M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

Cookiemunster

spacetweek wrote: »

Developed countries should have good quality road and rail, not road or rail.
A lot of the discussion on this thread is very adversarial, all people arguing against one and for the other.
Many of the people using an improved (I agree HSR is overkill) railway won't be commuters so location of industrial estates is irrelevant.
As for UL, in any properly run city a destination 1-2 km from the centre would be reachable by bus in a matter of minutes. Not in Ireland.

I agree that Limerick and Cork should have a better rail connection, but the thing is that this is the M20 thread and mdmix would prefer a rail solution rather than a road upgrade.
Even after it's been explained multiple times that the vast majority of traffic is neither point to point nor heading to the city centers, so wouldn't use said rail service.

Isambard

rail has two strong points:

long distance Inter City (which we can't do properly currently due to the necessity of having multiple stops)

and

Commuter (which relies on moving large numbers of people from densely populated Suburbs to large City centres with lots of concentrated jobs).

we're limited in scope on both counts.

Rail cannot serve the N20 hinterland efficently, a decent road is what is required.

serfboard

I would have no major objection if the Green Party input to the M20 involved providing a railway line from Charleville to Patrickswell alongside the new M20.

But it looks like the Green Party want to get the M20 stopped - and that is not going to happen.

mikeym

Whats the point in building a railway line from Limerick to Cork when technically both Cities can be accessed by going through Limerick Junction.

The Green Party will be pulling the plug on the M20 when they get into the dirty coalition.

Isambard

mikeym wrote: »

Whats the point in building a railway line from Limerick to Cork when technically both Cities can be accessed by going through Limerick Junction.

It's a pipe dream, I've said it before but a decent service, Cork to Limerick, interchanging with other routes at the Junction would be far better value, much cheaper and could be instigated almost immediately.

Sam Russell

Isambard wrote: »

mikeym wrote: »

Whats the point in building a railway line from Limerick to Cork when technically both Cities can be accessed by going through Limerick Junction.

It's a pipe dream, I've said it before but a decent service, Cork to Limerick, interchanging with other routes at the Junction would be far better value, much cheaper and could be instigated almost immediately.

Is the line from Limerick Junction to Limerick single track?

If it is, it would need to be double tracked, or at least it needs to have passing loops added.

marno21

Sam Russell wrote: »

Is the line from Limerick Junction to Limerick single track?

If it is, it would need to be double tracked, or at least it needs to have passing loops added.

It’s double track from Limerick to just before Killonan Junction where the line to Ballybrophy diverges

It’s single beyond that to Limerick Junction

Sam Russell

marno21 wrote: »

It’s double track from Limerick to just before Killonan Junction where the line to Ballybrophy diverges

It’s single beyond that to Limerick Junction

How far is that? (Limerick to just before Killonan)

I was looking at Google maps, but the photo quality is abysmal. It does not look as though the alignment allows for double tracking, but it is difficult to tell. Also there are lots of level crossings.

riddlinrussell

Sam Russell wrote: »

How far is that? (Limerick to just before Killonan)

I was looking at Google maps, but the photo quality is abysmal. It does not look as though the alignment allows for double tracking, but it is difficult to tell. Also there are lots of level crossings.

I would definitely say that dual tracking this section/new dual line from Limerick Junction to Limerick (whichever is more useful) would be a far better use of money than re-activating the M20 adjacent line.

Reputable Rog

Sam Russell wrote: »

How far is that? (Limerick to just before Killonan)

I was looking at Google maps, but the photo quality is abysmal. It does not look as though the alignment allows for double tracking, but it is difficult to tell. Also there are lots of level crossings.

4 and 1/4 miles.

Reputable Rog

Reading the Business Post yesterday, they were reporting that the M20 will go ahead.

alias no.9

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Reading the Business Post yesterday, they were reporting that the M20 will go ahead.

Anything else is a false economy. Almost the entire length from Blarney to Patrickswell needs to be replaced. Online upgrades could end up costing as much and still need replacing from the day that they open.

Leonard Hofstadter

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Reading the Business Post yesterday, they were reporting that the M20 will go ahead.

I'd love to believe this is true but the Programme for Government has no specific commitments on any roads being built. With a 2:1 spend on public transport as a bare minimum, it would want to be one heck of a budget to get the M20 done along with roads maintenance.

marno21

Leonard Hofstadter wrote: »

I'd love to believe this is true but the Programme for Government has no specific commitments on any roads being built. With a 2:1 spend on public transport as a bare minimum, it would want to be one heck of a budget to get the M20 done along with roads maintenance.

It’s unlikely that any large spending on the M20 apart from land purchase will take place in the lifetime of this Government.

Then again, there are few shovel ready public transport projects to soak up all the funding either so we’ll have to wait and see how this 2:1 ratio stuff works out.

Leonard Hofstadter

marno21 wrote: »

It’s unlikely that any large spending on the M20 apart from land purchase will take place in the lifetime of this Government.

Then again, there are few shovel ready public transport projects to soak up all the funding either so we’ll have to wait and see how this 2:1 ratio stuff works out.

Thanks Marno. Yes, that's what I don't get. Bus Connects, Metrolink, DART expansion are all years away. I've no issue with any of these being done, they absolutely do make sense, but there's a big need to sort out roads. The omission of any specific roads projects in the PfG is terrifying. It's not a 'victory' for FG or FF if the current ones in construction continue, to terminate those would mean paying off the contractors.

I mean, the M28 and M21 have to be done as part of TEN-T. No rational person could surely argue against doing the Dunkettle Interchange either. It's been discussed here many times, but Cork's road network is shocking for the country's second biggest city, third world road to Limerick, big bottlenecks on the Waterford road and also third world in places, Tralee is also poor in many parts, and the road to West Cork is dire also. The North Ring Road is still nothing but a pipe dream.

Outside of Cork, Waterford still has third world roads to Limerick (and Cork obviously), although the one to Rosslare is pretty decent now overall, while Limerick to Tralee/Killarney will still have many congestion blackspots even if Adare is done. Galway to Sligo is good as far as Tuam, the Knock/Claremorris bypass is also a high standard and obviously there is a dual carriageway coming into Sligo but the rest of it is also poor. Meanwhile, no sign of the Moycullen bypass and of course, the ring road is still desperately needed. Where is the space for Bus Connects going to come without moving all the unnecessary cars going into the city because of the lack of a bypass?

marno21

marno21 wrote: »

It’s unlikely that any large spending on the M20 apart from land purchase will take place in the lifetime of this Government.

Then again, there are few shovel ready public transport projects to soak up all the funding either so we’ll have to wait and see how this 2:1 ratio stuff works out.

Likely the strokestown bypass will be ready for construction next year.

I can't see the M20 getting passed the green unless its broken into a few sections, at least get some of it done or planning for it.

alias no.9

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Likely the strokestown bypass will be ready for construction next year.

I can't see the M20 getting passed the green unless its broken into a few sections, at least get some of it done or planning for it.

A sleight of hand might come in the form of a PPP where the state incurs little capital expense or spreads it over an extended period

Leonard Hofstadter

The PfG contains a line along the lines of recognising that roads will also be needed to connect communities. So maybe it will get done after all, but I'm still very doubtful, it's such a non-specific wishy washy statement.

JamesBond2010

At this stage we be lucky if our grandchildren get to see it built.

Sam Russell

alias no.9 wrote: »

A sleight of hand might come in the form of a PPP where the state incurs little capital expense or spreads it over an extended period

a PPP scheme would make no sense at the moment. The state can borrow at near zero interest rate, and can probably access EU funding, either as a grant or extended low interest loan to cover the cost.

This could be under a Covid19 scheme or a Brexit scheme. It could also be packaged as a rural Ireland scheme.

Pete_Cavan

Deleted User wrote: »

I can't see the M20 getting passed the green unless its broken into a few sections, at least get some of it done or planning for it.

It should have been split into sections years ago. The upgrade of 2+1 between Mallow and Cork has to happen anyway for safety reasons and wont be overly expensive, get that done first. South of Mallow to north of Buttevant is easily justifiable on traffic and safety grounds. At that stage, extending up to Patrickswell is a no brainer.

serfboard

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

It should have been split into sections years ago. The upgrade of 2+1 between Mallow and Cork has to happen anyway for safety reasons and wont be overly expensive, get that done first. South of Mallow to north of Buttevant is easily justifiable on traffic and safety grounds. At that stage, extending up to Patrickswell is a no brainer.

I'd be all for splitting it too, although I'd do it differently:

1. Patrickswell to Banoge north. The existing good section of road which I would do last.

2. Banoge north to Mallow North. A 40km section from the end of the existing Croom bypass to Mallow, bypassing both Charleville and Buttevant. The part of the road in most desperate need of being done, from a safety and congestion point of view.

3. Mallow to Blarney. Although this section carries the most traffic, I would still do it second, since the safety benefits of the previous section make it priority, IMO, and this section is not as bad.

serfboard

Sam Russell wrote: »

a PPP scheme would make no sense at the moment.

PPP schemes never make sense, IMO. It's borrowing (in the sense that we have an obligation to repay) that we pretend is not borrowing, and which we pay more for.

Sam Russell

serfboard wrote: »

PPP schemes never make sense, IMO. It's borrowing (in the sense that we have an obligation to repay) that we pretend is not borrowing, and which we pay more for.

Exactly, plus the PPP (Privatise the Public Purse) also transfers risk to the public purse while passing the profit to the private part. If it goes pear shaped the private part can walk away.

It was only a wheeze to help political friends and supporters.

Pete_Cavan

serfboard wrote: »

I'd be all for splitting it too, although I'd do it differently:

1. Patrickswell to Banoge north. The existing good section of road which I would do last.

2. Banoge north to Mallow North. A 40km section from the end of the existing Croom bypass to Mallow, bypassing both Charleville and Buttevant. The part of the road in most desperate need of being done, from a safety and congestion point of view.

3. Mallow to Blarney. Although this section carries the most traffic, I would still do it second, since the safety benefits of the previous section make it priority, IMO, and this section is not as bad.

I was thinking in terms of the 2+1 being an outdated road type which needs upgrading anyway, hence easily justifiable. It is also cheap to do, has minimal environmental impacts, less contentious, etc. Working north from there, each section done strengthens the case for the next. You could have motorway from Mallow to Blarney built in the time it takes for any other section to overcome the inevitable court challenges.

Pete_Cavan

Sam Russell wrote: »

Exactly, plus the PPP (Privatise the Public Purse) also transfers risk to the public purse while passing the profit to the private part. If it goes pear shaped the private part can walk away.

It was only a wheeze to help political friends and supporters.

The private part can't walk away from a PPP, you can't just terminate a contract. The private sector takes much more risk than under a standard contract, they have to maintain the asset for 25/30 years. In a standard contract, the defects liability period is generally 12 months and it is very difficult to prove latent defects after that.

People often say about the M3 and Limerick Tunnel PPPs that the government is subsidising the contractor but that is not true. All that is happening here is the government are using the tolls to offset payments to the contractor, the government still has to pay the cost of constructing the asset

Cookiemunster

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I was thinking in terms of the 2+1 being an outdated road type which needs upgrading anyway, hence easily justifiable. It is also cheap to do, has minimal environmental impacts, less contentious, etc. Working north from there, each section done strengthens the case for the next. You could have motorway from Mallow to Blarney built in the time it takes for any other section to overcome the inevitable court challenges.

You can't build a online motorway upgrade that way. You have to close all accesses, build junctions and provide an alternate route. The route would be under construction in different places constantly for years causing endless delays. It's not really feasible in small chunks.

The only feasible way to break it up is North and South of Mallow as was proposed in the original 00s plan.

irishfeen

Can’t see any mention of the M20 in the programme for government... I presume this is curtains for us in north Cork

Cookiemunster

irishfeen wrote: »

Can’t see any mention of the M20 in the programme for government... I presume this is curtains for us in north Cork

There's no mention of any individual road, but it does say "We will continue to invest in new roads infrastructure to ensure that all parts of Ireland are
connected to each other."

Seeing as the M20 would have been unlikely to be at construction stage during the life of this government anyway, I'd say it will continue through the design and planning process unhindered.

Pete_Cavan

Cookiemunster wrote: »

You can't build a online motorway upgrade that way. You have to close all accesses, build junctions and provide an alternate route. The route would be under construction in different places constantly for years causing endless delays. It's not really feasible in small chunks.

The only feasible way to break it up is North and South of Mallow as was proposed in the original 00s plan.

I know you have to grade separate junctions, provide alternative route, etc. It is still a lot easier, cheaper and less contentious than building motorway through countryside which is becoming increasingly difficult.

The online upgrade would be built the same way with extensive traffic management regardless of whether other sections of road further north are part of the contract or not.