M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

marno21

Lads this project hasn’t even had route options published yet. It’s at very minimum 4 years away from starting. A bit of perspective is needed here as the construction decision is so far away that it’s not worth dwelling on; there are many factors which will determine the outcome of this project and many of the important decisions are years away yet.

Let’s take it one step at a time.

Harry Palmr

It's a free hit for the Greens - "stopping" a road that isn't anywhere near the building stage.

Mc Love

They're not stopping anything

Leonard Hofstadter

Harry Palmr wrote: »

It's a free hit for the Greens - "stopping" a road that isn't anywhere near the building stage.

It's a classic Irish solution to an Irish problem. With the best will in the world, it was never going to even start construction until 2024 at the earliest. What I was worried about is that any work to get it to that stage was going to be stopped, and it won't. It will get to being 'shovel ready' during the lifetime of the next Government, which is all it was ever going to be anyway.

So FF and FG can correctly claim it's going ahead as planned, and will get it to the 'shovel ready' stage, and the Greens can correctly claim it's not being built on their watch (which it wasn't going to be anyway). Everyone wins:)!

Reputable Rog

Glencaum rest area near Rathduff is on Channel 4 tonight at 10:00pm.

cjpm

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Glencaum rest area near Rathduff is on Channel 4 tonight at 10:00pm.

They disturbed you while they were filming Rog??

Reputable Rog

cjpm wrote: »

They disturbed you while they were filming Rog??

Bastards. I actually remember driving from Cork to Mallow about 2.am one morning and driving through it and putting the lights on full for the craic, Bodies running everywhere, some craic.

Cork Trucker

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Bastards. I actually remember driving from Cork to Mallow about 2.am one morning and driving through it and putting the lights on full for the craic, Bodies running everywhere, some craic.

:pac:

lawrencesummers

marno21 wrote: »

Lads this project hasn’t even had route options published yet. It’s at very minimum 4 years away from starting. A bit of perspective is needed here as the construction decision is so far away that it’s not worth dwelling on; there are many factors which will determine the outcome of this project and many of the important decisions are years away yet.

Let’s take it one step at a time.

The problem with taking it one step at a time is that 5 years of the greens sharing power means the next step will be delayed by another 5 years, and the problem with that can be calculated in actual lives.

I’ve no doubt that the road will eventually be built, it’s just a question of how many more deaths will happen on that lethal road before it is done.

I don’t disagree with the greens that cycle lanes need improving, but they need improving for the exact same reason that this road does as well, it’s hypocritical to want people on bikes for the sake of the environment, while advocating bike lanes be improved for safety reasons while this road bringS safety and environmental improvements as well.

Cork Trucker

https://twitter.com/irishexaminer/status/1273949034034548736?s=21

Sam Russell

Cork Trucker wrote: »

https://twitter.com/irishexaminer/status/1273949034034548736?s=21

I think we might see a compromise - either they build it in parts, or they go ahead but it will not be ready for actual start before the next election.

Looking at the prospect of a Limerick Cork railway, surely double tracking, and upgrading the line from Limerick to Limerick Junction would be a faster way to get a rail link, and be a better solution as it will speed the Limerick Dublin connection. As part of this, the existing line should be improved to allow much faster transit, plus commuter trains nearer Limerick.

It is about 20 km extra than a direct line - using Google maps distance measure - as the crow flies. It is obvious that such a plan would be significantly than any other plan.

lawrencesummers

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think we might see a compromise - either they build it in parts, or they go ahead but it will not be ready for actual start before the next election.

Looking at the prospect of a Limerick Cork railway, surely double tracking, and upgrading the line from Limerick to Limerick Junction would be a faster way to get a rail link, and be a better solution as it will speed the Limerick Dublin connection. As part of this, the existing line should be improved to allow much faster transit, plus commuter trains nearer Limerick.

It is about 20 km extra than a direct line - using Google maps distance measure - as the crow flies. It is obvious that such a plan would be significantly than any other plan.

I’m of the belief that when a politician says something will happen, there is every chance that it won’t. When they something like it should, it could, I’m in favour of it or anything other than it being 100% definite then there isn’t a hope in hell that it will happen

Bass Reeves

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think we might see a compromise - either they build it in parts, or they go ahead but it will not be ready for actual start before the next election.

Looking at the prospect of a Limerick Cork railway, surely double tracking, and upgrading the line from Limerick to Limerick Junction would be a faster way to get a rail link, and be a better solution as it will speed the Limerick Dublin connection. As part of this, the existing line should be improved to allow much faster transit, plus commuter trains nearer Limerick.

It is about 20 km extra than a direct line - using Google maps distance measure - as the crow flies. It is obvious that such a plan would be significantly than any other plan.

I think we will see progress on the M20. It may not be started but got shovel ready. As well this government if it gets off the ground may only last 3-4 years.

The greens might be a bit naive but they are not stupid. Costings will show that realignment and bypasses are no cheaper than a full motorway option. They will get there big rail project being planned in Dublin and it will be the same with the M20.

There problem with the M20 was Eamon Ryan's mouth talks before his brain thinks. Funding will decide it's faith along with whatever big commuter rail project goes ahead in or around Dublin.

AugustusMinimus

Surely being anti M20 and just about any road project will severely limit their ability to attract new voters outside the Pale?

Cork Trucker

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Surely being anti M20 and just about any road project will severely limit their ability to attract new voters outside the Pale?

You'll always attract tree huggers/eco warriors no matter what you do.

donvito99

Cork Trucker wrote: »

You'll always attract tree huggers/eco warriors no matter what you do.

Maybe they could legislate for wolves to vote and they might pick up a rural seat or two.

Cork Trucker

donvito99 wrote: »

Maybe they could legislate for wolves to vote and they might pick up a rural seat or two.

Wolves with their lettuce boxes?

Sam Russell

Mod: Can we keep to the M20 please.

Isambard

if I could make a point about the Charleville to Patrickswell link that's tied up with the M20 subject. What few have mentioned is that this route crosses several urban level crossings in Limerick City including a very oblique one by Tesco on the old main drag to the south. I doubt opening this track to anything but an occasional freight to/from Foynes is practical.

Cookiemunster

Isambard wrote: »

if I could make a point about the Charleville to Patrickswell link that's tied up with the M20 subject. What few have mentioned is that this route crosses several urban level crossings in Limerick City including a very oblique one by Tesco on the old main drag to the south. I doubt opening this track to anything but an occasional freight to/from Foynes is practical.

I mentioned elsewhere that the final section of track across Careys Road into Colbert Station was lifted 40 or 50 years ago and the CIE actually built their social club on the alignment. Using the line that's still there would require joining the Dublin line and reversing into the station.

Isambard

Indeed, it's fraught with so many problems, I think it's a non starter.

serfboard

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I think we will see progress on the M20. It may not be started but got shovel ready.

Yep, that's what I think as well and as another poster said it's a win-win - FF/FG can say that they advanced the project and the Greens can say that the motorway was not built, and all will be telling the truth!

Hibernicis

Sam Russell wrote: »

Looking at the prospect of a Limerick Cork railway, surely double tracking, and upgrading the line from Limerick to Limerick Junction would be a faster way to get a rail link, and be a better solution as it will speed the Limerick Dublin connection.  As part of this, the existing line should be improved to allow much faster transit, plus commuter trains nearer Limerick.
It is about 20 km extra than a direct line - using Google maps distance measure - as the crow flies.  It is obvious that such a plan would be significantly than any other plan.

You are spot on about the Limerick Junction route being a far more practical option. Reopening the Charleville-Patrickswell line has raised its head here a few times and it’s about time it was shown up for the piped dream that it is and put to bed for once and for all. 

The fastest and easiest way to get a substantial time reduction in the Cork-Limerick rail connection is to allocate dedicated rolling stock to the route. This would eliminate the waiting time in Limerick Junction, which is often 15-20 mins and sometime a lot longer. That time saving alone would make the service a lot more attractive and is the best “bang for buck” investment by far. There is probably no immediate need to double the 20km single track section of the Limerick-Limerick Junction track as there is a passing loop at Dromkeen and another one or two passing loops could easily and quickly be constructed (CIE/IE already own all the necessary land so this could be done as a quick engineering job rather than a 5 year infrastructure project). Should it reach the stage that the traffic justified double tracking this is easily achieved as the full length was originally double tracked (up to the 1970s as far as I remember) and as this is an operational line CIE/IR are unlikely to have lost control/ownership of the second track bed. The big issue/cost is eliminating the Level Crossings - double tracking is pointless unless this is dealt with and this would hugely increase the cost of the project. I’m not arguing against double tracking it, just making the point that as a first step the travel time could be very substantially reduced very quickly and very easily. The rest could follow if the traffic justified it. 

All of the above is 100 times more sensible than going anywhere near the Charleville-Patrickswell line. First off, people appear to think that you just have to re-lay the 20km track between these points. Not correct. The Foynes line between Limerick and Patrickswell is in the similar desolate condition to the Glounthane-Midleton line before it was relaid just over 10 years ago. The project to reopen that 10km stretch cost €100m. Charleville to Limerick is 30km and so you would start with a figure of €300m, though given that the last 6 or 7 km runs through the city the cost could be a lot more - some of the road/rail bridges required could cost €50m-€70m each. Secondly, both legs (Charleville-Patrickswell and Patrickswell-Limerick) were/are single track, so the above cost (based on the cost of relaying the Glounthane-Midleton line which was also single track before and after) only gets it to single track. Double tracking would require extensive land acquisition and is probably not financially feasible in the suburban sections. Thirdly, the trackbed has not been preserved and some substantial stretches have reverted to agricultural use, not to mention the stretch that was overlaid by the Croom bypass, all of which will raise substantial legal and compensation issues and extensive time delays. Back of a fag box calculations would suggest that reopening that line as single track could cost anything from €350m to €500m and probably double this if it were to be double track, a prerequisite for HST operation. It’s a complete non starter and doesn’t merit discussion, much less consideration. If expenditure of that magnitude were to be contemplated it would be far better to spend €100m to €200m double tracking Limerick Junction-Limerick and eliminating the level crossings and the balance on the Limerick Junction-Cork line, which people assume to be HST capable, but which has severe speed limits in sections. This would have a far superior ROI as it would benefit the all Cork-Dublin traffic as well as Cork-Limerick traffic. 

And you don't need to take my word for Charleville-Patrickswell-Limerick reopening being a basket case. The Aecom report, commissioned some years ago by CIE/IR, reaches the same conclusion. https://www.irishrail.ie/IrishRail/media/Imported/irishrail_28febfinal_part21.pdf

But all of that is an aside. Our common cause is the M20. This whole “Rail vs Road” debate has gained a level of credibility that it does not deserve. You could build a TGV running from Cork to Limerick and people would still drive from Douglas to Caherdavin and Bandon or Fermoy to Newcastle West or Adare rather than take a train, not to mention Skibbereen to Foynes etc. Why ? We simply do not have the type of integrated public transport infrastructure that these multi leg journeys require. And while I’m all for the “Brave New World” that the Greens appear to aspire to, the M20 is not the place to start the revolution. The other critical factor that seems to be completely overlooked is the question of freight. All of the arguments I’ve seen reGrading a rail link seem to be based on moving people. Road freight is a hugely important part of the justification for the upgrade to the N20. Rail freight is all but dead in this country (and I’m not blaming/bashing CIE/IR for this - the reasons are complicated and are social policy, industrial policy and population density related). A HST rail service running from Cork to Limerick is unlikely to have any significant impact on road freight. So all the vans, trucks and artics that run from Cork to Limerick and back will continue, irrespective of the improvements in rail. Why ? Because the nature of that traffic is totally unsuited to the rail freight offerings that are ever likely to be available. Take Musgraves as an example. Their JIT logistics operation based on Tramore Road loads trucks and despatches these to Centra and SuperValu stores nationwide. Trucks leave and serve their stores in Mallow, Buttevent, Charleville, Hospital, Limerick City, and onward to Clare, Galway, Mayo, Sligo and Donegal.  So what do we expect - Musgraves load these perishable and other goods into quarter full containers, ship them to Kent station by road, trunk them by rail to Colbert, and then last leg them by road to a scattering of destinations ? Nope. Every last one of these trucks will remain on the road. The same goes for virtually all road freight. 

A long post, but this green/ryan “inspired” rail as an alternative to road is palpable nonsense. The two are complimentary, not alternatives. The M20 needs to be built for all the safety and efficiency based reasons stated here ad nauseam. And the rail link also needs significant improvement. 

In summary:

• Yes to a much improved rail link between Cork and Limerick
• Yes to better Public Transport and better integrated Public Transport
• Yes to the climate change agenda 
• Yes to affordable electric vehicles using renewable energy sources
• But also yes to a safe, modern, efficient road between the country’s second and third cities and Yes to the elimination of huge amounts of traffic from the intermediate towns.

Bass Reeves

Hibernicis wrote: »

You are spot on about the Limerick Junction route being a far more practical option. Reopening the Charleville-Patrickswell line has raised its head here a few times and it’s about time it was shown up for the piped dream that it is and put to bed for once and for all. 

The fastest and easiest way to get a substantial time reduction in the Cork-Limerick rail connection is to allocate dedicated rolling stock to the route. This would eliminate the waiting time in Limerick Junction, which is often 15-20 mins and sometime a lot longer. That time saving alone would make the service a lot more attractive and is the best “bang for buck” investment by far. There is probably no immediate need to double the 20km single track section of the Limerick-Limerick Junction track as there is a passing loop at Dromkeen and another one or two passing loops could easily and quickly be constructed (CIE/IE already own all the necessary land so this could be done as a quick engineering job rather than a 5 year infrastructure project). Should it reach the stage that the traffic justified double tracking this is easily achieved as the full length was originally double tracked (up to the 1970s as far as I remember) and as this is an operational line CIE/IR are unlikely to have lost control/ownership of the second track bed. The big issue/cost is eliminating the Level Crossings - double tracking is pointless unless this is dealt with and this would hugely increase the cost of the project. I’m not arguing against double tracking it, just making the point that as a first step the travel time could be very substantially reduced very quickly and very easily. The rest could follow if the traffic justified it. 

All of the above is 100 times more sensible than going anywhere near the Charleville-Patrickswell line. First off, people appear to think that you just have to re-lay the 20km track between these points. Not correct. The Foynes line between Limerick and Patrickswell is in the similar desolate condition to the Glounthane-Midleton line before it was relaid just over 10 years ago. The project to reopen that 10km stretch cost €100m. Charleville to Limerick is 30km and so you would start with a figure of €300m, though given that the last 6 or 7 km runs through the city the cost could be a lot more - some of the road/rail bridges required could cost €50m-€70m each. Secondly, both legs (Charleville-Patrickswell and Patrickswell-Limerick) were/are single track, so the above cost (based on the cost of relaying the Glounthane-Midleton line which was also single track before and after) only gets it to single track. Double tracking would require extensive land acquisition and is probably not financially feasible in the suburban sections. Thirdly, the trackbed has not been preserved and some substantial stretches have reverted to agricultural use, not to mention the stretch that was overlaid by the Croom bypass, all of which will raise substantial legal and compensation issues and extensive time delays. Back of a fag box calculations would suggest that reopening that line as single track could cost anything from €350m to €500m and probably double this if it were to be double track, a prerequisite for HST operation. It’s a complete non starter and doesn’t merit discussion, much less consideration. If expenditure of that magnitude were to be contemplated it would be far better to spend €100m to €200m double tracking Limerick Junction-Limerick and eliminating the level crossings and the balance on the Limerick Junction-Cork line, which people assume to be HST capable, but which has severe speed limits in sections. This would have a far superior ROI as it would benefit the all Cork-Dublin traffic as well as Cork-Limerick traffic. 

And you don't need to take my word for Charleville-Patrickswell-Limerick reopening being a basket case. The Aecom report, commissioned some years ago by CIE/IR, reaches the same conclusion. https://www.irishrail.ie/IrishRail/media/Imported/irishrail_28febfinal_part21.pdf

But all of that is an aside. Our common cause is the M20. This whole “Rail vs Road” debate has gained a level of credibility that it does not deserve. You could build a TGV running from Cork to Limerick and people would still drive from Douglas to Caherdavin and Bandon or Fermoy to Newcastle West or Adare rather than take a train, not to mention Skibbereen to Foynes etc. Why ? We simply do not have the type of integrated public transport infrastructure that these multi leg journeys require. And while I’m all for the “Brave New World” that the Greens appear to aspire to, the M20 is not the place to start the revolution. The other critical factor that seems to be completely overlooked is the question of freight. All of the arguments I’ve seen reGrading a rail link seem to be based on moving people. Road freight is a hugely important part of the justification for the upgrade to the N20. Rail freight is all but dead in this country (and I’m not blaming/bashing CIE/IR for this - the reasons are complicated and are social policy, industrial policy and population density related). A HST rail service running from Cork to Limerick is unlikely to have any significant impact on road freight. So all the vans, trucks and artics that run from Cork to Limerick and back will continue, irrespective of the improvements in rail. Why ? Because the nature of that traffic is totally unsuited to the rail freight offerings that are ever likely to be available. Take Musgraves as an example. Their JIT logistics operation based on Tramore Road loads trucks and despatches these to Centra and SuperValu stores nationwide. Trucks leave and serve their stores in Mallow, Buttevent, Charleville, Hospital, Limerick City, and onward to Clare, Galway, Mayo, Sligo and Donegal.  So what do we expect - Musgraves load these perishable and other goods into quarter full containers, ship them to Kent station by road, trunk them by rail to Colbert, and then last leg them by road to a scattering of destinations ? Nope. Every last one of these trucks will remain on the road. The same goes for virtually all road freight. 

A long post, but this green/ryan “inspired” rail as an alternative to road is palpable nonsense. The two are complimentary, not alternatives. The M20 needs to be built for all the safety and efficiency based reasons stated here ad nauseam. And the rail link also needs significant improvement. 

In summary:

• Yes to a much improved rail link between Cork and Limerick
• Yes to better Public Transport and better integrated Public Transport
• Yes to the climate change agenda 
• Yes to affordable electric vehicles using renewable energy sources
• But also yes to a safe, modern, efficient road between the country’s second and third cities and Yes to the elimination of huge amounts of traffic from the intermediate towns.

Brilliant post and the investment in the junction sounds grand in theory. However there is little to demand end to end for train services. If the motorway is build people will use an end to end bus service because it will be cheaper, faster and more frequent. Limerick to Cork will be similar to Limerick to Galway used by students on heavily discounted rates and FTP holders.

The argument for rail in Ireland is flawed no matter which option is chosen via the junction or Patrickswell. On neither case will the train deliver people to less than 500m of the hone) workplaces. People will have a car anyway and will not be willing to do secondary journeys on either buses or shuttle busses to arrive at work.

A large section of those workings in Cork and Limerick are working for American MN. The nature of the work is often shift work and pay as well as bonuses are structured for being on time.

Just as an example many on are a rate/ hour with another 1-2/hour for being on time for the shift and not missing data at work. Extra shifts (OT) are often offered to people hitting there targets first. Christmas or yearly bonus is given on this basis as well. Such workers are unwilling to depend on PT

Reputable Rog

Some very interesting posts on the railway option. Big thanks to Cookie Munster for the info on the old line.
The current layout would indeed lead to a time consuming and cumbersome manoeuvre, Killarney is bad enough without a repeat.

niloc1951

A great post Hibernicis. But you missed one issue in favour of the M20.
The advent of self driving vehicles and convoyed freight vehicles SEE HERE adds to the imperative to build the M20 between the two cities, particularly as the rail option is not viable for the movement of freight/merchandise.

Bazzer007

Micheal Martin stated this morning on Rte Radio 1 that the Cork/Limerick road would go ahead. The Presenter asked if the improvement works would go ahead instead of directly asking if the motorway would be built. Martin answered saying the road will be built.

CrabRevolution

Kivaro wrote: »

The amount of times that I saw traffic backed up for many kilometers due to various reasons on the main road between Ireland's 2nd and 3rd largest cities are numerous. It is happening on a daily basis I presume, with one of the reasons being a slow moving tractor that cannot be safely passed on one of the bottleneck sections. Can't blame the tractor driver; it's their road too.

So we have a situation of national commerce via trucks and other commercial vehicles, emergency vehicles, and general traffic crawling along due to the unsuitable situation of the Cork/Limerick road. If there was a study done on the pollutants pumped into the air and atmosphere due to these slow moving vehicles, I would hazard a guess that bottleneck pollution and the cost to the economy far exceeds the cost to build the M20 from Cork to Limerick.

This decision was inevitable though when there was a sniff of the Greens getting into power. They will be disastrous for the country, and it is undemocratic that such a small party could have such wide ranging negative consequences for the majority of the people in this country who did not vote for them.

Pretty bizarre claim. In 33 Dáil elections, only twice has a party gotten over 50% of the vote. By your logic nearly every decision made in the history of the state has been undemocratic since most people didn't vote for that government. The greens got seats proportional to their votes and are using those to try and form a government-what's undemocratic about that?

Sam Russell

Mod: Can we keep politics out of this thread. There are plenty of places within boards.ie to discuss party politics.

Any further posts considered political will be deleted with whatever other action may be necessary.

mydiscworld

Remind me, are we still in the route selection phase or has it even got that far yet?