M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

AugustusMinimus

Having the M8 go anywhere between Mitchelstown and Dungarvan would be a huge no no. Mountainous and hilly terrain. Would have cost a lot, lot more.

alias no.9

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Having the M8 go anywhere between Mitchelstown and Dungarvan would be a huge no no. Mountainous and hilly terrain. Would have cost a lot, lot more.

It would have had to be Clonmel to Cappoquin to go east of the mountains and I agree it does not stand up as a viable option. Anything between that and Mitchelstown is even worse.

Isambard

alias no.9 wrote: »

The old N8 and new M8 routing is heavily dictated by mountain ranges. In your suggestion, coming west of Kilkenny would mean tracking straight towards Slievenamon. Whether you cut east or west of Slievenamon, you're still left with the choice to head west towards Mitchelstown or south towards Cappoquin to avoid the Knockmealdown mountain range.

The M7 spur from your alternative M8 route would probably need to cut off around Athy and head towards the current M7/M8 merge and follow the current M7 to Limerick as it would have to pass by Nenagh to avoid the Silvermines unless you're talking of using the N24 alignment which is an even poorer M7 solution than it is an M20 solution.

Whatever way the M9 spur to Waterford went, I don't think Waterford and Limerick would have ended up better connected in this arrangement.


If you want to do crayon routes, you could argue that an M8 route that follows the M7 to Nenagh then skirting close to the western side of the Silvermines towards Charleville with an M7 spur on the N24 alignment could have given a complete M7/M8/M20 solution for less than the cost of the existing M7/M8 without significantly impacting overall distance. What it ignores is that the current M7 is also an orbital motorway for Limerick and that without the N40 North Ring completed in Cork, all Dublin and Limerick traffic arriving into Blackpool would be an unmitigated disaster.

whilst it's academic, it's interesting to note that the Mitchelstown/Cahir/ Clonmel/Kilkenny route was the original Cork to Dublin route before the Turnpikes. The route north etc headed to the Midlands via Cashel and Roscrea.

Truckermal

Oh well bye bye thread.....

Cosmo Kramer

Getting back to the M20 it's interesting to see that there is no super junior minister for roads after all. The super junior is for "international transport and logistics" which sounds more like air and sea ports and ensuring that Brexit doesn't affect import and export routes.

So that leaves Eamon Ryan in charge of the roads budget.

Isambard

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

Getting back to the M20 it's interesting to see that there is no super junior minister for roads after all. The super junior is for "international transport and logistics" which sounds more like air and sea ports and ensuring that Brexit doesn't affect import and export routes.

So that leaves Eamon Ryan in charge of the roads budget.

nice to see you getting us back to the M20.

Fred Cryton

Do we seriously expect Eamon Ryan to bring forward proposals to build a motorway between Cork and Limerick and seek approval from cabinet??

It's not going to happen is it. What happens here if the rest of government wants it, but the actual Transport minister doesn't. There's nothing specific in the pfg on the subject is there?

Reputable Rog

There’s no one from Cork NW, Cork east or the two Limerick constituencies at cabinet to push for it.
Don’t forget all three of the Cork SC ministers are opposed to the M28, the M20 is dead in the water.

steeler j

What if Eammon Ryan doesn't get reelected as green party leader

JamesBond2010

This thread will become a teenager in September that how long its going & More likely to become an Adult by the time we see the M20 Built

Cosmo Kramer

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

Getting back to the M20 it's interesting to see that there is no super junior minister for roads after all. The super junior is for "international transport and logistics" which sounds more like air and sea ports and ensuring that Brexit doesn't affect import and export routes.

So that leaves Eamon Ryan in charge of the roads budget.

It also looks like there is not a single minister west of the Shannon, not even a paltry Gaeltacht one. Can't see how a third of the country has been completely neglected for representation by this government.

Thankfully we have some roads started can't see any more development in our region.

However with a Taoiseach and three other ministers from Cork and Kerry i'd be surprised if they did not get funding for the M20, even if Ryan tries to block it.

Baldilocks

Reputable Rog wrote: »

There’s no one from Cork NW, Cork east or the two Limerick constituencies at cabinet to push for it.
Don’t forget all three of the Cork SC ministers are opposed to the M28, the M20 is dead in the water.

What makes you say that the 3 Cork SC ministers are opposed to the M28?
I know they were sending out mixed messages on the topic, with Micheal Martin actually attending an 'event', but I have seen nothing from the 3 opposing the project.

On the M20, surely there will be a cabinet reshuffle in a couple of years time, and that might allow for different outlook

Reputable Rog

Baldilocks wrote: »

What makes you say that the 3 Cork SC ministers are opposed to the M28?
I know they were sending out mixed messages on the topic, with Micheal Martin actually attending an 'event', but I have seen nothing from the 3 opposing the project.

On the M20, surely there will be a cabinet reshuffle in a couple of years time, and that might allow for different outlook

I worked on the M28 project, I spent weeks at the oral hearing where I saw them come and speak against it.
I was also there when the FDI representative in Ringaskiddy gave the pharma’s views of the project which despite de Paper reporting that they were opposed to it it was actually the opposite, they just felt the consultation could have been handled better ( somewhat ironic). It was the now 3 ministers and the also ran Buttimer who were opposing it.

Leonard Hofstadter

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

Getting back to the M20 it's interesting to see that there is no super junior minister for roads after all. The super junior is for "international transport and logistics" which sounds more like air and sea ports and ensuring that Brexit doesn't affect import and export routes.

So that leaves Eamon Ryan in charge of the roads budget.

Hildegarde IS responsible for roads, along with the other things that have been reported today. As per her Facebook page, she has special responsibility for 'international & road transport & logistics', so there is a roads minster as they promised. Hildegarde does take climate change very seriously, but unlike the Greens, she is quite pragmatic and sees how roads are part of the solution, not the problem. As you might expect for a Galway West Deputy, she has spoken in favour of the M6 bypass, so again I am cautiously optimistic that she will make sure the M20 (and fingers crossed the bypass) gets somewhere during the lifetime of the next Government.

Also, Paschal Donohue is the man in charge of the purse strings, he's said a few times since the election that the M20 is important.

It may be political posturing, but let's give them the benefit of the doubt for now. I also think for all Ryan's daft pronouncements, he is eminently more pragmatic and sensible than Catherine Martin.

Marcusm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Do we seriously expect Eamon Ryan to bring forward proposals to build a motorway between Cork and Limerick and seek approval from cabinet??

It's not going to happen is it. What happens here if the rest of government wants it, but the actual Transport minister doesn't. There's nothing specific in the pfg on the subject is there?

With the 2:1 split he has to sanction new road building to ensure that he can spend on public transport too.

Reputable Rog

Leonard Hofstadter wrote: »

Hildegarde IS responsible for roads, along with the other things that have been reported today. As per her Facebook page, she has special responsibility for 'international & road transport & logistics', so there is a roads minster as they promised. Hildegarde does take climate change very seriously, but unlike the Greens, she is quite pragmatic and sees how roads are part of the solution, not the problem. As you might expect for a Galway West Deputy, she has spoken in favour of the M6 bypass, so again I am cautiously optimistic that she will make sure the M20 (and fingers crossed the bypass) gets somewhere during the lifetime of the next Government.

Also, Paschal Donohue is the man in charge of the purse strings, he's said a few times since the election that the M20 is important.

It may be political posturing, but let's give them the benefit of the doubt for now. I also think for all Ryan's daft pronouncements, he is eminently more pragmatic and sensible than Catherine Martin.

He also said that it was Fine Gael’s preference to improve rail connections between Limerick and Cork which is just another way of saying that they’d prefer to do nothing.

Hibernicis

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

Getting back to the M20 it's interesting to see that there is no super junior minister for roads after all. The super junior is for "international transport and logistics" which sounds more like air and sea ports and ensuring that Brexit doesn't affect import and export routes.

So that leaves Eamon Ryan in charge of the roads budget.

I had exactly the same concern as you when I read the initial news reports. However Hildegarde Naughton's title, per Wikipedia and her own tweets, is Minister of State with responsibility for International and Road Transport and Logistics. That is subtly but significantly different to the version posted above and means that she very definitely should have a role in road planning. However this wouldn't be the first time where a lack of job description clarity led to a major turf war between a Minister and a Minister of State. It will be interesting to see her title (and brief) once the Department website is updated.

For what it’s worth, Hildegarde Naughton was interviewed on This Week (RTE Radio 1) today. She mentioned the 2:1 ratio and the need for new roads and went on to say that her brief is to ensure that Ireland has connectivity right across the island and to ensure that our cities have proper safe road infrastructure. Asked how this applied to Galway ring road she said this was part of the pfg and looked forward to the oral hearing process restarting shortly and then said “it is absolutely critical that we have infrastructure like the Galway Ring Road, like the M20, that we connect our cities across the country and this is part of my brief in relation to logistics and freight.”

I thought it was interesting that she mentioned the M20 unprompted. If nothing else, at least on her first day in the role she is aware of the political importance/sensitivity of this road which can only be a good thing.

The other positive as far as the M20 is concerned is Michael McGrath’s appointment to Public Expenditure and Reform. Neither Martin nor Coveney are likely to go out on a limb for the M20, however having watched McGrath in operation locally and nationally he is a shrewd operator and is very much guided by the “all politics is local” mantra. He will be looking to his “post Martin” future and seeing to build a strong and loyal following in Munster beyond his current constituency. The M20 is an ideal cause for him to embrace in this regard.

I have no affiliation with either of the above, but after all the negativity emanating form the Greens its important to highlight any chinks of light.

marno21

The above post is on the ball. Naughton's job will be catering for all the non-Green elements of Transport which will still need to be catered for given their strategic importance to the country and the country's economy.

Ryan can take care of public transport, walking and cycling. Naughton can take care of roads, air and sea.

Makes sense - Ryan will have a lot on his hands with climate action, communications (National Broadband Plan) and transport. It's too much entirely for one Minister.

This is quite a good outcome in my opinion. There is now a roads Minister at Cabinet.

riddlinrussell

marno21 wrote: »

The above post is on the ball. Naughton's job will be catering for all the non-Green elements of Transport which will still need to be catered for given their strategic importance to the country and the country's economy.

Ryan can take care of public transport, walking and cycling. Naughton can take care of roads, air and sea.

Makes sense - Ryan will have a lot on his hands with climate action, communications (National Broadband Plan) and transport. It's too much entirely for one Minister.

This is quite a good outcome in my opinion. There is now a roads Minister at Cabinet.

As a green I am very pleased there will be a minister looking after the roads, I have lamented the green policies regarding roads for a long time, often based on feeling over substance, M20 is a key project for safety and growth, I hope that Ryan being in place means the same rail link, and hopefully commuter options at each end, begin to happen too.

I'll reserve judgement on the Galway ring road, I think there are a lot of easy wins in the city centre they could put forward while it progresses and see if it helps at all.

Outside of those two I would like to see the roads focus shift specifically to safety improvements for a while, projects like the Tralee to Dingle 'de-hairpinning' and the N56 in Donegal offer a big value add in terms of safety without dramatically encouraging increased traffic hopefully.

Leonard Hofstadter

Both Michael McGrath and Simon Coveney saying that the M20 is 'protected' from the NDP review and therefore WILL be going ahead as planned:

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/cork-south-central-ministers-m20-motorway-will-be-built-1009247.html

With McGrath being Minister for Public Expenditure I'm more hopeful than I have been for a long time that this will be going ahead as planned!

Aontachtoir

Leonard Hofstadter wrote: »

Both Michael McGrath and Simon Coveney saying that the M20 is 'protected' from the NDP review and therefore WILL be going ahead as planned

Wonderful to see strong political commitment. Much needed and much deserved.

However, I remain concerned about the planning process. The M28 is still in appeals two years after planning was granted, with no end in sight, and the M20 has become political. If the Greens or their supporters decide they want to sink the M20, vexatious and frivolous appeals could hold it up in the courts for years.

quietsailor

It's not M20 news, more N20 but there is a re-alignment being planned for O'Rourkes cross.

Cork Trucker

quietsailor wrote: »

It's not M20 news, more N20 but there is a re-alignment being planned for O'Rourkes cross.

A roundabout, mooted for a good while now.

Cookiemunster

quietsailor wrote: »

It's not M20 news, more N20 but there is a re-alignment being planned for O'Rourkes cross.

And it's not actually news It's been known about for quite a while now. It went through the Part 8 planning process in 2017. They're now CPOing the necessary land so that they can build it.

JamesBond2010

Cork Trucker wrote: »

A roundabout, mooted for a good while now.

The Speed van lives there @ the cross.:cool: least it might slow down traffic & save a few crashes that roundabout

Cork Trucker

JamesBond2010 wrote: »

The Speed van lives there @ the cross.:cool: least it might slow down traffic & save a few crashes that roundabout

Yup, parked in the bus stop

Bass Reeves

Cork Trucker wrote: »

A roundabout, mooted for a good while now.

It says something that the solution to an accident blackspot on a road between the second and third city of a country is a roundabout

Cork Trucker

Bass Reeves wrote: »

It says something that the solution to an accident blackspot on a road between the second and third city of a country is a roundabout

I don’t know what’s more laughable, installing a roundabout at O’Rourkes Cross or closing the Main Street in Buttevant for a horse fair.

JamesBond2010

Cork Trucker wrote: »

I don’t know what’s more laughable, installing a roundabout at O’Rourkes Cross or closing the Main Street in Buttevant for a horse fair.

Least it will make getti g out of petrol station easier.:D bets on how long before so one goes straight over roundabout:p:p

Isambard

Roundabout could make the traffic worse . The Mallow Station one can cause tailbacks on the N72.