M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

JupiterKid

Even if construction of the M20 were to start tomorrow, there would still be a strong case for building S2 bypasses for Charleville and especially Buttevant and realigning the N20 around Buttevant.

Why this wasn't done years ago - after Mallow was bypassed - baffles me.

blindsider

I heard Varadkar on the radio this morning. He was talking about funding for LUAS cross city line - €368m it'll cost.

Then I look at the NRA web-site:

http://www.nra.ie/mapping/index.xml


Apart from Macroom, there's not a single live project in Cork. (And that's a disaster in it's own right!) The M20 is nowhere on Varadkar's radar - he doesn't care if it fell off the planet.

It seems to me that our politicians are doing NOTHING to advance the cause for the M20, and until that changes, we will be allowed to suffer in ignominy.

Still, at least we'll be able to get around Dublin more easily.... huzzah!

spacetweek

The M20 is a very expensive project and the Luas Cross City should have been built 10 years ago.
In any case there are other projects in Cork which are more important than the M20 e.g. Dunkettle.
Expect to see no movement on the M20 for many years.

grumpymunster

The M20 being a major link between Cork, Limerick & Galway is way overdue. The section between Buttevant & Mallow is downright dangerous there is no other way to describe that section of road. There is more to Ireland than Dublin & Cork and the fact that the second, third and fourth cities are linked by a Victorian road is shameful.

Normally when you have a cabinet minister in situ you get things, you have to wonder what the great Willie O'Dea was doing really?

AugustusMinimus

grumpymunster wrote: »

The M20 being a major link between Cork, Limerick & Galway is way overdue. The section between Buttevant & Mallow is downright dangerous there is no other way to describe that section of road. There is more to Ireland than Dublin & Cork and the fact that the second, third and fourth cities are linked by a Victorian road is shameful.

Normally when you have a cabinet minister in situ you get things, you have to wonder what the great Willie O'Dea was doing really?

75% of the M18 linking Limerick and Galway has already been built. I'd imagine this road probably gets less traffic than the M20. Certainly less than the Cork - Mallow section anyways.

The remaining section between Gort and Tuam is to commence construction next year I think.

blindsider

spacetweek wrote: »

The M20 is a very expensive project and the Luas Cross City should have been built 10 years ago.
In any case there are other projects in Cork which are more important than the M20 e.g. Dunkettle.
Expect to see no movement on the M20 for many years.

I respectfully disagree.

I accept that Dunkettle is far from perfect, but I don't believe it's more important than the M20 and M40. In fact, I don't see how Dunkettle can commence without the M40.

If the M40 was complete, it would remove some M8 southbound traffic, and allow other Northbound traffic to join the M8 above Dunkettle. It would also make sense to have an M8 spur to the M40 east of Dunkettle, further reducing issues with Dunkettle itself.

Re the M20, the lack of infrastructure is hindering trade between Cork and Limerick - currently, if I have a meeting in Limerick city, I allow 2 hours door to door, and back (1.5hrs just doesn't guarantee that I'll be punctual). With my 1.5hrs meeting, that's most of my working day taken up.

This means I avoid driving to Limerick if at all possible - it's a hateful journey and it hinders trade and opportunity between our 2nd and 3rd cities.

OF COURSE there's not enough traffic to justify the numbers right now- but build the bloody thing and when I can drive the 105km in 1 hr 10 mins, then I'll do it - regularly. So will many others.

AugustusMinimus

blindsider wrote: »

I respectfully disagree.

I accept that Dunkettle is far from perfect, but I don't believe it's more important than the M20 and M40. In fact, I don't see how Dunkettle can commence without the M40.

If the M40 was complete, it would remove some M8 southbound traffic, and allow other Northbound traffic to join the M8 above Dunkettle. It would also make sense to have an M8 spur to the M40 east of Dunkettle, further reducing issues with Dunkettle itself.

IMO, for the City itself, Dunkettle is without doubt the most needed roads project. Bloomfield to Ringaskiddy will be done within a few more years which will put more pressure on Dunkettle. The upgrade to Bandon and Sarsfields roundabouts have also put more pressure on it.

I doubt the M40 section from Glanmire to Blarney would do much to help at Dunkettle.

blindsider wrote: »

Re the M20, the lack of infrastructure is hindering trade between Cork and Limerick - currently, if I have a meeting in Limerick city, I allow 2 hours door to door, and back (1.5hrs just doesn't guarantee that I'll be punctual). With my 1.5hrs meeting, that's most of my working day taken up.

This means I avoid driving to Limerick if at all possible - it's a hateful journey and it hinders trade and opportunity between our 2nd and 3rd cities.

OF COURSE there's not enough traffic to justify the numbers right now- but build the bloody thing and when I can drive the 105km in 1 hr 10 mins, then I'll do it - regularly. So will many others.

IKEA were considering opening a shop in Mallow, thinking it would cater perfectly for Cork and Limerick customers. The state of the road network between the 2 seemingly put them off.

Calina

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

IKEA were considering opening a shop in Mallow, thinking it would cater perfectly for Cork and Limerick customers. The state of the road network between the 2 seemingly put them off.

I would appreciate a source for the contention that IKEA were considering opening in Mallow. I think people in Cork would travel as far as Limerick.

L1011

Calina wrote: »

I would appreciate a source for the contention that IKEA were considering opening in Mallow. I think people in Cork would travel as far as Limerick.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/business/ikea-hold-preliminary-talks-with-mallow-council-467441.html and about 800 other Google results in a tenth of a second. Very widely reported at the time.

Chris_5339762

spacetweek wrote: »

The M20 is a very expensive project and the Luas Cross City should have been built 10 years ago.
In any case there are other projects in Cork which are more important than the M20 e.g. Dunkettle.
Expect to see no movement on the M20 for many years.

Also Luas Cross City was the 'compromise'... it was either this or Metro North/Interconnector so it was all we could really expect that this got the go-ahead.

That said, the M20 is still an utterly awful road and something needs to be done about it.

road_high

I actually agree with Cork people here (presumably they are), apart from the M8 and N40 upgrades the improvements to major routes in Cork have been very inadequate. The N21 and N20 are glaringly obvious needs for major work/bypasses. Parts of the N25 too.

JupiterKid

Well, something really needs to be done about the current N20 as for much of its length it is simply unfit for purpose and is a death trap.

There is a very strong case for the M20 to built in stages, with the stage from Charleville to Mallow being the most obvious section to proceed first.

Poxyshamrock

Charleville to Mallow would be a great start. The stretch of bends by Buttevant and the Quarry are dodgy as hell at times.

Vanquished

To bypass Charleville and Buttevant you would need to continue as far as the existing Croom bypass as that's the next tie-in point with the existing N20.

The proposed M20 route is a good bit offline from Mourneabbey (south of Mallow) to Croom. With the exception of a stretch at Velvetstown (north of Buttevant) but of course that's no good if you want to incorporate a bypass of Buttevant and the dreadful Ballybeg bends stretch!

Realistically the only feasible option would be to build the stretch from Mourneabbey to the Croom bypass. Taking Mallow, Buttevant and Charleville out of the equation.

TINA1984

blindsider wrote: »

It seems to me that our politicians are doing NOTHING to advance the cause for the M20, and until that changes, we will be allowed to suffer in ignominy.

Still, at least we'll be able to get around Dublin more easily.... huzzah!

I think the only TD who made regular noises about the M20 AKA 'The Forgotten Interurban' over the past decade was Bernard Allen.

No point in blaming Dublin, you look at the spend on road and rail in the Limerick - Galway corridor and ask - could/should some of that WRC/M18 money been spent on the M20 instead.

blindsider

TINA1984 wrote: »

I think the only TD who made regular noises about the M20 AKA 'The Forgotten Interurban' over the past decade was Bernard Allen.

No point in blaming Dublin, you look at the spend on road and rail in the Limerick - Galway corridor and ask - could/should some of that WRC/M18 money been spent on the M20 instead.

Don't disagree with you. Dublin politicians lobbied and jostled for funds - the shower down here did SFA - we got what we lobbied for!

pigtown

Well I don't know about Cork but Limerick city has a very good road network, with the exception of the Corbally side. If I had to chose between spending money on a motorway between Limerick and Cork or upgrading the roads around the city then I'd go for the latter.

road_high

pigtown wrote: »

Well I don't know about Cork but Limerick city has a very good road network, with the exception of the Corbally side. If I had to chose between spending money on a motorway between Limerick and Cork or upgrading the roads around the city then I'd go for the latter.

City and the small bit of the M7 are excellent but the rest of the N roads in Co. Limerick are very inadequate; the N20, 21 and 24 are for the most part outdated and not fit for purpose. Just look at Adare, Newcastlewest, and the rest.

AugustusMinimus

Just wondering. Is there a reason why the M17/M18 project was prioritised over the M20 ?

Yes, Ennis needed to be bypassed but I'd imagine the traffic on the M20 was higher than on the M18 ?

cjpm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Just wondering. Is there a reason why the M17/M18 project was prioritised over the M20 ?

Yes, Ennis needed to be bypassed but I'd imagine the traffic on the M20 was higher than on the M18 ?

Politicians up west were always campaigning for the M17/M18.

M17/M18 had been fully CPO'd before the Celtic Tiger abandoned us!

M20 was only at ABP stage when the economy collapsed . Minister decided to withdraw it before a decision was made as if it received permission the land would have to be CPO'd within 18 months.

Now there is nothing being done and it has been forgotten about.

antoobrien

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Yes, Ennis needed to be bypassed but I'd imagine the traffic on the M20 was higher than on the M18 ?

Much the same really, Raheen (in Limerick) and Blackpool (in Cork) had roughly the same traffic levels as Claregalway in the 2000s when the priorities were being laid out.

cjpm wrote: »

Politicians up west were always campaigning for the M17/M18.

If Galway politicians were that effective the M18/M17/N17 to claremorris would be built (and ye'd be complaining about inda spending money at home), the bypass, glaus and a full international airport. Sorry for all those of the mind that there's a conspiracy for galway but it has pathetically substandard infrastructure compared to both cork and & wexford (another shower that love griping about money finally being spent in galway).

What did we get for all the time we had ministers in Galway: the black box (from the previous FG/Lab government), 'nuff said really.

TINA1984

antoobrien wrote: »

Much the same really, Raheen (in Limerick) and Blackpool (in Cork) had roughly the same traffic levels as Claregalway in the 2000s when the priorities were being laid out.

Claregalway & Ennis could have been bypassed, but the worst sections of the N20 could and should've been rebuilt in the same time period.

antoobrien wrote: »

If Galway politicians were that effective the M18/M17/N17 to claremorris would be built (and ye'd be complaining about inda spending money at home), the bypass, glaus and a full international airport. Sorry for all those of the mind that there's a conspiracy for galway but it has pathetically substandard infrastructure compared to both cork and & wexford (another shower that love griping about money finally being spent in galway).

What did we get for all the time we had ministers in Galway: the black box (from the previous FG/Lab government), 'nuff said really.

Such is the lot of the Irish politician, whatever they deliver it's never enough. Galway got the M6 and ground will soon be broken on the M17/18 project to complete the M18. Yet seemingly it isn't enough

AugustusMinimus

After the M18 is built, Galway will have motorway access to Tuam, Athlone, Dublin and Limerick. There will be a high grade of infrastructure to the east of the city where access is needed. The only major project Galway now needs is prob the City bypass.

On the other hand, Cork has motorway access to Dublin and Fermoy. It has dual carriageway to Midleton although part of this route is in a terrible state. No motorway access to Mallow (2nd largest commuter town) or to Limerick. Cork to Killarney road is also in a terrible state. Just try the section of road to the east of Macroom.

In my mind Cork needs:

1. Dunkettle Interchange rebuild
2. M20 to Limerick
3. Completion of the N40 with the Northern Ring Road section.
4. Completion of the N28 to Ringaskiddy scheme
5. Grade separate of N25 (Carrigtowhill to Midleton)
6. Cork - Macroom with Ballyvourney bypass.

road_high

The N25 needs investment further east like bypass of Castlemartyr and widening/climbing lanes on the rest to Youghal would definitely be welcome.

Aard

Being somewhat familiar with the N25 from Waterford to Cork, I can safely say that Castlemartyr (and Youghal > Midleton in general) is the scariest part of the road. That crossroads is so dangerous especially at night and in bad weather.

AugustusMinimus

Aard wrote: »

Being somewhat familiar with the N25 from Waterford to Cork, I can safely say that Castlemartyr (and Youghal > Midleton in general) is the scariest part of the road. That crossroads is so dangerous especially at night and in bad weather.

Not a hope of that section of road being built in the next 10 years I'd say. Originally supposed to be HQDC.

The grade separation, straightening and addition of side roads to the Carrigtowhill to Midleton stretch was a cheap job in itself and it has been canned.

antoobrien

TINA1984 wrote: »

Yet seemingly it isn't enough

And it won't be until we get what we need, a glorified haybarn for small plays and concerts certainly isn't what Galway needed in the 90's.

antoobrien

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

After the M18 is built, Galway will have motorway access to Tuam, Dublin (via Athlone) and Limerick. There will be a high grade of infrastructure to the east of the city where access is needed.

Minor change for accuracy.

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

The only major project Galway now needs is prob the City bypass.

Yup (glaus is a bigger white elephant than metro north).

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

On the other hand, Cork has motorway access to Dublin via Fermoy.

Minor change for accuracy.

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

It has dual carriageway to Midleton although part of this route is in a terrible state. No motorway access to Mallow (2nd largest commuter town) or to Limerick. Cork to Killarney road is also in a terrible state. Just try the section of road to the east of Macroom.

N18 north of Gort & N17 are single carraigeway and in many places very narrow.

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

In my mind Cork needs:

1. Dunkettle Interchange rebuild
2. M20 to Limerick
3. Completion of the N40 with the Northern Ring Road section.
4. Completion of the N28 to Ringaskiddy scheme
5. Grade separate of N25 (Carrigtowhill to Midleton)
6. Cork - Macroom with Ballyvourney bypass.

All of these are further along than the GCOB, which kinda undermines all the unjustified whining about the concentration on the west (based on one road being built and another being further ahead than the M20).

AugustusMinimus

Why in God did you go changing my quotes for "accuracy".

Cork does have motorway access to Fermoy.


That Cork - Limerick road is an absolute disgrace. Throw in the fact that Mallow is a huge commuter town (2nd biggest in Cork) and its obvious that the M20 should be next on the list. However, Varadkar and the Dublin/Mayo centric FG Party are more interested in yet more Dublin vanity projects such as DART underground.

antoobrien

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Why in God did you go changing my quotes for "accuracy".

Cork does have motorway access to Fermoy.

No more than Galway access to has Athlone, that's not the reason for the existence of the road.

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

However, Varadkar and the Dublin/Mayo centric FG Party are more interested in yet more Dublin vanity projects such as DART underground.

When will you guys get it into your heads that the current infra plans were drawn up long before Enda was a realistic option for Taoiseach?

Want to blame someone, blame FF who were in power when the plans for all the projects you mentioned were drawn up.