M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

spacetweek

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

It doesnt, as it had already been postponed. I dont believe its cancelled, unlike some other stuff. It'll be taken through the statutory processes but wont be built until post 2015 and some recovery.

Both sections are still PPPs but at a ballpark figure I dont think the whole of the M20 will be open until about 2020.

It's not cancelled and neither is anything else. A large number of schemes are "suspended" though, which means there'll be no progress until they get reactivated. But they will, cause they're still essential and haven't suddenly stopped being so just because of a recession. Plenty of other countries have no money either but it doesn't seem to stop them.

tharlear

Plenty of other countries have no money either but it doesn't seem to stop them.

Other countries have long term year on year plans for infrastructure.

Also many countries use large scale infrastructure project as stimulus packages during economic downturns. This results in lower construction cost and the infrastructure is then in place when the upswing occurs.

Instead of squandering money in the good times like berty/cowen(irl) brown(uk) bush(USA) with give away tax cuts, the smarter squirrel take the surplus and puts it in a rainy day fund to cover expenditure during economic downturns.

However this amy not work in Ireland as the invested money would just be used to pay dole and government employees.

A national infrastructure investment bank which would receive x% of GDP every year would possibly be able to even out infrastructure investment over the economic cycle

DWCommuter

tharlear wrote: »

Other countries have long term year on year plans for infrastructure.

Also many countries use large scale infrastructure project as stimulus packages during economic downturns. This results in lower construction cost and the infrastructure is then in place when the upswing occurs.

Instead of squandering money in the good times like berty/cowen(irl) brown(uk) bush(USA) with give away tax cuts, the smarter squirrel take the surplus and puts it in a rainy day fund to cover expenditure during economic downturns.

However this amy not work in Ireland as the invested money would just be used to pay dole and government employees.

A national infrastructure investment bank which would receive x% of GDP every year would possibly be able to even out infrastructure investment over the economic cycle

And your post inadvertently explains why public transport projects took so long to even reach the table and why many are on hold and delayed. We gave the money away to the people so they could splurge and never thought about infrastructure that could set us up nicely for the future, in the event of a recession. Tax cuts and welfare increases are vote grabbers. Public transport isn't on the Irish TD map.

Im way off topic, but god bless the M20. Badly needed. More needed than the Gort - Tuam project and herein lies another example of parish pump politics.

Does anyone in Ireland understand the word....wait for it.......... PRIORITY.

Wild Bill

Have to but my hand up here DW. I do understand the word.

ps - anyone else find that brat in the bottom right corner holding messages for her wheezing Mum very irritating?

corktina

Priority? that means "me first" dont it?

tharlear

Maybe I should have put this on the m6 thread or a new thread, can one of the mod please move it should be somewhere else

Priority? That means "me first" don’t it?

That’s politics, it about getting re-elected. So a euro for my county is better for 10 euro for your county, because I don't "take the metro", "drive on motorways" "take the train" "fly out of Shannon", "fly out of Dublin". Anything done there is a waste of time and money as I cannot see how it put money in my pocket today.

Your priority is somebody else NIMBY.
Getting back to roads m20 etc.

How does one priorities different projects (give the above)?

Looking at Wesley Johnston northern road site I came across a very interesting page.
http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/roads/motorwaysections.html
It lists the major project in the north over the last 50 years with (2009 equivalent costs).
The numbers come out to approx 1.1 billion in today’s money.
I was trying to put a similar list together for the rest of Ireland but it just became to difficult, so I concentrated on the first MIU completed (m4-m6 to Galway)
Here is what I came up with. No equivalent costs and I am probably missing some schemes on the 80 and 90, such as Aughrim bypass

Section opening date Type Length Km cost Millions M Ad cost Upgraded
Huston station to
Chapelizod 1990 D2
Palmerstown 1984 D2 1987/1994/2008
Lucan 1998 D2
Leixlip, Maynooth, Kilcock 1994 D2M
Enfield, Kinnegad Dec-05 D2 39km

Kinnegad-Tyrellspass KTK phase1 5-Dec-06 dual carriageway 28km 533M
Tyrellspass-Kilbeggan KTK phase 2 16-May-07dual carriageway (28 533)
Kilbeggan-Athlone 16-Jul-08 dual carriageway 29Km
Athlone bypass 13-Jun-05 dual carriageway 2010
Athlone-Ballinasloe 23-Jul-09 Motorway 19.4Km 210M
Ballinasloe-Galway 18-Dec-09 Motorway 56Km 427M
Galway-bypass 202? Motorway 21km ??? ???





N4 Palmerstown Bypass D2 1984
N4 Carrick On Shannon Inner Relief Road S2 1984
N4 Lucan Bypass D2 1988
N4 Chapelizod Bypass D2 1990
N4 Mullingar Bypass D2 1994
N4 Longford Bypass S2 1995
N4 Drumsna-Jamestown Bypass S2 1996
N4 Colooney-Ballysadare Bypass D2 1998
N4 Boyle Bypass/Curlews Bypass S2 1998
N4 Sligo Inner Relief Road D2 2006
N4 Edgeworthstown Bypass S2 2007
N4 Roosky-Dromod Bypass D2+2 2008

M4 Leixlip/Maynooth/Kilcock Bypass D2M 1994
M4 Kilcock - Kinnegad D2M 2005

N6 Ballinasloe Inner Relief Road S2 1984
N6 Ornanmore Bypass D2 1986
N6 Athlone Bypass D2 1991
N6 Loughrea Bypass S2 2006

M6 Miltownpass-Rochfortbridge Bypass D2M 2006
M6 Tyrrellspass Bypass D2M 2007
M6 Moate Bypass D2M 2008

The m6 almost add up to what they spend in the north over 50 years (I know economic people will have a fit when they see this type of claim, but as much as they claim that it is, economics it not a based on science like engineering)

L1011

Most of the N4 schemes you've listed aren't on the MIU segment of it (which is from Heuston to Kinnegad only) but are on the northern reaches; was that an accidental copy and paste of the entire M4/M6 list from somewhere?

tharlear

was that an accidental copy and paste of the entire M4/M6 list from somewhere?

Yes and I cannot remember where I found it. Might have been on the NRA site. It’s more complete than what I had put together, was on the spread sheet below what I wanted to post.
Just wanted to start with one motorway and put together a list of project from 1990 to the completion of first interurban m6.
After that it would be possible to add pre 1990 schemes, and possibly other schemes.

Route: scheme name: opening date: length: cost:
The bigger schemes in the last 10 years, the info is available in different sites
Also I'm not familiar with all the smaller schemes on the section of road over the last 20 years.

As stated in previous post, I was impressed with the page on Wesley Johnston site that list the major projects in the north. Just thought putting together something similar would be interesting and possibly useful for looking back at what was achieved during the “Ireland on crack years” otherwise know as the celtic tiger years.

DWCommuter

corktina wrote: »

Priority? that means "me first" dont it?

Only in politics.

corktina

DWCommuter wrote: »

Only in politics.

not on the roads then?

tharlear

list was from sabre site put together by Enceladus. He says on the sabre site he is updating it but Icannot find it

T Corolla

Would it not be better to upgrade the connection from Limerick to the M8 at Cahir. A 52km stretch would be alot cheaper than 100km stretch

mk6705

T Corolla wrote: »

Would it not be better to upgrade the connection from Limerick to the M8 at Cahir. A 52km stretch would be alot cheaper than 100km stretch

No, but that road should be upgraded to 2+2 when finance permits. The N20 is an important route. As well as linking Cork to Limerick, it also links Cork to Galway. It links Mallow to Cork aswell. The existing N20 is in terrible condition and not fit for purpose at all.

Amtmann

Some news:

PEOPLE living in a north Cork town are celebrating victory after successfully persuading the authorities to give them a direct access route to a planned €800 million motorway.

The motorway’s planners had decided not to provide a junction to Buttevant, which was to be the only town along the 80km Cork-Limerick motorway not have a connection to the road.

However, townsfolk mobilised and presented a forceful argument for a connection when they put their case to a lengthy oral hearing held by Bord Pleanála last July.

They said that such a decision would have put the town at a huge economic disadvantage, especially as the proposed nearest junction connections were to be at Charleville and Mallow, both of which are about 10km from Buttevant.

They also pointed out that the objective of the County Development Plan (CDP) was to reverse the town’s population decline.

It stands at just more than 900, but the CDP envisages this will rise to 1,500 by 2020.

McCutcheon Mulcahy consultants acting for locals stressed that the lack of a proper motorway connection would stifle population growth and industrial development.

The board of Bord Pleanála has now written to motorway planners telling them to build a junction which will serve Buttevant and nearby Doneraile.

The board has also asked the road designers to submit plans for the interchange and other minor alterations as soon as possible.

Solicitor Matt Nagle, chairman of the group which fought for the junction link, said he "hugely welcomed" the decision.

"We saw the provision of such a junction as absolutely critical for the future viability and development of Buttevant and its hinterland and put enormous time and resources into making that case at the oral hearing held on the M20," Mr Nagle said.

"This decision is a great outcome for the town and for rural areas generally. It recognises that motorways should serve and benefit all the community, urban and rural, large and small," he added.

Deputy Ned O’Keeffe, who backed the people of Buttevant at the oral hearing, said he welcomed the news.

"This is a vote of confidence in people power in Buttevant and Doneraile," Deputy O’Keeffe said.

This story appeared in the printed version of the Irish Examiner Thursday, January 06, 2011


Read more: http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/town-wins-fight-for-junction-with-800m-motorway-141210.html#ixzz1ADVrlwwx

L1011

De Paper thinking a motorway junction is a "minor alteration", oh god....

CDP or no CDP, Buttevant is too small to get a junction. What are the odds of another tiny LILO?

marmurr1916

MYOB wrote: »

De Paper thinking a motorway junction is a "minor alteration", oh god....

CDP or no CDP, Buttevant is too small to get a junction. What are the odds of another tiny LILO?

Agreed. Since when is a place with a population of 900 people a town? There are individual housing estates on Cork's southside with far bigger populations. Should they each get an exit from the SRR?

Amtmann

At the outset, I should say that on the whole I am not in favour of a junction for Buttevant. I don't think it would be a disaster if one were included, except insofar as it might set a precedent for every backwater to fight for a junction when a motorway is proposed nearby.

Now, in the "the NRA must be stopped" thread, w2 3v was castigated for focusing only on the population of Tuam. It was pointed out to him that Tuam was not the be all and end all; that it had a hinterland, etc. Well, what of Buttevant's hinterland? What of Doneraile (another settlement that is far from a hub of activity) and surrounding one-offs? Does anyone know how much these factors would contribute to the population using the proposed Buttevant junction?

Hogzy

How much on average would a junction like this cost?

Chris_5339762

I'm 50/50 for a Buttevant junction.

Obviously in the Grand Scheme of Things, a motorway should not have a junction there, it just isnt big enough.

That said, in the context of the M20 and Irish motorways, it probably should have one. Given the size of towns on the route, it seemed like a bit of an omission.

And to everyone saying that junctions shouldnt exist for it, dont forget Barefield on the M18 has one, even though its smaller than Buttevant.

I dunno, I guess its good in the long term but it wont be used much.

Edit: Actually its interesting that for once, an Oral Hearing is based on "add a junction please" rather than ceaseless whinging about the scheme from grumpy farmers who stand to benefit from CPOs.

KerranJast

The parents place is in Kanturk so selfishly I'd love Buttevant to have a junction so I wouldn't have to drive to Charleville or Mallow to get on the Mway for Limerick/Cork respectively, but if its going to be cost prohibitive and delay the road even further then it not high priority tbh.

Amtmann

KerranJast wrote: »

but if its going to be cost prohibitive and delay the road even further then it not high priority tbh.

The good thing about this is that I don't think it can delay the road, since it probably won't start construction for another 5 years.

Hogzy

Furet wrote: »

The good thing about this is that I don't think it can delay the road, since it probably won't start construction for another 5 years.

According to 96FM its starting next year :rolleyes:

Amtmann

Hogzy wrote: »

According to 96FM its starting next year :rolleyes:

That is most unlikely. No mention of it in the recent Four-Year Plan or budget, both of which were pretty specific about what would go ahead into 2014.

Hogzy

Furet wrote: »

That is most unlikely. No mention of it in the recent Four-Year Plan or budget, both of which were pretty specific about what would go ahead into 2014.

Oh i know. id love to know where 96FM got their source. Although Neil Prendeville has a good bit of pull these days he might know someone willing to lend him a hand when it comes to information about road projects.

Sponge Bob

I remember someone from Buttevant posting (possibly in this thread ??) and as the road south from there is utterly cack I advised them to go for a limited movement junction ( inbound south outbound north) to an R road east of the town...I thought they had plenty of choice northbound towards Charleville and further afield.

I still feel that would be proportionate.

Chris_5339762

I always wonder how much money they actually save building half junctions. They just seem like the most pointless things ever, where people living near it can go south easily say, but have to drive 20km on the old road to go north on it.

Just seems silly, if you're building a junction you may as well build the whole thing. Cant cost **that** much more (proportionately) than a half junction.

up them Schteps

Hogzy wrote: »

Although Neil Prendeville has a good bit of pull these days he might know someone willing to lend him a hand......

Cough cough!

-Corkie-

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

I always wonder how much money they actually save building half junctions. They just seem like the most pointless things ever, where people living near it can go south easily say, but have to drive 20km on the old road to go north on it.

Just seems silly, if you're building a junction you may as well build the whole thing. Cant cost **that** much more (proportionately) than a half junction.

I know its like them god damm LILOS.

corktina

KerranJast wrote: »

The parents place is in Kanturk so selfishly I'd love Buttevant to have a junction so I wouldn't have to drive to Charleville or Mallow to get on the Mway for Limerick/Cork respectively, but if its going to be cost prohibitive and delay the road even further then it not high priority tbh.

The road from kanturk to both Charleville and mallow is better than that to Buttevant IMHO. The one benefit surely this will bring is to move the charleville junction (which is a good bit south of the townand quite close to any likely Buttevant Junc) to the north of it where it will be more conveniant from Kanturk et al.

Wild Bill

Furet wrote: »

At the outset, I should say that on the whole I am not in favour of a junction for Buttevant....it might set a precedent for every backwater to fight for a junction when a motorway is proposed nearby.

Furet, you are one brave hombre!

How can you suggest Buttevant is a backwater?:eek::eek::eek: