M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

cjpm

In the past three weeks three lives have been needlessly lost within a few miles of Mallow due to the absence of a central barrier.

And this will continue to be the case for the foreseeable future due to Fine Gael's decision to completely Mothball this scheme. Vradker and Pascal aren't too bothered about N20 users risking their lives on a daily basis.

Up to 16000 vehicles a day travelling on a road with a 4 inch wide white line between Northbound and Southbound traffic. Add in numerous junctions, dodgy road curves, insufficient sight lines and Agri traffic.

It's all about probability, and that would suggest that plenty more lives will be lost before a spade is turned on the M20.

Shame on them.

Shurwhynot

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Well you certainly haven't.

The M18 section being built from Gort to Rathmorrisey is part of the road from Limerick to Galway, the third and fourth largest cities in the republic.

The M17 is part of the road from Galway to Sligo, and Galway to Tuam is one of the busier sections of single-carriageway national primary roads in the country.

To characterise the project as a 'road from Gort to Tuam' is just plain stupid.

I see someone has posted this comment on an article in the Independent:



What fecking eejit does that remind people of?

If this is some sort of dig at me, then get a life my dear man

You're defending the indefensible

Geogregor

M20 is clearly badly needed. But it seems that some people are so angry that it is not progressing yet that they are venting their frustrations by complaining about M17/M18 as some not needed vanity project.

Well, at least M18 is part of the same corridor linking Cork, Limerick and Galway. One could argue that building M17 is logical addition to that project, allowing to tie the traffic from the north (Sligo) without sending it to M18 via Galway. (which as I understand has its own traffic issues).

So both projects are needed, M20 probably more so but it seems that priority for M17/M18 was mostly due to more advanced planning and land being CPOed when crash happened. It seems logical to me.

So rather than complaining that M17/M18 is getting build we should probably concentrate more on analysing possible scenarios of how M20 can be build quickly.
What can realistically be done in this subject?

JCX BXC

With that logic we should be upgrading all roads in the country to Motorway standard.

I don't accept that argument, not for one second. The current N20 is only unsafe for those who drive unsafely.

lawred2

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Another fecking eejit - it's not a fecking motorway between Gort and Tuam.

It's part of the Atlantic Corridor route connecting Rosslare, Waterford, Cork, Limerick, Shannon Airport, Galway, Sligo, Letterkenny and Derry.

Giving out about the M18/M17 sections currently being built would be like giving out about a motorway being built between Mallow and Croom.

Engage your brain before you post.

Less of the personals

Cork - Limerick should have been to even the least brain engaged person a higher priority than Gort - Tuam. All roads are built in stages. How is it that a motorway grade stretch between two regional towns was deemed higher priority than a stretch of road between two of our more major urban centres? A stretch that was deemed to be substandard and unsafe near on three decades ago?

lawred2

Carnacalla wrote: »

With that logic we should be upgrading all roads in the country to Motorway standard.

I don't accept that argument, not for one second. The current N20 is only unsafe for those who drive unsafely.

Have you ever travelled on it?

moyners

Carnacalla wrote: »

With that logic we should be upgrading all roads in the country to Motorway standard.

I don't accept that argument, not for one second. The current N20 is only unsafe for those who drive unsafely.

Everybody (and, no offence, but that includes you) can drive unsafely. We can all lose our concentration for a split second and make mistakes. The consequences of doing that when you're faced with oncoming traffic and junctions/sharp bends tend to be much more severe - this has been shown over and over.

Nobody here is arguing that every road in the country should be a motorway - but the main city links with high traffic volumes would be nice.

lawred2 wrote: »

Less of the personals

Cork - Limerick should have been to even the least brain engaged person a higher priority than Gort - Tuam. All roads are built in stages. How is it that a motorway grade stretch between two regional towns was deemed higher priority than a stretch of road between two of our more major urban centres? A stretch that was deemed to be substandard and unsafe near on three decades ago?

It wasn't higher priority - it was just lucky enough to be too far gone down the planning route for the minister to stop it. They got lucky, I don't think we should be begrudging the people who have to use that road. Even to keep calling it Gort-Tuam is a bit silly since it's really Limerick to Galway plus a bit.

lawred2

moyners wrote: »

Everybody (and, no offence, but that includes you) can drive unsafely. We can all lose our concentration for a split second and make mistakes. The consequences of doing that when you're faced with oncoming traffic and junctions/sharp bends tend to be much more severe - this has been shown over and over.

Nobody here is arguing that every road in the country should be a motorway - but the main city links with high traffic volumes would be nice.



It wasn't higher priority - it was just lucky enough to be too far gone down the planning route for the minister to stop it. They got lucky, I don't think we should be begrudging the people who have to use that road. Even to keep calling it Gort-Tuam is a bit silly since it's really Limerick to Galway plus a bit.

Fair point

grumpymunster

moyners wrote: »

Everybody (and, no offence, but that includes you) can drive unsafely. We can all lose our concentration for a split second and make mistakes. The consequences of doing that when you're faced with oncoming traffic and junctions/sharp bends tend to be much more severe - this has been shown over and over.

Indeed road engineering has been shown to have a significant impact on road safety as it reduces risk. Of course people should drive safely but being distracted for a second on a busy poorly engineered road will often lead to fatalities, much less often on a well engineered road.

AugustusMinimus

Carnacalla wrote: »

With that logic we should be upgrading all roads in the country to Motorway standard.

I don't accept that argument, not for one second. The current N20 is only unsafe for those who drive unsafely.

I hope no unsafe driver causes an accident with you on the N20 so, if indeed you ever use this road.

AugustusMinimus

I find it staggering the amount of people outside of Munster against this road being built. Other schemes aren't half as criticised such as the New Ross or Enniscorthy bypasses.

I have a huge fear that we won't see this road for 20 years with huge infrastructural investment going to Dublin mass transport instead.

lawred2

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

I find it staggering the amount of people outside of Munster against this road being built. Other schemes aren't half as criticised such as the New Ross or Enniscorthy bypasses.

I have a huge fear that we won't see this road for 20 years with huge infrastructural investment going to Dublin mass transport instead.

Without a functioning Dublin; you can forget about funding for rural projects.

Vanquished

Even leaving aside the safety issue for a moment. The primitive, substandard alignment of the current N20 along with the capacity constraints renders it a significant impediment to commercial activities and investment. There is absolutely no certainty whatsoever to journey times between the two cities. A consistent speed cannot be achieved as you encounter dawdlers, agricultural traffic and what seem to be incessant roadworks.

The towns and villages along the route need to be returned to their communities also. Thousands of cars and HGVs trundling through and clogging up the likes of Charleville, Buttevant etc is of benefit to nobody. Certainly not the towns themselves!

AugustusMinimus

Deedsie wrote: »

Oh for goodness sake, this Dublin v rural thing has to stop. Infrastructure investment is desperately needed in Dublin and the rest of the country. It's not one or the other. They are all needed M20, Metro North & Dart Underground are all vitally important and will benefit the entire country.

Given current funding it is almost certainly one of the other sadly.

No where did I say that Dublin mass transport funding wasn't needed by the way.

Shurwhynot

Carnacalla wrote: »

With that logic we should be upgrading all roads in the country to Motorway standard.

I don't accept that argument, not for one second. The current N20 is only unsafe for those who drive unsafely.

Safety is only one reason.

How about upgrading the road between our 2nd and 3rd largest cities to benefit the volume of people travelling the road, trade, tourism etc?

And I am going to be benefitting greatly from the M17/18, I'm only using it as an example. But I do travel the current N20 quite a bit, and it is always a terrible experience, particularly from Croom to Mallow.

I do honestly believe it all comes down to politics and good politicians fighting for their area. The Healy Rae's being a perfect example of this. It says it all about the politicians in Limerick & Cork.

spacetweek

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Given current funding it is almost certainly one of the other sadly.

No where did I say that Dublin mass transport funding wasn't needed by the way.

You did say it. It's a sadly common rural vs urban divide point of view.

It is not acceptable for it to be one project or the other; it absolutely must be both.

spacetweek

Geogregor wrote: »

So rather than complaining that M17/M18 is getting build we should probably concentrate more on analysing possible scenarios of how M20 can be build quickly.
What can realistically be done in this subject?

The only thing that will help is for the Government to change their mind on it. They said previously they will review the decision in 2017.

JCX BXC

Was on the N20 infact last week!

The only place third world like would be the bit between Croom and Charleville.

I am in favour of the M20! What's annoying me is the argument that people are really just pulling out of their arses. Its a vital connectivity for the several hundreds of thousands that it would affect

Shurwhynot

spacetweek wrote: »

The only thing that will help is for the Government to change their mind on it. They said previously they will review the decision in 2017.

Well given recent political events, Fine Gael are no longer going to be the majority party in the Dail. Fianna Fail are going to have some input, so you would imagine that when the review does happen, FF will be putting enormous pressure on FG (if FG form a minority govt) to get this built as soon as possible.

The €800m projected cost is probably throwing some people off, but it's not like this needs to be forked out in a lump sum, this would be spent over the duration of the construction (which I would imagine would take 4-5 years?).

Cookiemunster

Carnacalla wrote: »

Was on the N20 infact last week!

The only place third world like would be the bit between Croom and Charleville.

I am in favour of the M20! What's annoying me is the argument that people are really just pulling out of their arses. Its a vital connectivity for the several hundreds of thousands that it would affect

Did you go any further South than Charleville? Because the bends South of Buttevant are nothing short of a disgrace for a national road in the 21st century. The road North of Buttevant isn't much better.

Cookiemunster

Shurwhynot wrote: »

The €800m projected cost is probably throwing some people off, but it's not like this needs to be forked out in a lump sum, this would be spent over the duration of the construction (which I would imagine would take 4-5 years?).

If built as a PPP like the M17/M18 then the cost would be spread over 30 years.

Chris_5339762

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Did you go any further South than Charleville? Because the bends South of Buttevant are nothing short of a disgrace for a national road in the 21st century. The road North of Buttevant isn't much better.

I keep saying it, but the bends south of Buttevant are on exactly the same alignment that they were in the late 1800s. Seriously.

Shurwhynot

Cookiemunster wrote: »

If built as a PPP like the M17/M18 then the cost would be spread over 30 years.

OK didn't realise that. Even more of a reason to commit to this road sooner rather than later surely? It's fair to say that it will get built eventually, but when is the question.

marmurr1916

Deleted

Sam Russell

Mod: @marmur1916: Could you not use intemperate language. Save that for After hours.

jgbyr

http://www.eveningecho.ie/cork-news/pleas-road-upgrade-mallow-road-deaths/1974356/

Schadenfreudia

Carnacalla wrote: »

With that logic we should be upgrading all roads in the country to Motorway standard.

I don't accept that argument, not for one second. The current N20 is only unsafe for those who drive unsafely.

:rolleyes:

I profoundly disagree....

hans aus dtschl

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

I find it staggering the amount of people outside of Munster against this road being built. Other schemes aren't half as criticised such as the New Ross or Enniscorthy bypasses.

I have a huge fear that we won't see this road for 20 years with huge infrastructural investment going to Dublin mass transport instead.

I'm only just beginning to notice this now: it's almost as though this road would be a sop to the people of the region, rather than a really critical piece of infrastructure for the country.

I see the M20 as being up there with Dublin Port Tunnel, Jack Lynch Tunnel, Red Cow Interchange etc in terms of infrastructure projects: designed to benefit the economy as a whole rather than a specific group.

I will probably rarely even use the M20 when it's finally done, but am totally sold on its importance.

Shurwhynot

[QUOTE<snip>[/QUOTE]

Someone's Mommy needs to take their iPad away from her internet warrior son :rolleyes:

nordydan

marmurr1916 wrote: »

<snip>.

Was discussing roads on this forum long before the separate forum was set up. And I never use bad language