M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

ricimaki

threeball wrote: »

Any Limerick to Cork motorway should not follow the current N20 but should instead follow the tipperary waterford road and merge with the m8 at cashel. The road could then in time continue to waterford taking in carrick on suir, clonmel etc. The N20 is quite sufficient as is if the trade and visting traffic were routed away towards mitchelstown/cashel.
this would then mean you could get round the country from any major city/town to any other with relative ease.

There was another thread discussing this point a while ago. A traffic survey of the N20 route found that most of the traffic is commuter, not city to city traffic. I agree that the N24 route does need upgrading, but the N20 is a much worse route with more traffic on it. Mallow, Buttevant and Charleville will all have to be bypassed eventually, so its better to incorporate it into the one scheme. The N20 route would also be shorter for inter-city traffic.

Isambard

JCX BXC wrote: »

I dread to think of the nightmare that would be the Kinsale road roundabout.

Would the route be any faster than just travelling the current N20?

what?

Isambard

ricimaki wrote: »

There was another thread discussing this point a while ago. A traffic survey of the N20 route found that most of the traffic is commuter, not city to city traffic. I agree that the N24 route does need upgrading, but the N20 is a much worse route with more traffic on it. Mallow, Buttevant and Charleville will all have to be bypassed eventually, so its better to incorporate it into the one scheme. The N20 route would also be shorter for inter-city traffic.

much shorter in fact than going via Cashel (?) Cahir or (the most logical) direct from Mitchelstown.

The M20 needs to be built for the benefit of the traffic on it currently which as said is mostly local commuter into one of the cities. Going via the M8 would onlyremove the end to end traffic and the N20 would still need upgrading.

JCX BXC

Isambard wrote: »

what?

Constructive.

I meant the Dunkettle interchange, but of course anyone who really wanted to discuss anything would have guessed that immediately.

Isambard

the Dunkettle interchange is planned (at some stage) to be upgraded and no doubt that would be included in the scheme.

JCX BXC

Isambard wrote: »

the Dunkettle interchange is planned (at some stage) to be upgraded and no doubt that would be included in the scheme.

Dumping all that traffic onto the Dunkettle interchange would still be a nightmare.

spacetweek

JCX BXC wrote: »

Constructive.

I meant the Dunkettle interchange, but of course anyone who really wanted to discuss anything would have guessed that immediately.

I don't think that was clear to any of us and you surely must know that Dunkettle is about to be entirely rebuilt anyway.

marno21

MOD:

The title of this thread instructs you to read post 2338, on page 156, telling you that this thread is only for the discussion of the planned M20 motorway between Cork and Limerick via the existing N20 corridor.

It tells you that all discussion on the route via Mitchelstown/Cahir should go here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057600214

The above routing was dismissed at the feasibility study stage for the last M20.

NO further discussion on the Mitchelstown/Cahir route in this thread. Work away in the other thread mind

Any further posts regarding the other routings in this thread will be deleted.

marno21

Isambard

meanwhile word is that rebuilding the railway station roundabout in Mallow is imminent to allow re-designation of lanes to help the traffic flow. Not exactly good news for the hoped for M20 but needed all the same.

boardsuser1

Isambard wrote: »

meanwhile word is that rebuilding the railway station roundabout in Mallow is imminent to allow re-designation of lanes to help the traffic flow. Not exactly good news for the hoped for M20 but needed all the same.

The M20 will most likely be a Lego type project, built in stages.

serfboard

KC161 wrote: »

The M20 will most likely be a Lego type project, built in stages.

Fine, then, do it that way.

One of the oft-quoted reasons for not building the M20 would be that it would cost too much - ignoring the fact that it could be built in stages as other projects were and are. After all, we built a bypass around Athlone, and came back to it almost 20 years later to integrate it into the Dublin-Galway motorway.

If it is to be done this way, then the priority should be safety based - meaning Buttevant to Mallow should get done first, to take the traffic away from the highly-dangerous Quarry section.

Isambard

The same was done with Cashel and Nenagh. I'd say do it that way starting with bypassing Buttevant and then Charleville. The section south of Mallow isn't too bad and just had miilions spent on it.

Reputable Rog

Isambard wrote: »

. The section south of Mallow isn't too bad and just had miilions spent on it.

The section south of Mallow is very poor and is at capacity, just because they resurfaced it does not make it a good road.

marno21

Reputable Rog wrote: »

The section south of Mallow is very poor and is at capacity, just because they resurfaced it does not make it a good road.

Mallow - Cork should've been dualled from day 1. No idea why it was built as a massively wide SC. At least the existing road will be used for the motorway.

Isambard

Reputable Rog wrote: »

The section south of Mallow is very poor and is at capacity, just because they resurfaced it does not make it a good road.

the 2+1 section and the section through Rathduff were entirely rebuilt very recently. The rest if it is pretty good , with a lot of good quality resurfacing done,and the priority is elsewhere as stated. It's nowhere near capacity, is quite quiet in fact compared to roads abroad and elsewhere in Ireland.

Isambard

marno21 wrote: »

Mallow - Cork should've been dualled from day 1. No idea why it was built as a massively wide SC. At least the existing road will be used for the motorway.

I agree. It defied logic to rebuilt the 2+1 section as it stood, rather than widening it slightly to form a dual carriageway.

Chris_5339762

Cork to Mallow is not great but acceptable. Buttevant to Croom bypass is an embarassment and should be done first.

marno21

I was on the road a good bit last week and it actually feels worse every time you drive it. Between the Ballybeg bends, the bends around Lisballyhea, Buttevant and Charleville towns, and what I find surprising that they don't mention more, the section between the southern end of the Croom bypass and O'Rourkes Cross. The cross section of the road along this stretch is very narrow, and there's severe bends between the Croom BP and Banogue, which are only slightly less twisty than the Ballybeg bends. You'd nearly **** yourself at times when you're going southbound and there's a truck coming against you.

It's barely upto the standard of a regional road in parts. Between the number of deaths last year, the amount of people who use it and complain about it, I'm baffled at times that it's such a political non issue. Next year you can drive from Tuam to Patrickswell on a motorway/high quality DC and then at Patrickswell you're carted onto a twisty botharín as you transit towards the biggest city on the Atlantic Corridor.

Hopefully between Martin likely being next Taoiseach and Coveney being a possible FG leader, it'll become more of an issue and be sorted. It's scandalous it hasn't been sorted yet. Especially with the continued expansion of Cork Port and Foynes Port, and the need to rebalance the country's economic growth towards the second and third cities.

road_high

marno21 wrote: »

I was on the road a good bit last week and it actually feels worse every time you drive it. Between the Ballybeg bends, the bends around Lisballyhea, Buttevant and Charleville towns, and what I find surprising that they don't mention more, the section between the southern end of the Croom bypass and O'Rourkes Cross. The cross section of the road along this stretch is very narrow, and there's severe bends between the Croom BP and Banogue, which are only slightly less twisty than the Ballybeg bends. You'd nearly **** yourself at times when you're going southbound and there's a truck coming against you.

It's barely upto the standard of a regional road in parts. Between the number of deaths last year, the amount of people who use it and complain about it, I'm baffled at times that it's such a political non issue. Next year you can drive from Tuam to Patrickswell on a motorway/high quality DC and then at Patrickswell you're carted onto a twisty botharín as you transit towards the biggest city on the Atlantic Corridor.

Hopefully between Martin likely being next Taoiseach and Coveney being a possible FG leader, it'll become more of an issue and be sorted. It's scandalous it hasn't been sorted yet. Especially with the continued expansion of Cork Port and Foynes Port, and the need to rebalance the country's economic growth towards the second and third cities.

Can I just offer an opinion without knowing a lot of the local issues but is it possible it suited both Cork and Limerick (in a roundabout way) to keep this road so poor? I.e. a good and proper motorway between either city it could be argued undermines somewhat the case for both Cork and Shannon Airports at either end? (plus numerous other public infrastructure). Hence the silly lack of will to get it upgraded? As I say it's just an opinion...

Isambard

Another benefit of building the M20 would be taking many trucks and other traffic off the truly awful N73 (to the M8 Mitchelstown). It wouldn't remove Rosslare bound traffic, but Dublin bound vehicles would use the M20 M7 route no doubt. (for me the difference is only 10km)

The N73 is a dreadful road, and the N72 to Fermoy is little better

Reputable Rog

Isambard wrote: »

Another benefit of building the M20 would be taking many trucks and other traffic off the truly awful N73 (to the M8 Mitchelstown). It wouldn't remove Rosslare bound traffic, but Dublin bound vehicles would use the M20 M7 route no doubt. (for me the difference is only 10km)

The N73 is a dreadful road, and the N72 to Fermoy is little better

As I said last week.

marno21

Michael Moynihan, Cork North West, Fianna Fail asked Ross about the M20 again this week:

Shane Ross wrote:

As Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, I have responsibility for overall policy and funding in relation to the national roads programme. The planning, design and implementation of individual national road projects is a matter for the Transport Infrastructure Ireland (TII) under the Roads Acts 1993-2015 in conjunction with the local authorities concerned. As I have indicated previously, I have agreed that TII can proceed with some early activities related to restarting planning for the upgrade of the Cork to Limerick link. As Minister I have to work within the capital budgets available to my Department and in this context additional funding will be needed if the project is to be progressed further.

I will review the scope for advancing work on the Cork to Limerick link once the planned Review of the Capital Plan is completed.

JCX BXC

Not the most pessimistic thing I've seen. Hopefully pressure will continue to be piled on.

serfboard

Shane Ross wrote:

As Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, I have responsibility for overall policy and funding in relation to the national roads programme. The planning, design and implementation of individual national road projects is a matter for the Transport Infrastructure Ireland (TII)

OK, so that's grand. You just have responsibility for the overall policy, and the budget - you're not involved in the details of which roads get built when and where. These are "operational matters" dealt with by TII.

Shane Ross wrote:

I have agreed that TII can proceed with some early activities related to restarting planning for the upgrade of the Cork to Limerick link.

Wait a minute - now you're saying that you do have responsibility for individual projects. Which is it?

Shane Ross wrote:

I will review the scope for advancing work on the Cork to Limerick link once the planned Review of the Capital Plan is completed.

OK - so it's clear you do have responsibility for individual projects. So what were you bulshítting about earlier?

Shane Ross wrote:

As Minister I have to work within the capital budgets available to my Department

OK - so you don't even have responsibility for the budget. So why doesn't TII just get it's money straight from the Dept of Finance, and we can get rid of you.

Ross is a tool, who has absolutely no interest in his department, apart from when it allows him to go on junkets to Brazil, and so on.

His position on this is consistent with his hands off approach to Bus Eireann, which will see the company become insolvent this year.

But while he doesn't want to get involved in "operational matters" in his own department, he has no problem sticking his nose into the "operational matters" in other departments:

The Irish Times wrote:

Minister for Transport Shane Ross will be granted one of his main demands for entering government, with the reopening of a Garda station in his constituency set to be announced within weeks.

The Independent TD pushed for the reopening of Stepaside Garda station in the Dublin Rathdown constituency. A review of all closed stations was included in the government deal he concluded with Fine Gael.

Such is Mr Ross’s anticipation of the decision that he has prepared leaflets, understood to include pictures of him in the surrounding housing estates, welcoming the station’s reopening.

mydiscworld

When is the planned Review of the Capital Plan?

A mid-term review came out in Jan

http://www.merrionstreet.ie/en/News-Room/News/Mid-term_review_of_the_Capital_Plan.html

pigtown

How important do people feel this project is to the respective cities? If Limerick and Cork were both given €500 million to be spent on their city do you think this road would be built?

Personally I don't think Limerick would chose this over city centre regeneration and investment in public transport. I'd argue that Cork would chose to spend it on the docklands and a BRT route.

Isambard

It's not about Cork City and Limerick City infrastructure, it's about infrastructure for people travelling to those Cities and beyond.

It's an essential link for us, as it stands I am about an hour from the nearest motorway access and I'm in the very north of Co Cork. Much of Kerry and West Cork will be much further still away from the network. We need this link, not just for commuting but also for trade and tourism.

boardsuser1

Isambard wrote: »

It's not about Cork City and Limerick City infrastructure, it's about infrastructure for people travelling to those Cities and beyond.

It's an essential link for us, as it stands I am about an hour from the nearest motorway access and I'm in the very north of Co Cork. Much of Kerry and West Cork will be much further still away from the network. We need this link, not just for commuting but also for trade and tourism.

I wouldn't be surprised if they managed to build a motorway in time.

pigtown

Isambard wrote: »

It's not about Cork City and Limerick City infrastructure, it's about infrastructure for people travelling to those Cities and beyond.

It's an essential link for us, as it stands I am about an hour from the nearest motorway access and I'm in the very north of Co Cork. Much of Kerry and West Cork will be much further still away from the network. We need this link, not just for commuting but also for trade and tourism.

I get why this is said and I was very much in agreement but I've realised that no one has said why it's essential. I get the theory that it will increase trade but have any studies been undertaken to prove this?
Do we know if it will be detrimental to Limerick as the smaller city?
By how much will tourism to Kerry and Cork be increased?

It's easy to assume that a new road and faster connections will be a great asset but I'd like these decisions to be made with cold hard facts, and the businesses that would be affected, positively or negatively, to be fully aware of the implications.

zulutango

pigtown wrote: »

I get why this is said and I was very much in agreement but I've realised that no one has said why it's essential. I get the theory that it will increase trade but have any studies been undertaken to prove this?
Do we know if it will be detrimental to Limerick as the smaller city?
By how much will tourism to Kerry and Cork be increased?

It's easy to assume that a new road and faster connections will be a great asset but I'd like these decisions to be made with cold hard facts, and the businesses that would be affected, positively or negatively, to be fully aware of the implications.

It's a very good point. Intuitively the motorway makes sense, but intuitively isn't really good enough. The hard facts seem to only extend to how much quicker the journey between the two cities will be. Everything after that is crystal ball gazing.

If for example it led to the decline of Limerick (or indeed of Cork) would so many people be clamouring for it?

In saying that, increasing the connectivity between two important urban/economic areas surely has to be a boon to both? As you said, we need facts.