't know anything about Catherine Martin, but surely to God, she has to be better than this guy.

You'd also have to wonder whether we'll have a government at all. I can't see Green Party members going along with whatever he's agreed in his discussions with the "senior hurlers" of FG & FF.

Frostybrew

serfboard wrote: »

So Eamon, you're going to do an oul' patchwork, bad-bend eliminating job are you? That still leaves the towns with the traffic in them? Oh no, you're going to bypass the towns as well? So you're going to do a bad-bend eliminating, town-bypassing half-assed job?

FFS, will you wake up? The safest thing to do is an 80km motorway between Blarney and Patrickswell. That's what's needed. And guess what Eamon? Public transport, known as "buses", can travel on that motorway.

And you're going to build a "really high-speed" railway between Cork and Limerick, before building one between Cork and Dublin? Or Dublin and Belfast? Or is it after you build those other two?

Holy fúck, this guy is clueless. Just seems to toss out whatever ideas pop into his head without any thinking about them.

I don't know anything about Catherine Martin, but surely to God, she has to be better than this guy.

You'd also have to wonder whether we'll have a government at all. I can't see Green Party members going along with whatever he's agreed in his discussions with the "senior hurlers" of FG & FF.

Not to mention his best bet to get high speed rail built between the two cities would be to do it as part of an M20 build and take advantage of the economies of scale that an all in one project would allow for. Or even go further and electrify Charleville to Mallow and the Cork Suburban Network and have an even greater overall saving in construction costs.

This would also cover a significant part of the Cork to Dublin electrification. It also allows for front loading a large part of CMATS, something he is also suggesting.

Bass Reeves

Frostybrew wrote: »

Not to mention his best bet to get high speed rail built between the two cities would be to do it as part of an M20 build and take advantage of the economies of scale that an all in one project would allow for. Or even go further and electrify Charleville to Mallow and the Cork Suburban Network and have an even greater overall saving in construction costs.

This would also cover a significant part of the Cork to Dublin electrification. It also allows for front loading a large part of CMATS, something he is also suggesting.

There is not the amount of people traveling between the two cities to justify a high speed train. All that would happen is you would have a service every two hours. Commuters want trains at least every 30minnutes if they are going to use them to commute. If you end up either an hour early for work or an hour late in the evening you will look at other options.

At present there is 22k journey's/day on the N 20 most originate on the N20 going to the cities at either end. Most people will not be going to either city center so will need a bust for the last 1-5k. A train service will not work for them. Set up quality bus corridors and put a top notch bus service between the cities and from Mallow and Charlesville to Cork-Limerick

mdmix

Bass Reeves wrote: »

There is not the amount of people traveling between the two cities to justify a high speed train. All that would happen is you would have a service every two hours. Commuters want trains at least every 30minnutes if they are going to use them to commute. If you end up either an hour early for work or an hour late in the evening you will look at other options.

At present there is 22k journey's/day on the N 20 most originate on the N20 going to the cities at either end. Most people will not be going to either city center so will need a bust for the last 1-5k. A train service will not work for them. Set up quality bus corridors and put a top notch bus service between the cities and from Mallow and Charlesville to Cork-Limerick

If the timings are increased as you have suggested then more people will take the train - which is what the greens are suggesting. Bus connects will be in place in both cities long before the m20 could be built, meaning train/bus would be quicker than car.

Frostybrew

Bass Reeves wrote: »

There is not the amount of people traveling between the two cities to justify a high speed train. All that would happen is you would have a service every two hours. Commuters want trains at least every 30minnutes if they are going to use them to commute. If you end up either an hour early for work or an hour late in the evening you will look at other options.

At present there is 22k journey's/day on the N 20 most originate on the N20 going to the cities at either end. Most people will not be going to either city center so will need a bust for the last 1-5k. A train service will not work for them. Set up quality bus corridors and put a top notch bus service between the cities and from Mallow and Charlesville to Cork-Limerick

Certainly not at the moment as transport links between the two cities, both rail and road, are very poor. With a motorway and a direct rail link, you have the potential to increase travel considerably. Indeed a high speed rail service with an operational speed of 140 to 160mph would have the potential to transform travel patterns between the two cities, and allow Limerick to become a commuter city for Cork and vice versa. Journey times at these speeds would be only 30 to 40 mins. Being able to market the line as both a commuter line and an intercity line would allow a sufficient level of patronage for it to be a viable long term proposition.

There are a number of factors which could make this scenario a possibility.

Building it as part of the M20 project allows for economies of scale.

The topography between Charleville and Limerick is relatively flat which would make rail construction straight forward and relatively cheap.

The distance between Charleville and Limerick is small (about 27km to the Foynes line and 37km to Limerick city centre), so it would be a short stretch of new track.

Intercity rolling stock will be due for an upgrade from 2025 onwards so this is a cost that will be incurred regardless of whether a line is constructed or not.

Likewise the Cork to Dublin line will be electrified in the medium term another cost that will be incurred regardless.

The location of Kent Station is ideal, as it is at the centre of the Docklands development; putting 35000 potential new jobs (and possibly many more) within walking distance of the service.

Construction costs would be a fraction of previous high speed lines as it mainly passes through low density farmland.

For the reasons outlined above, a high speed rail line between Cork and Limerick is probably the most likely to come to fruition on the island of Ireland. What's needed now is a more in depth examination of variables to discover whether it is plausible. It appears that this will now be a part of the M20 corridor section process north of Charleville, a most welcome development.

Reputable Rog

mdmix wrote: »

If the timings are increased as you have suggested then more people will take the train - which is what the greens are suggesting. Bus connects will be in place in both cities long before the m20 could be built, meaning train/bus would be quicker than car.

Limerick is nowhere near developing Bus Connects also it’s not an inter city project.
In addition the road needs to be significantly improved or replaced to all for competitive bus times.

Bass Reeves

mdmix wrote: »

If the timings are increased as you have suggested then more people will take the train - which is what the greens are suggesting. Bus connects will be in place in both cities long before the m20 could be built, meaning train/bus would be quicker than car.

There is a assumption by people promoting rail travel that if the service is there people will use it. The assumption is false. Take Ennis Limerick we have a rail but the rail times are brutal. There is one train in the morning commuter time leaing Ennis at 7,45 and arriving in Limerick at 8.25. The only return in the evening is at 18.05. If you are unable to get this next one is at 19.50. For a person working in retail with hours of 9.30-6 its is impossible for them to make the evening service at 18.05. If they use the rail service there commute starts at 7.45 and finishes at 20.30 give yourself 15 minutes to get home and its a 13 hour 15 minnute day.

here is the bus time table
https://getthere.ie/ennis-limerick/18-Jun

With the level of bus service I expect that there is an obivious demand. Dublin Coach has a 45 minnute service. Bus Eireann still operates a stop everwhere solution

Isambard

most journeys do not start "on" the N20, they start some way either side of it (in my case 25km). So to use the train and bus connects would involve an initial car journey and take all day. Of very little use to the vast majority of people. The M20 is what is needed.

Bass Reeves

Isambard wrote: »

most journeys do not start "on" the N20, they start some way either side of it (in my case 25km). So to use the train and bus connects would involve an initial car journey and take all day. Of very little use to the vast majority of people. The M20 is what is needed.

At some stage the N20 will have to be seriously upgraded. The assumption that rail is a solution is also deeply flawed. Even if we got the mushroom of a high speed rail line. It highly unlikey a HSR link would be put in place. It would have to be two lines and all the way in and out of Limerick. Limerick/Foynes is a single line and I fairy sure there is not the capability to increase the Patrickwell-Limerick section with a double line.

However the push for rail solution is not factoring in Electric cars. Unless people change to having no cars rail will not offer a solution where commuters must complete the first part of the journey by car. The economic of car travel will completely change. Any tax will be physically on the car not on the fuel source. Therefore if you own a car and start the journey by car completing the journey has little extra cost. Even with present combustion engines commuters make that choice at present

mdmix

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Limerick is nowhere near developing Bus Connects also it’s not an inter city project.

The limerick east/west corridor was being planned before bus connects was a thing. The east/west corridor will need to be completed before the rest of bus connects, which has a targeted to be finished by 2027. The m20 could not be completed before 2027 in even the best case scenario.

I suggested train for intercity and bus for final leg, if needed.

Bass Reeves

mdmix wrote: »

The limerick east/west corridor was being planned before bus connects was a thing. The east/west corridor will need to be completed before the rest of bus connects, which has a targeted to be finished by 2027. The m20 could not be completed before 2027 in even the best case scenario.

I suggested train for intercity and bus for final leg, if needed.

If a person has a car, as especially we are looking at electric cars being common by 2027, people will not change to a double/treble hob solution when the extra cost with electric cars will be minimal

donvito99

Bass Reeves wrote: »

If a person has a car, as especially we are looking at electric cars being common by 2027, people will not change to a double/treble hob solution when the extra cost with electric cars will be minimal

Why does it matter if the car is electric? An electric car should not make a commute by car/train either more or less palatable.

Reputable Rog

If it’s not built I don’t think any FF/FG TD in Cork East, N.C, NW, Kerry or Limerick County will be able to use the Greens as an excuse for not building it.
Therefore I think the M20 might survive the programme for government .

gifted

Bass Reeves wrote: »

If a person has a car, as especially we are looking at electric cars being common by 2027, people will not change to a double/treble hob solution when the extra cost with electric cars will be minimal

Unless the price of an electric car is going to be slashed by a serious amount then I wonder will they be that common?

BelfastVanMan

Reputable Rog wrote: »

If it’s not built I don’t think any FF/FG TD in Cork East, N.C, NW, Kerry or Limerick County will be able to use the Greens as an excuse for not building it.
Therefore I think the M20 might survive the programme for government .

I hope you're right. :-)

Cookiemunster

gifted wrote: »

Unless the price of an electric car is going to be slashed by a serious amount then I wonder will they be that common?

As they get more numerous the price will reduce along with the EU proposing banning VAT on EVs. That plus virtually every EU country has banned the sale if ICE cars by sometime during the 2030s.

Bass Reeves

donvito99 wrote: »

Why does it matter if the car is electric? An electric car should not make a commute by car/train either more or less palatable.

The cost in electric cars will mainly be first day cost. Actual running costs will be substantially lower than ICE vehicles. What people promoting rail fail to factor in is that if commuters have to travel to a.park and ride situation unless the public transport takes them direct to work they will not use it.

The whole flaw that factored into rail is frequency and destination. If a commuter has to travel to Charlesville or Mallow to access rail transport and have to use bus or other PT to get them to work they will complete the journey with thee car. Electric cars if you own one will make this more economical than ICE vehicles.

mdmix

Bass Reeves wrote: »

If a person has a car, as especially we are looking at electric cars being common by 2027, people will not change to a double/treble hob solution when the extra cost with electric cars will be minimal

people will choose the fastest route possible. well I suppose if we all buy an EV today and keep it for the rest of our lives then you're probably right

Cookiemunster

mdmix wrote: »

people will choose the fastest route possible. well I suppose if we all buy an EV today and keep it for the rest of our lives then you're probably right

The fasted route possible is via car and that won't change if you have to drive to a P&R, then get the train to Kent or Colbert Stations and then get a bus to your final destination.

The vast majority of people commuting to Limerick don't work anywhere near the city center as seen by the M7 around the city having 50K journeys every day

Bass Reeves

Cookiemunster wrote: »

The fasted route possible is via car and that won't change if you have to drive to a P&R, then get the train to Kent or Colbert Stations and then get a bus to your final destination.

The vast majority of people commuting to Limerick don't work anywhere near the city center as seen by the M7 around the city having 50K journeys every day

People just cannot seem to grasp that fact, UL is out one side of the city, near that but still 1-2km away are the factories based in Pleassy, over the far side of the city you have the regional hospital and a couple KM form that is Raheen industrial estate and a km in the other direction nearer the city is the Cresent shopping center is it the 2nd biggest in Ireland. The city center itself is a mishmash of small offices, residential area and small shops. 25km away you have Shannon with the airport and another industrial estate. Dotted all over the city are small businesses. Colbert station is 500m from the center itself and from any other economic activity.

As the Dingleman said to the Yank looking for directions to Donegal ''I wouldn't start here''

spacetweek

Developed countries should have good quality road and rail, not road or rail.
A lot of the discussion on this thread is very adversarial, all people arguing against one and for the other.
Many of the people using an improved (I agree HSR is overkill) railway won't be commuters so location of industrial estates is irrelevant.
As for UL, in any properly run city a destination 1-2 km from the centre would be reachable by bus in a matter of minutes. Not in Ireland.

Bass Reeves

spacetweek wrote: »

Developed countries should have good quality road and rail, not road or rail.
A lot of the discussion on this thread is very adversarial, all people arguing against one and for the other.
Many of the people using an improved (I agree HSR is overkill) railway won't be commuters so location of industrial estates is irrelevant.
As for UL, in any properly run city a destination 1-2 km from the centre would be reachable by bus in a matter of minutes. Not in Ireland.

UL gate is 5 KM from the city center, the main buildings are another kilometre, Pleassy is another 1+km further on. the gate of Raheen Industrial estate is a fairly similar situation. People proposing commuter solutions should be familiar with the layout of where they are proposing it for

mikeym

No wonder the Green Party dont have Td's in Cork and Kerry.

I cant see the M20 getting developed and Eamon Ryan will have blood on his hands.