M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

Hibernicis

The thought of breaking this into two or three projects is nuts**. There is absolutely no benefit whatsoever in doing this. This thinking stems from the time the country hadn't a bob to it's name, and in order to be seeing to be doing something the county councils would pull together a few quid and widen a stretch a few miles long, which then narrowed dangerously back into a boreen and created an instant accident blackspot. As Sam succinctly pointed out (post #7012) road and infrastructure projects in this country take far far too long to move from conception to realisation. (And he forgot to add in the three or four years that Court appeals add to the process). If this project is split into two or three separate projects, we are guaranteed that these will run serially (one after another) and take forever to complete.

The last thing we need is a bit of motorway, with another two bits to come later. Nobody who lived through the serial bypassing of Naas, Newbridge, Monastrevin with the logjam being pushed a few miles down the road each decade will understand the awfulness of this prospect. There appears to be no understanding whatsoever of the concept of Capital Expenditure in the public sector in this country. And this fear and lack of understanding of the benefits of borrowing for infrastructure and writing off over a long period has a horrendous impact.

And further, splitting it into multiple parts will not save one single cent - quite the opposite, it would likely result in a significant escalation of the cost, especially if it is used to string the full project out over decades.

The NRA/TII was established to take National Trunk Road construction out of the hands of the willing but incapable hands of the County Councils. What an irony it would be if the end result is to have control of projects such as this placed in the unwilling and incredibly incapable hands of an arrogant uninformed amateur like the current minister.

(**Splitting the construction phase into a number of different contracts is a different thing, and may be desirable to manage cost and de-risk the construction phase, so long as the overall project remains and progresses as one)

snotboogie

ongarboy wrote: »

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/m20-motorway-bill-careers-more-than-1bn-off-track-2fqqhcbwd

Eamon Ryan now saying project could cost up to €3 billion!! He says the money should be spent on investing in Limerick and Cork cities rather than the connecting of them!

Paywall article unfortunately.

Same guy who campaigned against the extension of a metro in Dublin wants to invest 3 billion in Cork and Limerick cities.... If this was actually on the table it would be worth discussing but the same as his metro to Tallaght its a fantasy to distract from blocking a major capital project.

hans aus dtschl

Hibernicis wrote: »

There appears to be no understanding whatsoever of the concept of Capital Expenditure in the public sector in this country. And this fear and lack of understanding of the benefits of borrowing for infrastructure and writing off over a long period has a horrendous impact.

I just want to say I don't blame "the public sector", as the likes of the NTA, TII etc aren't the ones causing these problems from what I can see.
It seems to be politicians and politics mostly: from blocking necessary motorways to not providing no-brainer pedestrian and cycle infrastructure.
Maybe my perspective is wrong, it's just my perspective.

On the M20, I agree that Mallow-Charleville would be my "most urgent" piece too, followed closely by Mallow-Cork. Charleville-Patrickswell would be slightly lower down the priority list for me.

But it still makes no sense as piecemeal projects. Fine if it can be opened piecemeal, but not piecemeal projects.

SeanW

I decided not to give the Greens a preference in the last election because of their bizarre stance on the Southern portion of the Dublin Metro. If, having killed half of the Metro, Ryan and his merry band are now going after the M20, that would be disappointing, but alas, not surprising.

AugustusMinimus

Could someone explain. What are all the protests about the M20 route from Blarney to Mallow if it is an online build?

hans aus dtschl

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Could someone explain. What are all the protests about the M20 route from Blarney to Mallow if it is an online build?

Well I don't know who's protesting or why, but an online build would see L-plates and other non-M users with a messy journey.
Maybe locals on that secondary route are protesting?

KrisW1001

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Could someone explain. What are all the protests about the M20 route from Blarney to Mallow if it is an online build?

The wider land-take, and removal of junctions along the route: N20 might not have many houses fronting onto it, but there are quite a few small junctions.

The removal of junctions is a big deal, as Blarney and Mallow are major dormitory towns for Cork, and there will be more than one land-holder who will lose their long-term bet on having lands zoned for development if the current road becomes a motorway rather than the collector/distributor road for an offline motorway.

(My personal theory is that the opposition to M28 was bankrolled by one or more people who held lands that would be made worthless by the current N28 corridor becoming a motorway, but which had lots of potential for development if N28 remained a general-purpose road. Nothing else makes any rational sense.)

cgcsb

SeanW wrote: »

I decided not to give the Greens a preference in the last election because of their bizarre stance on the Southern portion of the Dublin Metro. If, having killed half of the Metro, Ryan and his merry band are now going after the M20, that would be disappointing, but alas, not surprising.

I couldn't put a number next them last time around.
Their anti-public transport stance in Dublin and their anti dense residential development in Dublin would point towards the 'green' thing as being a throw-away adjective. They're actively opposed to projects that reduce human's environmental impact. Their ideology is more like blank slate profiteering globalism and you can see how their members are abandoning the party by the dozen as a result.

They also have an anti-environmental energy policy of banning exploration for new gas. The same gas that makes our wind based grid possible, is a highly efficient and low emissions fuel, has no practical alternative with present technology and that we'll have to import from oppressive regimes if we cannot produce our own. I don't know if they're being paid to conspire against efforts to promote sustainability or if they don't understand the issues that they are weighing in on.

Bass Reeves

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

I just want to say I don't blame "the public sector", as the likes of the NTA, TII etc aren't the ones causing these problems from what I can see.
It seems to be politicians and politics mostly: from blocking necessary motorways to not providing no-brainer pedestrian and cycle infrastructure.
Maybe my perspective is wrong, it's just my perspective.

On the M20, I agree that Mallow-Charleville would be my "most urgent" piece too, followed closely by Mallow-Cork. Charleville-Patrickswell would be slightly lower down the priority list for me.

But it still makes no sense as piecemeal projects. Fine if it can be opened piecemeal, but not piecemeal projects.

There is no need to do the.motorway piecemeal. It is not an extra large project. Portlaois to Limerick was.one contract about 70 miles of motorway. The reason it was opened in sections was mainly down to an issue between Birdhill and Limerick where they struggled with getting grounding when pile driving.

Yes Limerick to Galway was opened in Sections but that again was due to funding as we hit the recession. It's an 84 Km section of road. It is pretty straight forward with online build from Patrick well to beyond Croom and going into Blarney from end of the lane and half. I expect about 7-10 million/ KM it will cost 600-900 million.

Problem with the Greens is they have copy and pasted green agendas from other countries and applied them to Ireland. Why ban gas exploration and continue to import it. Why impose nuclear energy.

We are a country with low population density and we need to understand that. By all.means try to plan to stop rural one off housing but the answer is not to expect everyone to ride a bike to work in weather like we got last week

cjpm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

There is no need to do the.motorway piecemeal. It is not an extra large project. Portlaois to Limerick was.one contract about 70 miles of motorway. The reason it was opened in sections was mainly down to an issue between Birdhill and Limerick where they struggled with getting grounding

You’re wrong about that I’m afraid. It was done in 3 completely different contracts which were put out for tender at three different times. Portlaoise to Castletown. Castletown to Nenagh. Nenagh to Limerick. Normally the contracts were approximately 40km. There was issues with the 3rd scheme due to an area of bog.

Ballinasloe to Galway was the longest single scheme in the country. 53km.

In 2010 Cork to Limerick was to be split into 2 schemes approx 40km each

cjpm

When the M8 to Cork was built it was also subdivided into schemes less than 40km.

Bass Reeves

cjpm wrote: »

You’re wrong about that I’m afraid. It was done in 3 completely different contracts which were put out for tender at three different times. Portlaoise to Castletown. Castletown to Nenagh. Nenagh to Limerick. Normally the contracts were approximately 40km. There was issues with the 3rd scheme due to an area of bog.

Ballinasloe to Galway was the longest single scheme in the country. 53km.

In 2010 Cork to Limerick was to be split into 2 schemes approx 40km each

But they all went to tender together not piecemeal which some are suggesting we do with Patrickwell to Blarney route. Problem with that is you would need three different planning processes. When planning is approved NRA has 12-18 months of this to start squiring land. They cannot start and acquire Charlesville to Mallow and in 2-3 years time.start the process of acquiring Mallow to Blarney.

Jayuu

Really there's no reason to split this and there should be considerable pushback against the "pluck figures out of the air to make it sound expensive" approach that Eamon Ryan is doing. This is clearly an agenda to make the road sound way too expensive and generate negativity to it. This is the exact same thing that happened originally with the Dublin Metro where the "4 billion for a link to the airport" label got attached to it despite the fact that the Metro was planned to be far more than just an airport link.

People need to have the facts at their disposal. The route is around 80km long and while I'm not sure what the cost per km of motorway is (somebody might supply that) surely there is no way that it would be €25-€35 million per km which is what would get to a €2-3bn estimate.

cjpm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

But they all went to tender together not piecemeal which some are suggesting we do with Patrickwell to Blarney route. Problem with that is you would need three different planning processes. When planning is approved NRA has 12-18 months of this to start squiring land. They cannot start and acquire Charlesville to Mallow and in 2-3 years time.start the process of acquiring Mallow to Blarney.

Ok. What you’re referring to is getting through the planning process. Which is quite rightly being done all together. No one is suggesting that that is split. So one oral hearing and one set of CPO’s.

When it’s being put out to TENDER for construction it will most likely be split in 2 to reduce the risk to the tax payer. Probably 3 to 6 months between them to give the companies tendering a chance to price them.

M7 schemes did not go to tender all together.
It’s not in the clients best interest

Eamonn Ryan is only interested in stopping this scheme. Hence those cost estimate figures that he pulled from his Avocado encrusted arsehole

KrisW1001

The 110 km length of M9 was split into two tenders (North and South), but was built in four sections: Carlow Bypass, Kilcullen-Carlow, Knocktopher-Waterford, and Carlow-Knocktopher.

This road looks like it could to be split into three when it gets to actual construction: a northern section to Limerick, a southern one to Blarney, and the Mallow Bypass as a contract on its own. Mallow is going to need the same kind of expensive river crossing over the Blackwater as the Fermoy bypass did, plus links to N72 and/or N73.

marno21

This would be a massive job for one contractor. Far more likely to be a consortium like the M17/M18 of tendered in one contract (that was Roadbridge/Sisk/Lagan iirc)

Pete_Cavan

I still think that the whole M/N20 should go through planning but then the online upgrade southern section should be bundled with the Cork NNR. Having the M20 end at Blarney will create a whole new set of problems.

Reputable Rog

KrisW1001 wrote: »

The wider land-take, and removal of junctions along the route: N20 might not have many houses fronting onto it, but there are quite a few small junctions.

The removal of junctions is a big deal, as Blarney and Mallow are major dormitory towns for Cork, and there will be more than one land-holder who will lose their long-term bet on having lands zoned for development if the current road becomes a motorway rather than the collector/distributor road for an offline motorway.

(My personal theory is that the opposition to M28 was bankrolled by one or more people who held lands that would be made worthless by the current N28 corridor becoming a motorway, but which had lots of potential for development if N28 remained a general-purpose road. Nothing else makes any rational sense.)

Your theory is wrong. There’s zero prospect of developing onto a National Road and its nearly as difficult on lesser roads entering/exiting off them.

cjpm

KrisW1001 wrote: »

Mallow is going to need the same kind of expensive river crossing over the Blackwater as the Fermoy bypass did, plus links to N72 and/or N73.

The topography east of Mallow is a narrow river valley with steep sides. You couldn't ask for better for crossing with a bridge. It will be (relatively) cheap as MWay river bridges go.

Its where you have wide flood plains that you have an issue (as is the case west of Mallow and is also an SAC.)

The N72 and N73 merge, and cross the proposed route. In fact where they merge is within a few hundred metres of the proposed M20 again saving money. It remains to be seen if the proposed Mallow Relief Road will be bundled with the M20 contract.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I still think that the whole M/N20 should go through planning but then the online upgrade southern section should be bundled with the Cork NNR. Having the M20 end at Blarney will create a whole new set of problems.

You'll have a Motorway ending at a high quality dual carriageway. We've often seen worse. Undoubtable there will be a traffic increase in Blackpool, but its not worth delaying the M20 over it. The NRR is the next piece of the jigsaw.

marno21 wrote: »

This would be a massive job for one contractor. Far more likely to be a consortium like the M17/M18 of tendered in one contract (that was Roadbridge/Sisk/Lagan iirc)

These big road schemes are always tendered for by consortiums, such is the scale of a road job, a few examples below.....



N7 Nenagh to Castletown was Bowen & Somague (from Portugal)

N6 Galway Ballinasloe was FCC Construction S.A. and Itinere Infraestructuras (both major companies from Spain) and P.J. Hegarty & Sons
N7 Limerick to Nenagh was Mota Engil Engineering and Construction SA, Coffey Construction Ltd, and Michael McNamara and Co
M8 Cashel to Mitchelstown was
Roadbridge Sisk JV

Bass Reeves

cjpm wrote: »

Ok. What you’re referring to is getting through the planning process. Which is quite rightly being done all together. No one is suggesting that that is split. So one oral hearing and one set of CPO’s.

When it’s being put out to TENDER for construction it will most likely be split in 2 to reduce the risk to the tax payer. Probably 3 to 6 months between them to give the companies tendering a chance to price them.

M7 schemes did not go to tender all together.
It’s not in the clients best interest

Eamonn Ryan is only interested in stopping this scheme. Hence those cost estimate figures that he pulled from his Avocado encrusted arsehole

After planning is granted the NRA/Co Council's have 18 months to complete CPO"s ( notice to treat) after that they lapse and process has to restart. When they serve NTT from that moment on they must pay interest on what ever compensation is agreed. They also need to take possession as soon as NTT is served as it reduces risk to them. That means they must fence it off and make any landholdings stick proof.

Splitting the road into multiple projects complicates that. As well splitting it in three increases the risk of projects being not big enough to attract major players and contracts are shared out by company tendering.

KrisW1001

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Your theory is wrong. There’s zero prospect of developing onto a National Road and its nearly as difficult on lesser roads entering/exiting off them.

The old road ceases to be part of a National Route once a motorway is built offline to carry that national route. It is considerably easier to get planning for development near R-roads.

The M28 crowd did not object to the building of a motorway for national route 28: their objection was to the building of that motorway along the same line as the existing road.

Chris_5339762

cjpm wrote: »

You'll have a Motorway ending at a high quality dual carriageway. We've often seen worse. Undoubtable there will be a traffic increase in Blackpool, but its not worth delaying the M20 over it. The NRR is the next piece of the jigsaw.

I certainly wouldn't delay the M20, but I think the CNRR really really should be built at the same time. You can't have motorway from Limerick (and Galway) terminating at Blarney and have everyone toddle through Blackpool to get to the M8 at Dunkettle. We won't mention that the M28 will be built, or close to it, by then. Ringaskiddy Port to Limerick or Galway (post Brexit) lovely motorway out of the port, then a few miles of urban crud before motorway all the way to Limerick/Galway.



It'll be the daftest of motorway gaps in Ireland. CNRR must be co-ordinated with the M20, somehow.

cjpm

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

I certainly wouldn't delay the M20, but I think the CNRR really really should be built at the same time. You can't have motorway from Limerick (and Galway) terminating at Blarney and have everyone toddle through Blackpool to get to the M8 at Dunkettle. We won't mention that the M28 will be built, or close to it, by then. Ringaskiddy Port to Limerick or Galway (post Brexit) lovely motorway out of the port, then a few miles of urban crud before motorway all the way to Limerick/Galway.



It'll be the daftest of motorway gaps in Ireland. CNRR must be co-ordinated with the M20, somehow.

In an ideal world they’d all be built together. Finances will mean otherwise unfortunately. Especially after Covid

Bass Reeves

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

I certainly wouldn't delay the M20, but I think the CNRR really really should be built at the same time. You can't have motorway from Limerick (and Galway) terminating at Blarney and have everyone toddle through Blackpool to get to the M8 at Dunkettle. We won't mention that the M28 will be built, or close to it, by then. Ringaskiddy Port to Limerick or Galway (post Brexit) lovely motorway out of the port, then a few miles of urban crud before motorway all the way to Limerick/Galway.



It'll be the daftest of motorway gaps in Ireland. CNRR must be co-ordinated with the M20, somehow.

I would live with 10-15 minutes of hassle. I know all the rat runs at this stage. The hassle of getting rid of the rest of that journey would counter balance it. I think many think you would have a red cow roundabout issue. its not the same you have limited traffic. The NRR can wait

Isambard

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

I certainly wouldn't delay the M20, but I think the CNRR really really should be built at the same time. You can't have motorway from Limerick (and Galway) terminating at Blarney and have everyone toddle through Blackpool to get to the M8 at Dunkettle. We won't mention that the M28 will be built, or close to it, by then. Ringaskiddy Port to Limerick or Galway (post Brexit) lovely motorway out of the port, then a few miles of urban crud before motorway all the way to Limerick/Galway.



It'll be the daftest of motorway gaps in Ireland. CNRR must be co-ordinated with the M20, somehow.

i can't see there being many wanting to travel on the M20 to access the M8. We in North Cork would use the N72 and N73 for that dangerous as they are.

Reputable Rog

KrisW1001 wrote: »

The old road ceases to be part of a National Route once a motorway is built offline to carry that national route. It is considerably easier to get planning for development near R-roads.

The M28 crowd did not object to the building of a motorway for national route 28: their objection was to the building of that motorway along the same line as the existing road.

The existing road is largely within the Metropolitan Geeen Belt where large scale development is not permitted, the NPF also demands 50% of new residential development within the existing built up area so again large scale development is unlikely.

marno21

Awarded to Getmapping plc.

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/174703/0/1?returnUrl=ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders&b=ETENDERS_SIMPLE

pajoguy

marno21 wrote: »

Awarded to Getmapping plc.

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/174703/0/1?returnUrl=ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders&b=ETENDERS_SIMPLE

Low flying aircraft out my way today. Its hardly them. Only spotted it for a few seconds. We would not be on any of the proposed routes but about 1km from one them. They would hardly be surveying to that extent and also on a Sunday.

cjpm

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40248416.html


https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40248089.html

Bass Reeves

cjpm wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40248416.html


https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40248089.html

Rubbish, I do not mind people objecting because it impacts them but people saying that the M20 is not need and suggesting the M28 to the busiest road not connected to Dublin is a load of codswallop