M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

marno21

This job was originally planned as part of the original M20 project

Might knock a million off the price tag. The R518 West approach to this roundabout was to be an M20 access route so a roundabout was always going to be necessary. If a similar M20 routing is chosen it will be still relevant.

raindodger

marno21 wrote: »

This job was originally planned as part of the original M20 project

Might knock a million off the price tag. The R518 West approach to this roundabout was to be an M20 access route so a roundabout was always going to be necessary. If a similar M20 routing is chosen it will be still relevant.

Cant see how as the planned road was well to the west of this junction

pajoguy

raindodger wrote: »

Cant see how as the planned road was well to the west of this junction

A lot of people from banogue to rourkes cross will use this to access the new m20 so its key that a roundabout is here. The junction is not safe no matter the volumes of traffic.

marno21

Tender out for site invesigation works for the project

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/170325/1/0

Tender notice confirms option selection will take place in Q4 2020/Q1 2021 and work on the preferred option will commence in 2021 into 2022.

Expect route options to be published in late Q3/early Q4 under that plan.

spacetweek

No sense of urgency.

Reputable Rog

Drove through Buttevant today on the day of the Cahirmee horse fair, what a pleasure, the whole place fenced off and cops everywhere.
But most importantly, no fair. Every cloud and all that.

Cork Trucker

Planning permission halted/extended by 10 miles in width along M20 corridor

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/m20-corridor-puts-brakes-on-planning-permissions-1010995.html

Cookiemunster

Light rail? Is another councillor talking through their hoop? I'm pretty sure the Charleville to Limerick heavy rail connection is the only rail being looked at as part of the project.

Cork Trucker

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Light rail? Is another councillor talking through their hoop? I'm pretty sure the Charleville to Limerick heavy rail connection is the only rail being looked at as part of the project.

Have to massage those green egos by agreeing to it.

Isambard

sixty mile light rail journey wouldn't be my choice

AugustusMinimus

Intercity light rail lol. What idiot Councillor put that forward?

snotboogie

It looks to me like the Project team have widened the route, not a Councillor. Or maybe I am missing something?

Fine Gael councillor Liam Madden told a meeting of Cork County Council that the original route corridor selected in 2008 has been widened significantly by the Limerick-based M20 Project Team. The council heard this is to accommodate the possibility of building a light rail system in the years ahead which would run close to the motorway. Mr Madden said the project team is advising people seeking planning permission within the new route corridor that their application is “premature” until the exact routes for both the motorway and light rail are finally decided.

Bass Reeves

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Intercity light rail lol. What idiot Councillor put that forward?

I say the light rail will be from Charlesville to Limerick, or else they are considering putting in dedicated park and rides along it.

10 mile wide corridor sterilised if along the whole corridor it's 450-500 square miles of land with no planning this will include towns and villages along the route. It's over the top and the implementation body would want to get there finger out and hurry up the process.

This will effect small business and farms that have expansion plans. I imagine it's the NTA more than a councillor request

mdmix

Is this meant to be for rapid transit as opposed to light rail? or is it light rail at either end of the m20 and not the whole way?

Sam Russell

It makes no sense to build a new alignment for Cork to Limerick when the existing line via Limerick Junction only adds 20 km. Better to double track Limerick to LJ, and speed the line up while they are at it. Then reform Limerick Junction itself to make it a fully functioning junction.

Now it would make some sense to build commuter local services at each end, but not the whole length.

There is nothing stopping a frequent Limerick - Cork service to build a customer base. They can do it for Ennis to Athenry.

This motorway needs to be built ASAP. Adding this rail business will delay it.

Cookiemunster

snotboogie wrote: »

It looks to me like the Project team have widened the route, not a Councillor. Or maybe I am missing something?

Yes, everyone is well aware of that, but the Councillor brought light rail to the mix.

Pete_Cavan

Is this simply the widening of the study area as announced in the last Project Update with somebody thinking "rail-based options" means light rail?

What will most likely happen is the M20 is route selection will identify a route along the existing N20 corridor but also recommend upgrades to the Cork - Limerick train service. IE have already started the process of removing seven level crossings on the line, I wouldn't be surprised if this sometimes gets presented as investment in improving PT between Cork and Limerick even though it has little to do with it. Further improvements at Limerick Junction possibly too as a sop to public transport and keeping the Greens on board.

riddlinrussell

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Is this simply the widening of the study area as announced in the last Project Update with somebody thinking "rail-based options" means light rail?

What will most likely happen is the M20 is route selection will identify a route along the existing N20 corridor but also recommend upgrades to the Cork - Limerick train service. IE have already started the process of removing seven level crossings on the line, I wouldn't be surprised if this sometimes gets presented as investment in improving PT between Cork and Limerick even though it has little to do with it. Further improvements at Limerick Junction possibly too as a sop to public transport and keeping the Greens on board.

The lack of dual track from LJ to Limerick is mad to be honest, I think it would be a great benefit to get that done as part of the 'Cork to Limerick Scheme'

Sam Russell

riddlinrussell wrote: »

The lack of dual track from LJ to Limerick is mad to be honest, I think it would be a great benefit to get that done as part of the 'Cork to Limerick Scheme'

It should be done anyway on its own merit.

IR should schedule direct Cork Limerick trains to build the business, with promotional fares, and good schedules, so that any business there is goes by train.

If they double track, they should improve the line to get faster transit speeds.

AugustusMinimus

Was LJ to Limerick previously double track meaning no bridge widening a etc would be required?

Calina

riddlinrussell wrote: »

The lack of dual track from LJ to Limerick is mad to be honest, I think it would be a great benefit to get that done as part of the 'Cork to Limerick Scheme'

Uh, not if it delays the M20. The route between Limerick and Limerick Junction is nowhere near any of the likely M20 routing, and iirc, the last selected route was west of Charleville. Cannot see it changing so significantly. I cannot see any benefit of trying to join that to the M20 project.

Sam Russell

Calina wrote: »

Uh, not if it delays the M20. The route between Limerick and Limerick Junction is nowhere near any of the likely M20 routing, and iirc, the last selected route was west of Charleville. Cannot see it changing so significantly. I cannot see any benefit of trying to join that to the M20 project.

The only point would be to offer a fig leaf to the Greens in that a better train option between Cork and Limerick could be a quick win for them.

Shortage of rolling stock might be a problem, but still - plans can be published. Removal of any level crossings, and identify any other works for double tracking including signalling and bridge widening. Passing loops could be a temporary work around.

If it is announced, the M20 can proceed with haste with the blessing on the Greens.

Pete_Cavan

The current process is to determine the best way to link Cork and Limerick. It is clear from the last Project Update I linked earlier that rail-based options are also part of the consideration and this we prior to the Greens being part of government. The process will almost inevitably identified the optimal solution as motorway along roughly the same route as previously identified and a few upgrades to the rail line to keep everyone happy. The rail-based doesn't have to be new track, almost certainly won't.

Is there really much benefit in double tracking Limerick to LJ? I can't see how to will ever carry anything other than a few intercity services, there is no population along it for commuter services. Into Limerick already has double track, a well positioned passing loop would probably give most of the benefits at much lower cost. Further upgrades to LJ itself would be a better use of funds.

Sam Russell

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The current process is to determine the best way to link Cork and Limerick. It is clear from the last Project Update I linked earlier that rail-based options are also part of the consideration and this we prior to the Greens being part of government. The process will almost inevitably identified the optimal solution as motorway along roughly the same route as previously identified and a few upgrades to the rail line to keep everyone happy. The rail-based doesn't have to be new track, almost certainly won't.

Is there really much benefit in double tracking Limerick to LJ? I can't see how to will ever carry anything other than a few intercity services, there is no population along it for commuter services. Into Limerick already has double track, a well positioned passing loop would probably give most of the benefits at much lower cost. Further upgrades to LJ itself would be a better use of funds.

The upgrade of the L to LJ line is only needed as optics for the GP to allow the M20 to go ahead. It is the provision of Intercity L to C services that is important but the lack of rolling stock is crucial.

Let us hope they accept that planning for rail is enough to allow the M20 to proceed with great haste.

Bass Reeves

Sam Russell wrote: »

The upgrade of the L to LJ line is only needed as optics for the GP to allow the M20 to go ahead. It is the provision of Intercity L to C services that is important but the lack of rolling stock is crucial.

Let us hope they accept that planning for rail is enough to allow the M20 to proceed with great haste.

The problem with the idea of an intercity service is the failure to grasp that 80% of the traffic on the N20 originates on the N20. End to end is not a huge volume of traffic. You then have to understand that most traffic is not going to either city center, On the Cork side it is often going into Ringaskiddy, Little Island or out to Ballincollig, you do however have the offices developments on the South Mall and on Alberts Quay. The university is about a mile from the city center As well CUH is well outside the center of the city.

However on the other side in Limerick the city center is a virtual desert for larger businesses, you have the large Ind Est in Raheen and Castletroy ( the factories here are spread over nearly two miles) as well as smaller sized one along Childers road, UHL (hospital) in Raheen. To add to that you have UL in Castletroy. Finally you have Shannon Airport 15 miles out from the Tunnell which solved access to it.

The idea that a train track will manage to encourage commuters away from cars is not realistic, a structured bus service might encourage some to leave the cars behind

Pete_Cavan

Bass Reeves wrote: »

The problem with the idea of an intercity service is the failure to grasp that 80% of the traffic on the N20 originates on the N20. End to end is not a huge volume of traffic.

...

The idea that a train track will manage to encourage commuters away from cars is not realistic, a structured bus service might encourage some to leave the cars behind

Nobody is failing to grasp that. As I said earlier, the current process is also considering rail-based options with the almost certain outcome to be some relatively low cost upgrades to the existing rail lines while a new motorway is built along the N20 route. I don't think anyone is suggesting that rail could remove the need for the motorway (apart from a few ideologically blinkered Greens).

Most of the rail line between Cork and Limerick is also the Cork - Dublin line, any upgrades to it would have plenty of benefit. An improved rail service between Cork and Limerick (even if it involves a change of train) is a good ambition, even if it doesn't take a huge number of commuters away from cars.

Pete_Cavan

Sam Russell wrote: »

The upgrade of the L to LJ line is only needed as optics for the GP to allow the M20 to go ahead. It is the provision of Intercity L to C services that is important but the lack of rolling stock is crucial.

Let us hope they accept that planning for rail is enough to allow the M20 to proceed with great haste.

Like I said, I'd expect some of the already planned improvements to the line between Cork and LJ to be presented as the rail-based element of the project while they build the M20.

Bass Reeves

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Nobody is failing to grasp that. As I said earlier, the current process is also considering rail-based options with the almost certain outcome to be some relatively low cost upgrades to the existing rail lines while a new motorway is built along the N20 route. I don't think anyone is suggesting that rail could remove the need for the motorway (apart from a few ideologically blinkered Greens).

Most of the rail line between Cork and Limerick is also the Cork - Dublin line, any upgrades to it would have plenty of benefit. An improved rail service between Cork and Limerick (even if it involves a change of train) is a good ambition, even if it doesn't take a huge number of commuters away from cars.

I fail to see the idea that throwing money at a public transportation system that will serve no benefit is a good ambition. If that money was used improving bus services between the two cities and from towns along the route it would be much more beneficial.

We saw this with the Limerick to Galway rail service, usage figures do not justify the spend. That money if redirected to other transport projects give the area's a much better public transport system.

Pete_Cavan

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I fail to see the idea that throwing money at a public transportation system that will serve no benefit is a good ambition. If that money was used improving bus services between the two cities and from towns along the route it would be much more beneficial.

We saw this with the Limerick to Galway rail service, usage figures do not justify the spend. That money if redirected to other transport projects give the area's a much better public transport system.

You see no benefits in upgrades to the rail line which connects Cork to Dublin and Limerick? It is upgrades to existing operational infrastructure so not comparable to the WRC project.

Bass Reeves

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

You see no benefits in upgrades to the rail line which connects Cork to Dublin and Limerick? It is upgrades to existing operational infrastructure so not comparable to the WRC project.

WRC is a waste of money. For rail you need population density. You need to be shifting 3-400 people at the time and for commuting you need regular service not 2-3 a day each way. As well you need to get people to there place of work nearly as fast or faster than by car. This includes waiting times between trips. Finally it has to be competitively priced.