M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

raindodger

another person killed in charleville today how many more before something is done with this route

veryangryman

I'm going to guess alot... the petrol stations need their passing trade so will hold it up sure..feck safety

pajoguy

We cant even manage a roundabout at O'Rourkes cross not to mind a motorway.

Limerick74

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120602964#Comment_120602964

Thank the High Court and the appellant for the delay to that project. It would have been built by now, as the N24 Beary's Cross roundabout went through planning at the same time and is now completed.

pajoguy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120603356#Comment_120603356

Its more the planning system than the building of the project. I know everyone has a right to appeal but the length of time it takes to get a project through planning/judicial review is much too long.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120602964#Comment_120602964

The Irish state has developed one of the world's most extensive motorway networks per head of population, I think it'll be fine.

Limerick74

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-41144965.html

marno21

https://www.todayfm.com/podcasts/the-last-word-with-matt-cooper/eamon-ryan-what-will-irelands-electric-vehicle-infrastructure-look-like-in-the-next-few-years

Brief discussion about the M20 at 6 minutes in.

He has some sort of complex about this road. The arrogance of “I know better than the millions spent on design and planning”.

serfboard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635045#Comment_120635045

The first time around that the Greens were in office they were kept away from Transport for precisely this reason - Fianna Fail knew that they'd slow down/feck up the road projects.

As well as doubling the number of seats they had from that government to this one (6->12), this time around FF/FG were more desperate and the Greens were able to drive a harder bargain and get the coveted Transport portfolio and to do (almost) exactly what you'd expect a Green Minister to do with a roads programme.

spacetweek

What galls me is that with a Green MfT I thought we'd at least have expedited DART+/Metrolink/Luas etc. But they've continued to drag on and on for years.

SeanW

I knew that E.R. would be totally useless even at delivering public transport when the Greens killed the Southern half of Metrolink. None of this surprised me, at any point.

AugustusMinimus

The greens use public transport to kill roads. When public transport is on the table to inevitably try to kill that too. They appear to be anti development if anything.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120649580#Comment_120649580

Because ministers cant expedite projects, only stall them.

Which may well explain why hes trying to take down a few road projects during his tenure, something to put in the green party highlight reel (Look at how many tonnes of co2 we prevented by hijacking the department of transport )

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120662620#Comment_120662620

You should read the independent consultants' report on Metrolink before jumping on "the Greens". South of Stephen's Green there was no additional benefit to replacing one rail system on a dedicated corridor (Luas) with another (Metro) on the exact same alignment. Even running Metro to Charlemont wasn't supportable on passenger demand, but it at least allowed for a much more useful line extension, heading south-west, to be done in future. The original Metrolink routing would have also completely killed passenger numbers on the section of Luas from Stephen's Green to Charlemont, which cost a lot of money to build. Spending a fortune to waste a previous investment is not how you do public transport.

Basically, canning the conversion of Luas to Metro south of Charlemont has saved hundreds of millions of euro from the transport budget, and will not have any negative impact on public transport provision along that corridor - additional Luas capacity is planned to meet future demand.

cgcsb

I think it's only really the minister of finance or the Taoiseach that can bring projects forward. But even that is limited by our collapsed planning system. There are 12 major public transport projects with ABP right now, some for as long as 18 months and no hearing date is set. The system needs complete overhaul and proper resourcing.

As for the M20, I think people generally acknowledge its an essential road and I don't think anyone would really argue that point. That being said I'd be happy if they just replaced the more dangerous sections with a new single carriageway and used the savings to upgrade to increase the speed of train services and really this is the only way we're going to hit emissions targets but as we've seen lately the government doesn't really want to hit emissions targets, they are happy for the DAA to build new car parking and cancel parts of bus connects. We may get used to paying the fines

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120682310#Comment_120682310

The bad sections of road just make it slightly slower. It's the entrances, side roads, crossings and the levels of slow-moving traffic on the N20 that are the major factors in making it dangerous. That's why the whole thing needs to be done. The "more dangerous sections" are all up and down the alignment, realistically.

Train integration to public transport at both sides is also very poor. Public transport in both cities needs to be radically improved before the train could be a viable alternative for most people. I don't agree with your opinion here I must say.

Example: which buses stop in Cork Kent train station? I can tell you that if you go to the bus stop at Kent station right now, there is no information whatsoever as to which buses stop there, or where they might go. Furthermore, if you're unlucky enough to travel on a Sunday, there's nobody in Parnell Place to tell you which buses go through there, either. There's also a bus stop across the road with some bus numbers written on it. Some buses on Lower Glanmire Road go through Kent, some don't. And the private coach companies go from a further, third location, with little information available. It's poorly integrated at the moment. And that's without talking about BusConnects being watered down to nothing.

So I don't think it's fair to play "qu'ils mangent de la brioche" with regards transport in the cities outside the Dublin region to be honest. There's two very different "types" of public transport in this country.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120683000#Comment_120683000

Even if the whole route was replaced by a new limited access single carriageway road that would be preferable from an emissions targets and budgetary point of view. Single carriageway is a lot cheaper. Strategically speaking there is a perfectly valid arguement for motorway because of Hauliage. If that can be balanced with reducing car journeys nationally somehow then fine. Most of the reduction in car journeys will likely come from commuter journeys sub 10km in urban areas.

There are significant plans to improve public transport in both Cork and Limerick which are proceeding regardless of the M20 and the rail link is being improved (in sections as 2 or 3 separate projects) regardless of the M20. Public transport journeys between the cities must be made a viable alternative to road regardless of the M20, indeed all intercity journeys by PT have to be competitive with road by 2030. If not we will either pay fines every year until the gap is closed or in 2029 face very harsh anti driving measures in an attempt to reduce numbers quickly. Expect to see workplace parking charges or restrictions, new tolls, congestion charging, additional taxation on fuels and trippling of parking charges and fines will if we don't make tougher decisions right now.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120683059#Comment_120683059

I'm actually in favour of most of what you're saying in the last two lines anyway TBH. I'd like to see tolls entering the city at the M20 from the North and a P&R at Blarney all incorporated into the N/M20 design personally. I don't know if we've ever had a new-build limited-access single carriageway in this country, and I'm not against it in principle, but I'm saying that I have been stuck behind vehicles doing 30kmh on that road and that's just not viable as an inter-urban route.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120683175#Comment_120683175

I think parts of the N5 and Mayo have this set up. The N10 in Kilkenny

Chris_5339762

Croom bypass (mostly). Which will become Motorway eventually I hope. There really is no other sane option than a motorway here. Its a long distance interurban road connecting the Republic of Irelands second and third city. Anything less than a motorway (with public transport improvements) is underselling it.

2+2 would be more or less acceptable, but still do it properly. Single carriageway won't cut it for the amount of haulage.

pigtown

I'm fairly sure the new road between Rathkeale and Foynes will be single carriageway with no other junctions apart from Askeaton

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120684244#Comment_120684244

It's to be 2+2 between Foynes and Askeaton.

The project consists of:

Approx.15.6 km dual carriageway from Foynes to Rathkeale (with approx.1.9km single carriageway link road between Ballyclogh and Askeaton),

https://www.foyneslimerick.ie/

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120683367#Comment_120683367

Yep I'm not against it in principle, but I think you'll get lots of traffic overtaking because of the levels of slow agri and HGV traffic on there.

Someone above mentioned the Croom Bypass, and I think that's a good example because almost any time of day if you drive on Croom Bypass it's de-facto dual carriageway there's so much overtaking going on. So I'd prefer to just see it dualled unfortunately.

And yes please, more effort into those anti-driving measures simultaneously. Right now, preferably. N/M20 is a good example of what causes a big problem in Cork, the more rural county and more urban city are not on the same hymn sheet. The city has ability to reduce unsustainable commuting, but this gets undermined by the county's efforts at encouraging development and growth of market towns. I have no doubt that if the N/M20 is tolled and congestion charges are brought in, the county would immediately approve development with free parking just inside the toll and congestion zone (and probably anywhere with N/M20 access). If the N/M20 was never done, we'd still need way better carrot and stick.

So yes to dual carriageway, and also yes to much stricter measures and public transport improvements, basically is my opinion.

pigtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120685029#Comment_120685029

It was originally floated as such.

EnzoScifo

Wide single roads aren't built on major national routes anymore as far as I remember. Minimum spec would be 2+2 dual carriageway e.g. Macroom bypass.

pigtown

I looks like the parallel greeway will be built along the old rail line in the northern half of the project with a new alignment on the southern half.

marno21

The preferred transport solution has been decided and the design team are currently engaged in the Phase 3 Design and environmental evaluation with a view to having a business case submitted at the latter part of 2023. Alternative Funding study ongoing, including discussions with Cork and Limerick local authorities. Timelines indicated subject to Government approvals and Statutory approvals. 

Christ, that hardly reads as ready to submit for planning in the latter part of 2023? Usually business case would mean that the scheme is fully designed & planned.

Alternative funding isn't surprising given the hole this will blow in the roads construction budget.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120787867#Comment_120787867

What's the source of the quote?

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120788356#Comment_120788356

https://www.tii.ie/news/press-releases/opening-statement-28-06/JCTC_28June2023_Opening_Statement-and-Appendices.pdf

I started a whole new thread to discuss the non M20 elements of that pdf should you wish to do so.

Kermit.de.frog

It really is flabbergasting just how long it takes to get any major infrastructure done in this country.

The whole system needs serious reform. We are crippled. We don't have a single significant infrastructure project in construction atm in the entire state despite having the money.

As for the "N/M" nonsense. It's very simple. Just build a motorway between Cork and Limerick. There is literally nothing complicated here.