M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

Cookiemunster

mydiscworld wrote: »

Remind me, are we still in the route selection phase or has it even got that far yet?

https://corklimerick.ie/ The preferred road-based scenario and the two rail-based scenarios will be carried forward to Phase 2 Option Selection. For the road-based scenario, we will develop route options within the N20 corridor. The road-based route options along with the rail-based options will be appraised in relation to the project objectives to identify the preferred transport option for connecting Cork and Limerick.

Cosmo Kramer

Looks like Eamon Ryan might be getting the transport minister job.

Cork Trucker

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

Looks like Eamon Ryan might be getting the transport minister job.

Bring back Lord Ross all is forgiven (I know many will disagree :pac:)

The M20 will definitely be pushed out now.

Sam Russell

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Bring back Lord Ross all is forgiven (I know many will disagree :pac:)

The M20 will definitely be pushed out now.

With three senior Gov ministers in Cork South Central inc the Taoseach, I cannot see the M20 being canned or even delayed. It might even be pushed forward, but the rail link might also be pushed forward.

Cork Trucker

Sam Russell wrote: »

With three senior Gov ministers in Cork South Central inc the Taoseach, I cannot see the M20 being canned or even delayed. It might even be pushed forward, but the rail link might also be pushed forward.

Correct, however I can’t see much progress made in the next 5 years on it compared to a government with no Green Party representatives at the cabinet table. I’d be happy to see the rail link and motorway combined, but Ryan probably demanded transport.

Isambard

Rail link via Lim Junc makes sense to develop , but the M20 even more so

Sam Russell

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Correct, however I can’t see much progress made in the next 5 years on it compared to a government with no Green Party representatives at the cabinet table. I’d be happy to see the rail link and motorway combined, but Ryan probably demanded transport.

If the rail link was done by using the Limerick Junction line, with rework of Limerick Junction, and direct services between the two cities, this could all be in place quite quickly. It is an extra 20 km going by LJ, or and extra 10 mins if 120 km/hr can be achieved. Initially, just extra services can be used to get the service accepted without any extra infrastructure.

IR would then have Dublin Cork, Dublin Limerick, and Limerick Cork, with connections at LJ. If Limerick Cork could be got close to one hour, it would certainly be a good solution.

If you think about it, Galway is served via Portarlington on a single track line. I am sure that adds more than 10 mins.

AugustusMinimus

Do many people use the current train between Limerick and Galways. Will a new line between Limerick and Cork just be a waste of money?

Getting the train between cities is great when you can just walk to your destination at the other side. Urban sprawl land lack of city centre high rise really works against this scenario in Ireland.

Cookiemunster

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

Looks like Eamon Ryan might be getting the transport minister job.

Yes, but with a super junior minister for roads from either FF or FG.

Sam Russell

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Do many people use the current train between Limerick and Galways. Will a new line between Limerick and Cork just be a waste of money?

Getting the train between cities is great when you can just walk to your destination at the other side. Urban sprawl land lack of city centre high rise really works against this scenario in Ireland.

Well, if that is true, would it not be better to start running direct services before committing billions on a direct line. It would only require a few DMUs to start with, and if they fill up, run a few more and try and speed them up. As the traffic increases, the improve sections of the line by double tracking and improve running speed.

Rail needs to be reliable, frequent, and fast. As each improves, so do the number of passengers.

Cork Trucker

Sam Russell wrote: »

If the rail link was done by using the Limerick Junction line, with rework of Limerick Junction, and direct services between the two cities, this could all be in place quite quickly. It is an extra 20 km going by LJ, or and extra 10 mins if 120 km/hr can be achieved. Initially, just extra services can be used to get the service accepted without any extra infrastructure.

IR would then have Dublin Cork, Dublin Limerick, and Limerick Cork, with connections at LJ. If Limerick Cork could be got close to one hour, it would certainly be a good solution.

If you think about it, Galway is served via Portarlington on a single track line. I am sure that adds more than 10 mins.

What you say are: Limerick junction makes total sense, but will it happen as quickly an is hoped. Limerick-Cork by train is doable depending on what trains are out on, many of them can match or go faster than the speed on roads.

I’d have thought Portarlington would add a hell if a lot more than 10 minutes

Cork Trucker

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Yes, but with a super junior minister for roads from either FF or FG.

The greens will have a junior minister, Neasa Hourigan I reckon, in finance to try keep an eye on them as well

Bass Reeves

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Do many people use the current train between Limerick and Galways. Will a new line between Limerick and Cork just be a waste of money?

Getting the train between cities is great when you can just walk to your destination at the other side. Urban sprawl land lack of city centre high rise really works against this scenario in Ireland.

The answer to Limerick Galway is no. It is 30-40 minutes longer by train than by bus and about an hour by car and that is city center to city center. It popular enough by students as it's 4.50 each way and those with the free travel pass. Very few commute city center to city centre. With motorway and tunnel if you are going outskirts to outskirts you are looking at a 70 minute journey and about 7-8 euro one way on diesel.

mdmix

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Do many people use the current train between Limerick and Galways. Will a new line between Limerick and Cork just be a waste of money?

Getting the train between cities is great when you can just walk to your destination at the other side. Urban sprawl land lack of city centre high rise really works against this scenario in Ireland.

The service is unreliable due to flooding and speeds are poor compared to road, but it had 530k journeys last year.

Limerick-Cork would be busier if there was a decent timetable and journey time. Given the M20 is 8 years away at best it’s ludicrous there are no urgent plans to upgrade the train service. If a direct train were possible via limerick junction in under an hour then there is no need to rebuild the old line disused line

Cookiemunster

mdmix wrote: »

The service is unreliable due to flooding and speeds are poor compared to road, but it had 530k journeys last year.

Does that not include commuter journeys between Limerick and Ennis? And between Athenry and Galway? The ridership between Ennis and Athenry is nowhere that.

mdmix wrote: »

Limerick-Cork would be busier if there was a decent timetable and journey time. Given the M20 is 8 years away at best it’s ludicrous there are no urgent plans to upgrade the train service. If a direct train were possible via limerick junction in under an hour then there is no need to rebuild the old line disused line

Limerick Junction to Cork takes an hour. You're not getting a sub 1 hour Limerick to Cork journey any time soon. An upgrade at the junction should be done ASAP though.

mdmix

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Does that not include commuter journeys between Limerick and Ennis? And between Athenry and Galway? The ridership between Ennis and Athenry is nowhere that.



Limerick Junction to Cork takes an hour. You're not getting a sub 1 hour Limerick to Cork journey any time soon. An upgrade at the junction should be done ASAP though.

it does cover all journeys so I should have mentioned that. Under an hour should be the long term goal, but I'm sure gradual improvements could be made in the short to medium term.

Kevtherev1

1. Cookiemunster wrote: »

   Yes, but with a super junior minister for roads from either FF or FG.

Ivan Yates @ Newstalk is predicting Marc MacSharry (FF) to be the super junior roads minister.

Sam Russell

Cork Trucker wrote: »

What you say are: Limerick junction makes total sense, but will it happen as quickly an is hoped. Limerick-Cork by train is doable depending on what trains are out on, many of them can match or go faster than the speed on roads.

I’d have thought Portarlington would add a hell if a lot more than 10 minutes

Portarlington is not on the Limerick Cork line.

An amount of double tracking would be needed for Limerick to Limerick Junction to achieve any reasonable speed and frequency.

AugustusMinimus

The old line between Charleville and Limerick has been sold off I believe. So it would require a new alignment and CPOs. Gonna be pricey.

mdmix

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

The old line between Charleville and Limerick has been sold off I believe. So it would require a new alignment and CPOs. Gonna be pricey.

The Aecom report cited in an earlier post estimated it at 140 million, which would be pricey for 25k of rail. For ref the Ennis to Athenry line cost 106 million, so less than 2 million per km.

Cork Trucker

I know politics is to be kept out of here so forgive me in advance and I’ll take it to the politics cafe after this

https://twitter.com/smytho/status/1276580404510830592?s=21

mikeym

Cork Trucker wrote: »

I know politics is to be kept out of here so forgive me in advance and I’ll take it to the politics cafe after this

https://twitter.com/smytho/status/1276580404510830592?s=21

Im actually happy the greens are in a coalition because nobody is going to vote for them in the next General election.

I cant see the M20 being built while the Green Party have some influence in the Dail.

Leonard Hofstadter

mikeym wrote: »

Im actually happy the greens are in a coalition because nobody is going to vote for them in the next General election.

I cant see the M20 being built while the Green Party have some influence in the Dail.

The fact that one of the Super Junior Ministries is specifically for roads makes me cautiously optimistic that it will get to tender. I certainly don't expect it to be open by 2025, but it should get to construction by then fingers crossed.

It would be one heck of a damning indictment of FF and FG to have a Cork Taoiseach, and two Cork Ministers for it not to go ahead in the lifetime of the Government.

cjpm

The year is 2020.

It’s actually one heck of a damning indictment of FF and FG to have the 2nd and 3rd largest cities in the Republic (only 100km apart) not linked by a motorway.

Only a road that in parts is the same standard as a normal Regional road, with sections that even date from famine times.

Shows a lot about Gov priorities for the last 30 years. They’ve created a monster in Dublin while Cork and Limerick lag so far behind.

Bass Reeves

cjpm wrote: »

The year is 2020.

It’s actually one heck of a damning indictment of FF and FG to have the 2nd and 3rd largest cities in the Republic (only 100km apart) not linked by a motorway.

Only a road that in parts is the same standard as a normal Regional road, with sections that even date from famine times.

Shows a lot about Gov priorities for the last 30 years. They’ve created a monster in Dublin while Cork and Limerick lag so far behind.

You are reading a bit too much into it. Dublin Cork motorway was not complete until 2009, Dublin Galway around the same time while Dublin Waterford and Dublin Limerick were 2010. TBF this was probably the first time we had money to complete these projects. The scandal was that during the noughties l
That the FF government gave priority to Limerick to Galway rather than Limerick to Cork. Yesore progress should have been made on it over the last 3-5 years.

Money could have been saved on other road projects Ennis to Gort and beyond maybe should have been high class single carriageway as well as section of Dublin Waterford motorway. The 100 million spend in Ennis Athenry was a waste as well. That would have been half the price of Cork Limerick. Even on Cork Limerick O have no issue if Charlesville Mallow was high class single carriageway but in the long term it should be motorway

AugustusMinimus

Bass Reeves wrote: »

You are reading a bit too much into it. Dublin Cork motorway was not complete until 2009, Dublin Galway around the same time while Dublin Waterford and Dublin Limerick were 2010. TBF this was probably the first time we had money to complete these projects. The scandal was that during the noughties l
That the FF government gave priority to Limerick to Galway rather than Limerick to Cork. Yesore progress should have been made on it over the last 3-5 years.

Money could have been saved on other road projects Ennis to Gort and beyond maybe should have been high class single carriageway as well as section of Dublin Waterford motorway. The 100 million spend in Ennis Athenry was a waste as well. That would have been half the price of Cork Limerick. Even on Cork Limerick O have no issue if Charlesville Mallow was high class single carriageway but in the long term it should be motorway

Why in Gods name would you even consider single carriageway for Mallow Charleville?

Isambard

where the money was wasted was having the M7 and M8 pretty much paralell and seperated by a mountain. The M8 should not have been built, instead the M20 should have been built. The M9 was a bit of a waste too for much the same reason.

Cosmo Kramer

Isambard wrote: »

where the money was wasted was having the M7 and M8 pretty much paralell and seperated by a mountain. The M8 should not have been built, instead the M20 should have been built. The M9 was a bit of a waste too for much the same reason.

While it's irrelevant at this stage there may have been some merit to doing the M8 on more of a crow flies routing, running west of Kilkenny and straight down to Cork with the M7 and M9 as spur roads off the M8. Would have linked Limerick and Waterford as well and the savings could have potentially funded the M20.

Bass Reeves

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Why in Gods name would you even consider single carriageway for Mallow Charleville?

If you read my post I was not proposing it but rather not having an issue with it. Have you ever travelled Ennis to Gort even in rush hours it has no traffic on it to justify motorway. At off peak you drive it and only have to overtake 1-2 cars on a 40km stretch.

At present if you had high class single carriageway from Charleville to Mallow it would be adequate at present. I am not talking about widening existing road but rather building a new single carriageway with overtaking area and no continuous access. On this road you would only have access at Buttervant, Mallow and Charleville just like a motorway. It would be adequate until 2050 at least. However the savings are minimal compared to s total motorway. Ennis to 15km beyond Gort should have been such a road

alias no.9

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

While it's irrelevant at this stage there may have been some merit to doing the M8 on more of a crow flies routing, running west of Kilkenny and straight down to Cork with the M7 and M9 as spur roads off the M8. Would have linked Limerick and Waterford as well and the savings could have potentially funded the M20.

The old N8 and new M8 routing is heavily dictated by mountain ranges. In your suggestion, coming west of Kilkenny would mean tracking straight towards Slievenamon. Whether you cut east or west of Slievenamon, you're still left with the choice to head west towards Mitchelstown or south towards Cappoquin to avoid the Knockmealdown mountain range.

The M7 spur from your alternative M8 route would probably need to cut off around Athy and head towards the current M7/M8 merge and follow the current M7 to Limerick as it would have to pass by Nenagh to avoid the Silvermines unless you're talking of using the N24 alignment which is an even poorer M7 solution than it is an M20 solution.

Whatever way the M9 spur to Waterford went, I don't think Waterford and Limerick would have ended up better connected in this arrangement.


If you want to do crayon routes, you could argue that an M8 route that follows the M7 to Nenagh then skirting close to the western side of the Silvermines towards Charleville with an M7 spur on the N24 alignment could have given a complete M7/M8/M20 solution for less than the cost of the existing M7/M8 without significantly impacting overall distance. What it ignores is that the current M7 is also an orbital motorway for Limerick and that without the N40 North Ring completed in Cork, all Dublin and Limerick traffic arriving into Blackpool would be an unmitigated disaster.