M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

Shurwhynot

How long would this road take to build realistically?

As has been said, why not just break it up into sections? It beggars belief at times that the current road is the link between the 2nd and 3rd biggest cities in the country.

Missyelliot2

I drove from Limerick to Cork last night- the driving conditions were horrendous, as it lashed rain and there were huge floods on the Mallow-Cork section of the road.
Never was I so relieved to complete a journey.....not the safest road, by a long shot.
Doesn't matter what anybody will say to politicians calling pre-election..... We're being really dumb if we think they will take any notice- that road is just not safe.

Shurwhynot

Shurwhynot wrote: »

How long would this road take to build realistically?

Being realistic, I'm 40, I expect to be receiving my pension before this becomes reality

Given it took 20+ years to get Galway to Dublin connected by motorway and the first parts were only done as they served as commuter routes into Dublin

There is zero political motivation to get this done as the cost cannot be justified.

There's 1 way this gets prioritised, exchequer returns go through the roof again and they have to find something to soak it up.

Sadly I don't see the continued deaths on this road as sufficient motivation for them

As for building it in sections, sure they could do that, but they won't. It's easier to leave this as a massive project that they can't justify doing, rather than smaller ones they could.

As an aside, building it all in one go would be the preferred option from many standpoints

Leonard Hofstadter

The ironic thing is that the overall cost of doing it would be less if they did it all in one go, yet that's precisely the reason we're told it can't be done now, because doing it all as one project is 'too expensive'.

I don't believe it will be done in 2017 either, this is just a wishy-washy BS excuse to get the people of Cork and Limerick off the Minsiter's back. I normally despise the Examiner, but I'm glad it is the main headline on the Examiner at the moment. This ought to be made a big issue in Cork and Limerick and I hope the Government deputies and canvassers are given hell by anyone they call to over this farce.

We were shafted on Cork Airport not getting its independence from the DAA before (and look at the state of Cork Airport now with fewer and fewer flights leaving from there) by a previous Government and now we're being shafted again. It would only cost a couple of million to re-do the planning and I can't for the life of me understand why they won't at least commit to doing that, especially as even if the announced that the project was going to start tomorrow it would be many years before we'd get to the stage of actually having to spend serious dosh to get the road done.

zulutango

What baffles me is why the opposition parties aren't all over it.

Leonard Hofstadter

zulutango wrote: »

What baffles me is why the opposition parties aren't all over it.

Hopefully they'll kick up a fuss during the election. Thing is though FF screwed us over with the Airport so it's not like they'd do any better. Nonetheless I do hope the opposition parties give the current Government hell for it.

As I've said earlier, I'm not particularly bothered by them not committing funds to build the road (it won't be needed for a few years to come anyway), but they deserve to be given hell for not even committing to restart the planning and making it 'shovel ready' for when the money is there to do it. That's the current problem really and it's only a few million to do all the groundwork for the road, so there is no excuse for not doing that much at least.

JCX BXC

captainspeed wrote: »

We were shafted on Cork Airport not getting its independence from the DAA before (and look at the state of Cork Airport now with fewer and fewer flights leaving from there)

You can't really use that argument anymore.

guylikeme

zulutango wrote: »

What baffles me is why the opposition parties aren't all over it.

Most of their constituents live near either city and dont travel to the other one.

The roads to/from Dublin were vote winners as they are noticed by almost everyone (who doesn't know someone who now works/lives in Dublin, cant say the same for the other cities so much).

Bang for buck-wise, the politicians will win a vote by opposing Irish Water, blaming the bankers/EU sooner than for pushing this road. Its their electorate's fault really.

Leonard Hofstadter

Carnacalla wrote: »

You can't really use that argument anymore.

Why not? Did they or did they not break their promise to make Cork Airport independent of the DAA and debt free? Shannon is free from the clutches of the DAA and has gone from strength to strength since local management got to run it.

The reason I'm bringing this up is because we will hear all sorts of promises from FF (and others) about doing something about this appalling road, but before saying 'well done FF' we ought to look at what they did for Cork the last time they had their hands on the tiller of Government power, and in reality it wasn't any better than the current outfit.

JCX BXC

captainspeed wrote: »

Why not? Did they or did they not break their promise to make Cork Airport independent of the DAA and debt free? Shannon is free from the clutches of the DAA and has gone from strength to strength since local management got to run it.

Because Cork airport is going to have an amazing year next year. Shannon isn't going strength to strength at all anymore. You should investigate these issues, rather than believeing the mainstream media bias.

Leonard Hofstadter

Passenger numbers are down, that's hardly a recipe for success. I use the airport quite regularly and it's getting quieter not busier (in stark contrast to the city centre and Mahon Point I might ahead). Other than the flights to Boston, nothing's happening with Cork, it's going backwards. Flights to Nice used to run every day during the summer before, the last year it was Friday and Sunday, my understanding is there's going to be none this year. The evening flight to/from Manchester no longer runs on Fridays. The lack of a decent connection to Limerick/Galway doesn't help matters. Anyway, I suspect we're going way O/T at this point.

JCX BXC

captainspeed wrote: »

Passenger numbers are down, that's hardly a recipe for success. I use the airport quite regularly and it's getting quieter not busier (in stark contrast to the city centre and Mahon Point I might ahead). Other than the flights to Boston, nothing's happening with Cork, it's going backwards. Flights to Nice used to run every day during the summer before, the last year it was Friday and Sunday, my understanding is there's going to be none this year. The evening flight to/from Manchester no longer runs on Fridays. The lack of a decent connection to Limerick/Galway doesn't help matters. Anyway, I suspect we're going way O/T at this point.

Negative, very incorrect. Rather than drag the thread further OT, take a look at this thread :http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057506089

JupiterKid

I can't understand why this road can't be done in sections - piecemeal - with the first section to built a very urgently required bypass of Buttevant and that town's atrocious approach roads.

The existing N20 isn't just below par - it's a clear safety hazard and an absolute disgrace for a route connecting the State's second and third largest cities.

mydiscworld

I've said it before but an announcement pre Election 2016 that this motorway is to go back into the planning process including new route options to build it in one go or piecemeal, which would cost very little and take years, is an easy win for Gov TDs trying to get re-elected

Schadenfreudia

mydiscworld wrote: »

I've said it before but an announcement pre Election 2016 that this motorway is to go back into the planning process including new route options to build it in one go or piecemeal, which would cost very little and take years, is an easy win for Gov TDs trying to get re-elected

Would anyone be foolish to actually believe them?

They'd need to announce a target start of construction date and explicitly commit to it regardless of planning problems.

Leonard Hofstadter

mydiscworld wrote: »

I've said it before but an announcement pre Election 2016 that this motorway is to go back into the planning process including new route options to build it in one go or piecemeal, which would cost very little and take years, is an easy win for Gov TDs trying to get re-elected

Exactly, which is why it is all the more mind boggling that they're not even committing to do this much. There's votes for them in Cork South Central, Cork North Central, Cork South West, Cork North West, Cork East, Limerick City and Limerick County, that's 25 out of the 158 seats the next Dáil will have. Considering that they're touch and go for holding some seats in constituencies like Cork South Central (FG likely to keep their two seats but may lose one to SF) and Cork East (Sherlock should hold on but no guarantee) it makes it even more confusing.

Leonard Hofstadter

Carnacalla wrote: »

Negative, very incorrect. Rather than drag the thread further OT, take a look at this thread :http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057506089

Thanks for the link (and your PM). Great to know there's plans to reverse the decline and to improve connectivity between Cork and the rest of the world. Hope this isn't just promises to butter electorate up before the election, I note the concerns about the performance of the London City Airport route for example.

JCX BXC

captainspeed wrote: »

Thanks for the link (and your PM). Great to know there's plans to reverse the decline and to improve connectivity between Cork and the rest of the world. Hope this isn't just promises to butter electorate up before the election, I note the concerns about the performance of the London City Airport route for example.

No problem.

Of course though, as you have said in lesser words, the improvement of the airport IS NOT a substitution for the road

cjpm

Was thinking about the state of this "National Road".

We the users will have to make it an election issue in 2016. It must be brought to the forefront or we will still be driving through the Ballybeg Bends and Buttevent in 30 years time.

I would suggest that when the election is announced we should all e-mail our local candidates with some of the following points of information that I have compiled, feel free to add to it.....

Cut and paste the bits that you feel strongly about and send it to your local candidate.






I understand that the longer the M20 is put on hold, the earlier work selecting the route, doing the environmental reports, etc will all have to be carried out again, thus further wasting taxpayers money.

Due to the lack of political will to have this route prioritised, users of the N20 risk their lives on a daily basis on this substandard route.


This scheme is a critical piece of infrastructure for the entire country which has once again been put on the long finger by the Government.


Economic Value
· This road is the missing link between the 2nd and 3rd largest cities in the Rep. of Ireland.


· It is also an integral part of the “Atlantic Corridor”.


· Travel times between Cork and Limerick are at least 1:30 and often up to 2:30 due to traffic congestion and the poor standard of the N20. Cork to Limerick is a distance of approximately 100km, and it would be possible to constantly travel between the two cities in under an hour easily on a dual carriageway or motorway.


· Critics of the M20 project state that the current N20 does not have the traffic volumes to justify a motorway scheme. A huge number of drivers in Munster are aware of the standard of the N20 and choose to use longer alternative route to avoid all or sections of it. For example drivers from south and east cork will travel on the M8, and then take a cross country route to Limerick instead of using the N20. Having a proper motorway between the two cities would actually attract more traffic.


· The cost estimate for the project should be revised due to the current economic conditions. A figure of €800 million is misleading due to the large reduction in land prices, building materials and labour since the project was originally costed. Civil Engineering companies are aggressively pricing works in the current market in order to win work. The project will never be as good value for money as it is now.

Road Safety
· Sections of the existing N20 alignment are over 150 years old, dating from famine times (Ballybeg Section south of Buttevant), and this can be verified on the OSI web-site. These sections have completely inadequate forward sight distances for a National route.


· The 7.8km long wire rope section was installed in 2003 as a pilot project to try and reduce head on collisions. Wire rope barriers are particularly lethal to motorcyclists.


· North of Rathduff, and just south of Ivy Bridge junction, there is one particularly sub-standard road curve with an incorrect crossfall, and during icy weather cars simply slide straight off the road into the verge.


· The road safety record of the N20 is appalling, more akin to a road in a third world country.


· Mallow, Buttevant and Charleville are totally gridlocked with traffic during the morning and evening peaks. The traffic going through these towns present a serious hazard to those living and doing their daily business in the towns.



Environment
· Having a good quality road between the two cities would lead to a significant reduction in carbon emissions. In addition, vehicles stuck in heavy traffic and constantly changing speed are very inefficient. As a result all users of a motorway would have reduced fuel costs.


· Watercourses in the vicinity of the current N20 would be severely polluted should a large fuel spill or other pollution event occur due to the lack of petrol interceptors and similar pollution control measures on the current road drainage system. A new road would have proper measures in place to prevent this.



Parish Pump Politics
· This route has been neglected over the years by the local politicians as it is not seen as a vote getter. None of the local TD’s has been pushing for the M20 as it barely affects their constituency. This is due to the geography of the route; it passes though a section of Cork North Central, and Limerick South, and more or less between Cork North West and Cork East. The same politician will now be clamouring to get small upgrade schemes (short sections of by-passes, traffic calming etc.) constructed in their constituency to prove to their voters that they deliver, a similar tactic to Jackie Healy-Rea. They should be looking at the bigger picture and pushing for a proper dedicated route instead of settling for a few million euro allocated for a traffic calming scheme in their own home patch.


Edited to add link to Examiner Article

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/cork-limerick-motorway-benefits-outweigh-costs-376577.html

Further proof that Pascal and Leo have been bullsh*tting the people of Cork and Limerick.

FFS Get the damn thing moving

That overlay job that is being done currently has a similar cost to getting the M20 through planning. What a waste of money. And it's not finished yet, expect traffic mayhem from March onwards.......

jgbyr

www.irishexaminer.com/business/proposed-cork-limerick-m20-motorwaywould-pay-off-for-state-376560.html

cjpm

Well FF will be getting my no 1 after this. Never thought I'd vote for them again!

GIVING the green light to the Cork-Limerick motorway would be one of the very first acts in a Fianna Fáil-led
Government as a matter of utmost priority, according to leader Micheál Martin


http://www.eveningecho.ie/cork-news/1564409/1564409/

Schadenfreudia

cjpm wrote: »

Well FF will be getting my no 1 after this. Never thought I'd vote for them again!

GIVING the green light to the Cork-Limerick motorway would be one of the very first acts in a Fianna Fáil-led
Government as a matter of utmost priority, according to leader Micheál Martin

Given the man is from Cork it has taken him a rather long time to find a voice on the subject.

I guess it's easy to promise what you don't expect to be able to deliver...

Deedsie

cjpm wrote: »

Well FF will be getting my no 1 after this. Never thought I'd vote for them again!

GIVING the green light to the Cork-Limerick motorway would be one of the very first acts in a Fianna Fáil-led
Government as a matter of utmost priority, according to leader Micheál Martin


http://www.eveningecho.ie/cork-news/1564409/1564409/

Easy say it when you are sitting on ~20% in the opinion polls after ruling out coalition with the other two parties on double digits.

Promises made by a single party are often discarded when trying to form a plan for government in a coalition.

irishfeen

cjpm wrote: »

Well FF will be getting my no 1 after this. Never thought I'd vote for them again!

GIVING the green light to the Cork-Limerick motorway would be one of the very first acts in a Fianna Fáil-led
Government as a matter of utmost priority, according to leader Micheál Martin


http://www.eveningecho.ie/cork-news/1564409/1564409/

... What's funny is that you think FF aren't saying this just to get your vote. They have almost certainly given no thought whatsoever in how they will actually finance the project.

Cosmo Kramer

Martin can offer the electorate anything he wants safe in the knowledge that he won't ever be in a position to have to deliver on the promise as a head of Government. If these kind of 'promises' are enough to suck in a few additional voters it's a no lose situation for him.

cjpm

irishfeen wrote: »

... What's funny is that you think FF aren't saying this just to get your vote. They have almost certainly given no thought whatsoever in how they will actually finance the project.

I know exactly what FF are up to.... I'm just as able to bullsh*t when required.

No harm to be letting on to be throwing them a vote.

Might light a fire under the FG policy makers arses on the subject if they thought they would be losing votes over this scheme!

The editorial in today's examiner gave Pascal a dig about looking outside The Pale.

Leonard Hofstadter

As Martin has effectively ruled himself out of going into Government in about a month's time, he is free to promise whatever he wants because he won't have to deliver on it. That said, I am glad he is raising the issue because the current Government's handling of the issue is a thundering disgrace. Even if I did live in Cork I still wouldn't vote for FF though!

power101

The proposed Cork-Limerick M20 motorway would not only recoup the State’s investment but double it if the project was given the green light, the Government’s original research shows.

Richard Bowen, senior engineer with the Transport Infrastructure Ireland, formerly the National Road Authority, said the analysis showed that, even in the “worst case scenario”, the benefits of the scheme were significant.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/proposed-cork-limerick-m20-motorwaywould-pay-off-for-state-376560.html

cjpm

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/start-planning-process-for-cork-limerick-motorway-376704.html

Finally a FG TD pushing for this. Silence from the rest of them and Sherlock too. They won't rock the boat with the top brass in the parties

Bacchus

Expect many promises over the next month. Believe not a single one (particularly the big ones), regardless of the party.