M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

A congestion charge is being mooted for Cork city, same for Dublin. Was included in the 5 cities demand management report

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118867358#Comment_118867358

This can’t be viable atm politically surely. There’d be riots if it was attempted

Cork also has 4 national roads running through its city centre at the minute. Lack of alternative routes is a major factor for this along with the alternative routes to the JLT running through the city. Doesn’t sound like a good place for congestion charges

Aontachtoir

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118867358#Comment_118867358

They can moot it all they want. In the absence of a completed ring road and much improved public and active transport options, no party with seats to lose in Cork will attempt to bring it in. (Except maybe the Greens).

Limerick74

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118867061#Comment_118867061

CNDR?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118867432#Comment_118867432

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118867548#Comment_118867548

No details on a timeline for introducing it exist at the moment. As I said, it was one of the proposals listed in that report, charging for Cork & Dublin, workplace parking levies for Galway and...... something else for Limerick, can't recall exactly.

Basically trials of different "demand mangement" measures are to be done across the 5 cities. But as I said, there's been nothing from govt since the report so who knows what the timelines are

Edit: posted about it here previously

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058219950/five-cities-demand-management-report-congestion-charges-15-min-city-parking-charge-increases-etc

Chris_5339762

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118867557#Comment_118867557

Yes, thats true but I'd have my doubts that will be built. Also, it'll be similar to the Dublin Outer Ring.... roundabouts and traffic lights and bus lanes and everything else. Still not a good enough connection between the M20 and Dunkettle. Need an M40.

cgcsb

Congestion charging is ineffective though.

The Oslo model is effective, remove all through routes for cars in the city centres, remove almost all street parking, more pedestrian streets, more cycle lanes, much wider footpaths, get rid of the polls and ESB boxes. But it's not cheap so won't happen.

Dublin City Centre still has multi lane general traffic roads, car travel in the city centre should be on an access only basis.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118867061#Comment_118867061

Yep that would create an "outer ring" road also, within which congestion charges will apply. I think that's the logical future path. It might be seen as a motorway toll or a congestion charge but it'll probably amount to the same thing at the end of the day.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118867633#Comment_118867633

Yep this is exactly what I was thinking of. It has been recommended. And it would make no sense to toll M20 AND a congestion charge.

Limerick74

Looks like they are holding a public webinar this Wednesday night at 7pm

https://corklimerick.ie/n-m20-public-webinars/

Hibernicis

Excellent presentation, well worth the time. @Limerick74 thank you very much for highlighting it.

Following a very brief video, the session followed a Q&A format. It lasted approx 85 mins. The two presenters, Jari Howard the Project Manager and Barry O'Carroll a Design Engineer with WSP answered questions head-on, clearly, concisely and appeared to be totally on top of their brief. Jari Howard appears to have lived this project and sounded like he knew every blade of grass along the route. They used a map throughout, zooming in and out as required.

A full "option selection report" is being finalised and will be published on the website in the next month or so. This will be a bible of documents for Phase 2.

On a number of occasions they strongly advised people to get in touch with the team asap if they had any questions, concerns, suggestions or feedback. This was recommended not alone for landowners etc, but also in relation to many other aspects, e.g. junctions, the active travel route/greenway (should it be adjacent to the new road, or follow the line of and reuse the old road, or be a discrete greenway on a new route) They are will ing to conduct physical, online phone meetings. Appointments can me made using the contact form https://corklimerick.ie/contact/ or by emailing info@corklimerick.ie

pajoguy

Any chsnce these webinars were recorded? Would love to view them.

Hibernicis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118923180#Comment_118923180

I'd suggest you ask the team using the links above - they appeared to be more than happy to engage in any way possible.

Limerick74

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118923180#Comment_118923180

They were quite clear in the webinar that nothing was recorded due to GDPR so I doubt they were.

marno21

Any word in relation to junctions actually? I understand it may be too soon for this but it’ll be an interesting element of the project over the next few months.

Hibernicis

My notes from the Webinar – I make no claim that these are comprehensive, or even accurate as I was listening and watching the screen while writing and may have missed bits. I have moved things around to try to keep like items together.

Road & General

The new road will be HQDC. 

New parallel access roads will probably be required along the sections of the N20 which are being incorporated in the new road, to provide access for houses, farms etc. (e.g. near Crooom and Croom to Banoge)+

The existing route corridor is 500m wide. As the design progresses this will reduce. Each design update should see it narrowing – 200m was mentioned in relation to the second design update. Ultimate land take will in general be 100m, but will vary where embankments, junctions are required. Design updates are likely every six months or so during phase 3. 

Junction strategy is evolving, and the number of junctions and their locations is at an early stage. Focus will be on National/regional roads. Junctions will be provided to allow easy access to Croom (one junction), Charleville, Buttevant and Mallow. This is not an exhaustive list, and other possibilities were mentioned e.g. Doneraile (sounded unlikely), Mournabbey etc.   

Regarding the Junction at Mallow, it was envisaged that the M/N20 access to Mallow, and  access from the Mallow Relief Road would be incorporated into a single junction. The is facilitated by the same design consultants working on both projects. 

Housing estates near Blarney – no plan to impact these, intention is to construct new road withing the existing fence to fence line where possible so land take in this area should be minimal.

Tolling or Shadow Tolling (Government pays the contractor yearly) is an option. No decisions at this stage. Technology moving on so Toll Plazas very unlikely, would be more likely to be electronic tolling (à la the M50)

All house/land owners should have received a communication in the last week regarding teams that will be walking the route over the coming months. These are studying everything from wildlife, noise issues and options, light issues and options etc. etc. 

When will landowners be written to regarding land-take (lands to be CPOd)? Design will need to be completed first. Each stage brings more clarity. Land acquisition 3-5 years away. 

What are the two grey areas on the map (near AttyFlynn and North of Buttevant) ? In these two areas the approach is to reuse the existing corridor, however there are significant issues around the number of exits etc. The grey areas are to allow more scope to review these issues in detail and come up with the optimum design solution.  

As well as land required by the mainline and junctions, land-take will include parallel (access) roads and connecting roads. 

A further traffic survey is progressing (@marno21 mentioned this some time ago). This is to better understand current traffic patterns, rat-runs etc. This came up when questions were asked about the relationship between this scheme and Adare. The primary purpose of this survey is to inform the junction strategy.

What are the differences vs the 2010 route ? Similar route, more reuse of current online sections, different design criteria (e.g. higher environmental requirements)

Will the road incorporate roundabouts in the vicinity of the towns being bypassed, similar to the Clonmel bypass (others were also mentioned)? Intention is to grade separated junctions throughout. 

Will the widening/reconstruction of the online sections cause extensive disruption? The team are acutely aware of how disruptive working online can be. They understand how bad it can be (theN7 Naas Dual Carriageway was mentioned) but believe that this can be managed successfully (the upgrading of the Nenagh bypass to motorway standard was mentioned).

Why is Charleville being bypassed on the West rather than the East? Both East and West routes were examined in detail. Overall it was close and further assessment was required. In the end the West route prevailed on cost and engineering grounds.  

Why the diverge from the N20 when approaching Mallow from Mourneabbey? The option of reusing the N20 as it passes through Mallow was considered. Significant issues arose in the vicinity of the Fire station and DairyGold. Also, the existing Blackwater road bridge is already capacity constrained and building a second road viaduct would be complex and constrained by the rail viaduct. 

Why not build a double deck road over the current Blackwater road bridge in Mallow – Because it’s not F-ing Los Angeles !! (This is the essence of his response, in fairness he phrased it a bit more politely)

Was a West of Mallow Route considered to avoid the scale of the Blackwater bridge that will be required East of Mallow? Yes. Dropped at an early stage for reasons of floodplain and other significant constraints. Also, there were doubts on whether this West route would make it through planning on environmental grounds. 

Given climate change responses and mitigations and other policies could the road project turn out to be a white elephant? The current road is dangerous and needs to be improved. An improved will also benefit public transport, freight and logistics etc. And it is important to remember that unlike previous projects, this is a wide ranging and comprehensive solution incorporating Active Travel, Rail, Bus as well as Road. 

What is the end date for the project ? Assuming no delay at the planning stage, no High Court challenges, and funding and government permission to proceed straight to construction, then 2030. But a lot of possible intervening variables outside the control of the project team which could impact on this.

Bus

An Express Cork-Limerick bus service with one stop in Mallow is likely and could cut 30 mins off the journey time. Stopping services will not be eliminated and will continue in parallel. The actual services to be provided are decisions for the bus operators.  

Active Travel

The commitment in relation to Active Travel is a fully segregated Cycle/Foot route from Barney to Patrickswell. They are open to this being (a) a new route adjacent to the new road (b) following sections of the old road (c) a greenway (e.g. reusing the old Charleville-Patrickswell rail route – which would of course require additional land acquisition) or a mix of these. The team are very interested in hearing from anybody with views on this. The Active Travel Route may be progressed as a separate project and delivered separately, especially if it follows the Greenway planning protocols. 

Rail Related Questions

Why is option RS1 seven times cheaper than RS2a and RS2b? Because the only cost included is the provision of new rolling stock. The travel times and costings assume the existing single track from Kilronan Junction to Limerick Junction and the passing loop at Dromkeen remains as is. Double tracking is being actively looked at as part of LMATS and will likely happen at some point and would further improve travel times. 

Will Charleville Buttevant railway station reopen? Outside the MN20 team’s remit but it would make sense.  Suggested that those interested make representations (presumably to NTA/IE)

As I mentioned previously, The team are very keen to engage and would welcome questions, concerns, suggestions or feedback. They are willing to conduct physical, online or phone meetings. Appointments can me made using the contact form https://corklimerick.ie/contact/ or by emailing info@corklimerick.ie

• Thanks for @Limerick74 for the corrections

Hibernicis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118923705#Comment_118923705

There are a few comments included above. Nothing that will shock you. Barry O'Carroll was also asked "how many junctions" and he gave the answer you would expect - enough to make the use of the road attractive but not too many as having them too close together causes weaving.

KrisW1001

One junction every 10~12 km is the norm for motorways here. The new M20 is 78 km long between Blarney and the M20/M21 interchange, so I could see seven junctions, at (from South to North): Grenagh, Mallow (x2), Buttevant, Charleville, O Rourke’s Cross (for R518 serving South Co. Limerick) and Croom.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118925703#Comment_118925703

IMO this is spot on but there should be one more. A junction with the R515 west of Charleville would make a lot of sense, not to serve Charleville but the R515 attracts a lot of long distance traffic from NW Cork, including some sizeable towns such as Newmarket and Kanturk. A considerable amount of heavy traffic also including Munster Joinery. This junction was omitted in the 2010 plan which was bizarre.

Leonard Hofstadter

Good to know they've said it's HQDC. As we know, that's motorway by another name. Hopefully they'll do what they've done elsewhere and re-classify it to motorway. Most important thing is they give it full 120 km/h speed limits so we can make the most of this new road, the people of Cork and Limerick have waited long enough for a decent road.

KrisW1001

A junction with the R515 west of Charleville would make a lot of sense, not to serve Charleville but the R515 attracts a lot of long distance traffic from NW Cork

Considering how far west of Charleville the preferred route runs, the most sensible place for the Charleville junction would be at the intersection of the new road and the R515. I think R515 should be re-routed via a new (or re-purposed) road within Charleville itself so as not to have goods traffic using Main St. to cross the town, but I imagine there’s a whole box of plans for street improvement that are waiting for the day when N20 doesn’t run through the centre of the town...

Reputable Rog

Great summary Hibernicus.

I personally don’t see the need for a Buttevant junction, can be served adequately by Mallow North.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118929963#Comment_118929963

An Bord Pleanala sent the project back to put in a Buttevant junction in 2010 which held up the project for several months and likely resulted in it being mothballed.

I can’t see them making the same mistake this time given the delays they’re trying to avoid

DumbBrunette

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-40852724.html

Quite a pro M20 piece from the examiner for a change. No real argument about whether the road should be built, focus shifting to where the junctions will be, etc

cjpm

De paper biyyy…… back to the negative drivel

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40860554.html

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118991465#Comment_118991465

Somebody should tell the IRHA that they should have kept the gate closed, because that horse has well and truly bolted.

KrisW1001

IRHA suddenly don’t care about the price of fuel, I see.. N24/M8 is 10% further than N25 if you’re travelling Waterford to Cork. Of course, it is true that if you want to reach the West of Ireland from Rosslare, then taking N24 then M18/M17 is a better option than N25,M20,M18/M17...

... and that is why there’s two projects running right now to upgrade N24..

marno21

The ship has sailed so far on the Cork-Limerick via Cahir plan that it’s in international waters. They’re about 3 years too late with that idea.

prunudo

I'm sure the truckers stuck in various towns along the n20 don't agree with that. At the end of the day the irha is nothing more than a mouthpiece for a few of the large hauliers, they don't have the interests for the majority of drivers and companies on their minds.

cjpm

Could you imagine the reaction of the Hauliers around Croom, Charleville, Buttevent and Mallow reading that shite in yesterdays paper.

And a lot of the same hauliers use the N71 and N72 goat tracks too!!