M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

marno21

marmurr1916 wrote: »

I'm sick of this crap about a motorway to Tuam. The M17 is a small part of a road route that connects Cork, Limerick, Galway, Sligo and Derry, along with Shannon Airport, Knock Airport, Ennis and Letterkenny.

It's not a bloody motorway to Tuam anymore than the M20 would be a motorway to Mallow.

Likewise the New Ross bypass is part of a route that connects Rosslare, still a major port whether you like it or not, to Cork, Waterford and Limerick.

In case you hadn't noticed, Cork, Limerick, Galway, Waterford, Sligo and Derry are all important urban centres on the island of Ireland.

Any improvements to roads connecting those centres to each other and to major ports and airports are to be welcomed no matter which government is in office when they're built.

Trust me I'm in favour of a motorway linking Galway and Tuam here, same as Cork deserves a motorway to Macroom & Mallow, but the routing of it leaves a lot to be desired. The M17 at present is a) a significant detour from the current N17 and b) the time savings obtained by using a motorway standard road will be mitigated by the fact that once on the M17 southbound, and then the M6, your journey will end at an at grade roundabout at Doughiska. But this has all been said before

Obviously Limerick - Sligo travellers are delighted, same with Tuam - Dublin etc

guylikeme

marno21 wrote: »

The M17 at present is a) a significant detour from the current N17 and b) the time savings obtained by using a motorway standard road will be mitigated by the fact that once on the M17 southbound, and then the M6, your journey will end at an at grade roundabout at Doughiska. But this has all been said before

There is a bit of joined up thinking ongoing. The Galway bypass once completed will make this a worthwhile detour. You cant make the whole jigsaw in one go.

yew_tree

In my opinion anything ever built in Connacht has been met with scorn from other parts of the country anyway. Even G Hook on radio keeps on about a motorway to Tuam. Totally wrong as others have pointed out.
Eventually there will be a motorway from Cork to Derry (The Atlantic corridor). The Gort - Tuam section is on part of the overall picture.
Anyone that suffers through traffic in Clarinbridge, Oranmore, ClareGalway and Tuam can't wait for this new road to open. The view that people living in North Galway/South Mayo won't use it because it is too far over towards Athenry is incorrect. Many people work in the east of the city /Oranmore areas. It will only take 5-8 mins to travel from the new juntion to Oranmore. You will also have traffic from Tuam and most of south Mayo now using the route to travel to Dublin.

That said I agree an M20 is needed badly. Horrible road to travel on.

cgcsb

marmurr1916 wrote: »

I'm sick of this crap about a motorway to Tuam. The M17 is a small part of a road route that connects Cork, Limerick, Galway, Sligo and Derry, along with Shannon Airport, Knock Airport, Ennis and Letterkenny.

It's not a bloody motorway to Tuam anymore than the M20 would be a motorway to Mallow.

Likewise the New Ross bypass is part of a route that connects Rosslare, still a major port whether you like it or not, to Cork, Waterford and Limerick.

In case you hadn't noticed, Cork, Limerick, Galway, Waterford, Sligo and Derry are all important urban centres on the island of Ireland.

Any improvements to roads connecting those centres to each other and to major ports and airports are to be welcomed no matter which government is in office when they're built.

While those projects may have merits, the point I was making was about spending priorities. The M17 will not reach even half of it's design capacity by 2030, or probably never, yet it's costing hundreds of millions. Meanwhile the same government have categorically refused to invest in Dublin's Public transport infrastructure for the next 6 years. Projects that were needed 20 years ago are 20 years away. The Greater Dublin area will be home to almost half the state's population by 2030 and it'll have completely ground to a halt by then.

Cookiemunster

cgcsb wrote: »

While those projects may have merits, the point I was making was about spending priorities. The M17 will not reach even half of it's design capacity by 2030, or probably never, yet it's costing hundreds of millions. Meanwhile the same government have categorically refused to invest in Dublin's Public transport infrastructure for the next 6 years. Projects that were needed 20 years ago are 20 years away. The Greater Dublin area will be home to almost half the state's population by 2030 and it'll have completely ground to a halt by then.

That's a bigger issue than any supposed lack of investment in Dublin. Build the M20 and other projects in the West/South and give people the option of living and working in the Cork/Limerick/Galway corridor, instead of forcing them to Dublin and exasperating the issues that already exist there.

marmurr1916

marno21 wrote: »

Trust me I'm in favour of a motorway linking Galway and Tuam here, same as Cork deserves a motorway to Macroom & Mallow, but the routing of it leaves a lot to be desired. The M17 at present is a) a significant detour from the current N17 and b) the time savings obtained by using a motorway standard road will be mitigated by the fact that once on the M17 southbound, and then the M6, your journey will end at an at grade roundabout at Doughiska. But this has all been said before

Obviously Limerick - Sligo travellers are delighted, same with Tuam - Dublin etc

It's not a motorway linking Galway to Tuam. It's part of a route linking Cork to Derry, along with Limerick, Shannon Airport, Ennis, Galway, Knock Airport, Sligo and Letterkenny. And the routing of the M17 is designed to facilitate long-distance traffic, not commuter traffic between Tuam and Galway. Thus proving that it's not a 'motorway to Tuam'...

zulutango

cgcsb wrote: »

The Greater Dublin area will be home to almost half the state's population by 2030 and it'll have completely ground to a halt by then.

Isn't this the crux of the problem? Why should Ireland be so demographically lopsided? People seem to accept that Dublin will be a sprawling metropolis while the next biggest urban centre will be a regional backwater by comparison. This may be the reality now, but it's completely an effect of policy whether intended or not. That is, it needn't be the case that Dublin has half the country's population by 2030. It isn't even particularly good for Dublin that this happens.

cgcsb

zulutango wrote: »

Isn't this the crux of the problem? Why should Ireland be so demographically lopsided? People seem to accept that Dublin will be a sprawling metropolis while the next biggest urban centre will be a regional backwater by comparison. This may be the reality now, but it's completely an effect of policy whether intended or not. That is, it needn't be the case that Dublin has half the country's population by 2030. It isn't even particularly good for Dublin that this happens.

It's a consequence of poor planning. The national spatial strategy made out that almost every town was a hub in it's own right, so none of the regional cities got any special status. Decentralisation was another flawd policy that sought to open a government office in just about every town instead of putting them in Cork and Galway only. We also can't grasp high density living that'll be needed if there is to be a significant second city in Ireland in the future.

cgcsb

Cookiemunster wrote: »

That's a bigger issue than any supposed lack of investment in Dublin. Build the M20 and other projects in the West/South and give people the option of living and working in the Cork/Limerick/Galway corridor, instead of forcing them to Dublin and exasperating the issues that already exist there.

People aren't going to move to Limerick because it's faster to drive there from Cork. Limerick and Cork are already connected by a high frequency rail service taking 1 hour and 30 minutes. People follow office based employment which only exists, in significant amounts, in dense centres of population. Rural Irish people want to live in detatched houses so the regional cities will probably never grow to a similar size to the Capital.

zulutango

cgcsb wrote: »

People aren't going to move to Limerick because it's faster to drive there from Cork. Limerick and Cork are already connected by a high frequency rail service taking 1 hour and 30 minutes. People follow office based employment which only exists, in significant amounts, in dense centres of population. Rural Irish people want to live in detatched houses so the regional cities will probably never grow to a similar size to the Capital.

It's all about incentivising particular settlement patterns. We do such a **** job of making our towns and cities attractive places to live that pretty much everybody who comes from a rural background can't bring themselves to adopt an urban life. They all seem to hark back to the rural homestead, and often for good reason. Policy can change all that though.

AugustusMinimus

cgcsb wrote: »

It's a consequence of poor planning. The national spatial strategy made out that almost every town was a hub in it's own right, so none of the regional cities got any special status. Decentralisation was another flawd policy that sought to open a government office in just about every town instead of putting them in Cork and Galway only. We also can't grasp high density living that'll be needed if there is to be a significant second city in Ireland in the future.

In fairness, at least Cork is attempting to develop the city with much higher density development than other regional cities.

Galway is a sprawling mess in comparison.

Cookiemunster

cgcsb wrote: »

People aren't going to move to Limerick because it's faster to drive there from Cork. Limerick and Cork are already connected by a high frequency rail service taking 1 hour and 30 minutes. People follow office based employment which only exists, in significant amounts, in dense centres of population. Rural Irish people want to live in detatched houses so the regional cities will probably never grow to a similar size to the Capital.

Where did I say that people are going to move to Limerick? Quite simply if the M20 AND OTHER DEVELOPMENTS are processed and more employment created in the West/South then people won't need to leave Limerick, Cork Clare, Galway etc to find work in Dublin. It's called regional development. If this isn't done, then the situation in Dublin deteriorates further and everyone is worse off.

And if you think 1 hour and 30 minutes is a reasonable time to get from Cork to Limerick by train then you're delusional.

cgcsb

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

In fairness, at least Cork is attempting to develop the city with much higher density development than other regional cities.

Galway is a sprawling mess in comparison.

True Galway is a mess, but I don't think Cork is much better. Go to google maps and zoom in on Carrigaline if you want to see a really bad street plan.

spacetweek

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

In fairness, at least Cork is attempting to develop the city with much higher density development than other regional cities.

Galway is a sprawling mess in comparison.

So is Limerick, and Sligo has completely failed to achieve any kind of scale.

cgcsb

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Where did I say that people are going to move to Limerick? Quite simply if the M20 AND OTHER DEVELOPMENTS are processed and more employment created in the West/South then people won't need to leave Limerick, Cork Clare, Galway etc to find work in Dublin. It's called regional development. If this isn't done, then the situation in Dublin deteriorates further and everyone is worse off.

Dublin exceeded the functional capacity of it's transport system over a decade ago. Ignoring that and focusing on a rural motorway scheme is burrying your head in the sand. I do view the M20 as a worthwhile project, but northern sections of the atlantic road corridor, like the western rail corridor are dead money. By all means improve roads but motorway, the most expensive type of road, can hardly be justified where there are currently less than 5,000 cars per day.

Cookiemunster wrote: »

And if you think 1 hour and 30 minutes is a reasonable time to get from Cork to Limerick by train then you're delusional.

It takes 1 hour and 45 mins, according to google, to drive the distance so surely 1 hour and 30 mins by train is acceptable, no? A few tweeks and Irish Rail could probably offer a direct service a few times a day in 1 hour 20 mins.

cgcsb

spacetweek wrote: »

So is Limerick, and Sligo has completely failed to achieve any kind of scale.

Limerick is probably the best planned Irish City, perhaps owing to a simple lack of development full stop rather than development being better handed by authorities.

AugustusMinimus

cgcsb wrote: »

True Galway is a mess, but I don't think Cork is much better. Go to google maps and zoom in on Carrigaline if you want to see a really bad street plan.

Carrigaline isn't in the city though.

AugustusMinimus

cgcsb wrote: »

Limerick is probably the best planned Irish City, perhaps owing to a simple lack of development full stop rather than development being better handed by authorities.

It helps that Limerick is relatively flat.

cgcsb

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Carrigaline isn't in the city though.

but it's present form owes it's self to poor/non existent urban planning which is why our cities are small.

zulutango

cgcsb wrote: »

Dublin exceeded the functional capacity of it's transport system over a decade ago. Ignoring that and focusing on a rural motorway scheme is burrying your head in the sand. I do view the M20 as a worthwhile project, but northern sections of the atlantic road corridor, like the western rail corridor are dead money. By all means improve roads but motorway, the most expensive type of road, can hardly be justified where there are currently less than 5,000 cars per day.


It takes 1 hour and 45 mins, according to google, to drive the distance so surely 1 hour and 30 mins by train is acceptable, no? A few tweeks and Irish Rail could probably offer a direct service a few times a day in 1 hour 20 mins.

A couple of points:

The current volumes on the road is neither here nor there. Motorways are key national infrastructural projects and should be planned on that basis. That is, if you build the motorway it could lead to massive economic and demographic change in Cork and Limerick (and indeed Dublin).

The current journey between Limerick and Cork may be 90 minutes by train but it's still more advantageous to drive because of the flexibility that driving provides. Trains aren't running between Cork and Limerick every 10 minutes. Nor is that a likely future scenario. Or maybe it is?

The drive on the N20 is a hard, stressful, dangerous 90 minutes between the two cities, and that's in light traffic with no hold ups. A motorway connection between the two cities would make it a relatively easy, safe and stress free journey of less than an hour. That would radically alter the relationship between Cork and Limerick. At the moment the road is almost a barrier between the cities, whereas a motorway link would be a game changer for both.

Cookiemunster

cgcsb wrote: »

Dublin exceeded the functional capacity of it's transport system over a decade ago. Ignoring that and focusing on a rural motorway scheme is burrying your head in the sand. I do view the M20 as a worthwhile project, but northern sections of the atlantic road corridor, like the western rail corridor are dead money. By all means improve roads but motorway, the most expensive type of road, can hardly be justified where there are currently less than 5,000 cars per day.

Other projects doesn't mean the WRC. What about the Galway City Bypass, the N21, the N22, the N24, the Northern bypass of Cork? Not all roads need to be motorways, but upgrades and bypasses are badly needed. I also never said it should be done instead of the Dublin projects, but it can't be all about Dublin while ignoring the obvious needs elsewhere in the country.

cgcsb wrote: »

It takes 1 hour and 45 mins, according to google, to drive the distance so surely 1 hour and 30 mins by train is acceptable, no? A few tweeks and Irish Rail could probably offer a direct service a few times a day in 1 hour 20 mins.

Limerick and Cork are 98Km apart. Taking 1 hr 30 mins to travel 100Km is a disgrace (And it's never take me more than 1hr 10 mins to drive between the 2 cities). Limerick to Dublin is 190Km, yet the train only takes 2 hours.

cgcsb

zulutango wrote: »

The current volumes on the road is neither here nor there.

Well no, that's not true. Volume and projected future volume of traffic is the key deciding factor in the type of road to be built, in normal countries anyway. Motorway is the most expensive type of road we can build, several times the cost per km run of the previously planned, parallel, western rail corridor which was cancelled due to an insufficient amount of people travelling or projected to travel in that direction.

zulutango wrote: »

The current journey between Limerick and Cork may be 90 minutes by train but it's still more advantageous to drive because of the flexibility that driving provides.

Yes driving is more flexible and it is government policy to discourage driving in favour of more sustainable modes of transport in order to reduce our C02 emissions, something we're failing miserably at.

zulutango wrote: »

Trains aren't running between Cork and Limerick every 10 minutes. Nor is that a likely future scenario. Or maybe it is?

The most frequent intercity rail service in Ireland is Dublin-Cork which is hourly, perhaps it will go half hourly in the future due to the increasingly brisk ticket sales. However I'd struggle to think of an intercity rail service anywhere in Europe that operates a 10 minute frequency, even between much larger cities.

zulutango wrote: »

The drive on the N20 is a hard, stressful, dangerous 90 minutes between the two cities, and that's in light traffic with no hold ups. A motorway connection between the two cities would make it a relatively easy, safe and stress free journey of less than an hour. That would radically alter the relationship between Cork and Limerick. At the moment the road is almost a barrier between the cities, whereas a motorway link would be a game changer for both.

Indeed I'd me in favour of the M20 going ahead. My main worry is it would cause problems in Cork without a Northern ring road. I also think the Government is missing an opportunity here, instead of simply canning the M20, they can use this as an opportunity to plug the state owned rail service. Get Irish Rail to advertise, offer a few direct services per day, offer promotional fares and get Bus Éireann to do free Bus transferes from the stations. Use what we have when it costs us nothing ya know.

cgcsb

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Other projects doesn't mean the WRC. What about the Galway City Bypass, the N21, the N22, the N24, the Northern bypass of Cork? Not all roads need to be motorways, but upgrades and bypasses are badly needed.

Of course

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I also never said it should be done instead of the Dublin projects, but it can't be all about Dublin while ignoring the obvious needs elsewhere in the country.

Of course, but think of spending priorities. DART Underground could move half a million people in a single day and take literally tens of thousands of cars off the road. It'd be a much bigger benefit to many more people than spending the same amount on the M17 and the M25/M11

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Limerick and Cork are 98Km apart. Taking 1 hr 30 mins to travel 100Km is a disgrace (And it's never take me more than 1hr 10 mins to drive between the 2 cities). Limerick to Dublin is 190Km, yet the train only takes 2 hours.

Yes you're right the journey time needs improving, a new line from Charleville to Patrickswell would probably get that down to 55 minutes and cost a fraction of the M20, good thinkin Batman. Although that probably won't happen because this state is not serious about tackling emissions from transport or the economic impact of importing oil.

AugustusMinimus

cgcsb wrote: »

Of course



Of course, but think of spending priorities. DART Underground could move half a million people in a single day and take literally tens of thousands of cars off the road. It'd be a much bigger benefit to many more people than spending the same amount on the M17 and the M25/M11



Yes you're right the journey time needs improving, a new line from Charleville to Patrickswell would probably get that down to 55 minutes and cost a fraction of the M20, good thinkin Batman. Although that probably won't happen because this state is not serious about tackling emissions from transport or the economic impact of importing oil.

Are you saying an upgraded rail line should be built instead of the M20?

cgcsb

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Are you saying an upgraded rail line should be built instead of the M20?

No, but the possibility exists and it was not something looked into by government. An improved, safer, N20 and an improved rail link could well have been a better option financially and in terms of economic return, while also improving the eco credentials. But it'd involve some joined up thinking so it wasn't even considered as part of a solution, in the end we'll get nothing.

Carawaystick

The benefit of good road links is they allow more than one monopoly connect places along the road.
So Galway to Limerick has several coach companies providing a faster, cheaper service with more services per day than the train.
The same is also true of Galway Dublin.

cgcsb

Carawaystick wrote: »

The benefit of good road links is they allow more than one monopoly connect places along the road.
So Galway to Limerick has several coach companies providing a faster, cheaper service with more services per day than the train.
The same is also true of Galway Dublin.

The Irish rail market has technically been open to competition for a year now.

zulutango

cgcsb wrote: »

No, but the possibility exists and it was not something looked into by government. An improved, safer, N20 and an improved rail link could well have been a better option financially and in terms of economic return, while also improving the eco credentials. But it'd involve some joined up thinking so it wasn't even considered as part of a solution, in the end we'll get nothing.

A real problem with going with rail is that we have fairly low density, sprawling messes of cities, so even if you had a good rail link between Cork and Limerick a rail connection wouldn't be hugely beneficial for many of the people living in those cities, who would still have to get to the railway station at either end from their homes in the suburbs or further out.

cgcsb

zulutango wrote: »

A real problem with going with rail is that we have fairly low density, sprawling messes of cities, so even if you had a good rail link between Cork and Limerick a rail connection wouldn't be hugely beneficial for many of the people living in those cities, who would still have to get to the railway station at either end from their homes in the suburbs or further out.

Which is why we should have integrated ticketing, the leap card provides some form of integration between services. But yes, planning has been a mess, which was my original point. Building more roads won't fix it.

marno21

Freedom of Information stuff on M20 here (what the Examiner article is based on)

http://www.dttas.ie/foi/2015/m20-cork-limerick-motorway