M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

Cookiemunster

zulutango wrote: »

It's a very good point. Intuitively the motorway makes sense, but intuitively isn't really good enough. The hard facts seem to only extend to how much quicker the journey between the two cities will be. Everything after that is crystal ball gazing.

If for example it led to the decline of Limerick (or indeed of Cork) would so many people be clamouring for it?

In saying that, increasing the connectivity between two important urban/economic areas surely has to be a boon to both? As you said, we need facts.

Not just quicker, but safer. The current road is dangerous and needs to be replaced for that reason alone.

zulutango

Yes, of course. That is an important factor too. The current road needs to be made more safe. It's not a given that it needs to be a motorway though. Do you know if a safety audit has been done?

Cookiemunster

zulutango wrote: »

Yes, of course. That is an important factor too. The current road needs to be made more safe. It's not a given that it needs to be a motorway though. Do you know if a safety audit has been done?

It is a given. If you're going to build a road between the second and third largest cities in the state then it's not going to be anything less than a motorway. It also won't just be a road linking Limerick and Cork, it will be the continuation of the Western corridor motorway running from Tuam all the way to Cork.

serfboard

pigtown wrote: »

I get why this is said and I was very much in agreement but I've realised that no one has said why it's essential. I get the theory that it will increase trade but have any studies been undertaken to prove this?
Do we know if it will be detrimental to Limerick as the smaller city?
By how much will tourism to Kerry and Cork be increased?

It's easy to assume that a new road and faster connections will be a great asset but I'd like these decisions to be made with cold hard facts, and the businesses that would be affected, positively or negatively, to be fully aware of the implications.

I also think you raise an important issue.

Here's a for instance - because of the completion of the motorway network going to Dublin, the PSO routes from Galway to Dublin Airport were cancelled, leading to the closure of Galway Airport. Michael O'Leary said that the motorway network would have an affect on Regional Airports - I see, for example that Eireagle (Citylink) are now running a non-stop service from Limerick to Dublin Airport - you would have to wonder about the effect that will have on Shannon.

The M20 is part of the Atlantic Road Corridor - it's not much talked about now, but the strategy was linking Waterford to Letterkenny via Cork, Limerick, Galway and Sligo, and the current and planned improvements are part of that overall strategy. The overall goal was for easier non-Dublin linkage, to provde a counter-balance to Dublin. As such I agree with that.

Unfortunately, though, Regional Development seems to have gone the opposite way, with people now using the motorway network to commute to Dublin from further and further away, and with a lot of FDI job announcements mystifyingly happening in Dublin - when a lot of them are service-based companies who could be based anywhere there is good broadband.

Of course businesses will be affected by the M20 if it ever gets built - some negatively - but that is no excuse for leaving the appallingly bad N20 as it is.

zulutango

serfboard wrote: »

Unfortunately, though, Regional Development seems to have gone the opposite way, with people now using the motorway network to commute to Dublin from further and further away, and with a lot of FDI job announcements mystifyingly happening in Dublin - when a lot of them are service-based companies who could be based anywhere there is good broadband.

It's very hard to attract young workers to anywhere other than Dublin. My own company in Limerick simply can't get staff, whereas our Dublin office is burgeoning at the seams mostly with foreign workers. There's no reason why many of these couldn't work out of the Limerick office, and their cost of living would be a fraction of what it is in Dublin but there really is huge resistance to moving here, and it's mostly down to the perception of the place. Having spent many years in both cities, Limerick is by far my preferred choice. But not many see it like I do I think.

pigtown

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Not just quicker, but safer. The current road is dangerous and needs to be replaced for that reason alone.

serfboard wrote: »

Of course businesses will be affected by the M20 if it ever gets built - some negatively - but that is no excuse for leaving the appallingly bad N20 as it is.

Absolutely. Something needs to be done about the current road. But whatever is built is going to be there forever effectively.
We already see the move towards self-driving vehicles, especially trucks and buses. Apparently these are safer on the road so this might address some of the safety issues on the road.
Developments in technology, and the roll-out of decent broadband, will more than likely lead to a huge percentage of the workforce working from home, reducing the commuting traffic.
Some cities are already banning diesel cars from their boundaries, will this have an effect on car ownership?
Emissions targets mean government policy will eventually switch to an anti-private car one, encouraging car sharing and public transport. Would this make a train link instead a more attractive option?

Most of these issues have only become mainstream relatively recently, would they change the outcome of the feasibility study? I don't know when it was done but this thread started in 2008 so it's at least a decade.

pigtown

zulutango wrote: »

It's very hard to attract young workers to anywhere other than Dublin. My own company in Limerick simply can't get staff, whereas our Dublin office is burgeoning at the seams mostly with foreign workers. There's no reason why many of these couldn't work out of the Limerick office, and their cost of living would be a fraction of what it is in Dublin but there really is huge resistance to moving here, and it's mostly down to the perception of the place. Having spent many years in both cities, Limerick is by far my preferred choice. But not many see it like I do I think.

This brings me back to my question, would the half a billion be better spent making each city a more attractive place to live? If the population is going to increase by 1 million by 2040 then it's not unreasonable to expect that most of these people will be living and working in a city. These people will need and want better ways to get around their city, not a better way to get to another city.

Cookiemunster

pigtown wrote: »

This brings me back to my question, would the half a billion be better spent making each city a more attractive place to live? If the population is going to increase by 1 million by 2040 then it's not unreasonable to expect that most of these people will be living and working in a city. These people will need and want better ways to get around their city, not a better way to get to another city.

I get where you're coming from, but they're not mutually exclusive. You also need decent transport links between the centers of population. At the moment there isn't one between Limerick and Cork. Both the road and the rail service between the two cities are sub standard.

Vanquished

pigtown wrote: »

This brings me back to my question, would the half a billion be better spent making each city a more attractive place to live? If the population is going to increase by 1 million by 2040 then it's not unreasonable to expect that most of these people will be living and working in a city. These people will need and want better ways to get around their city, not a better way to get to another city.

There are major infrastructural deficits within both cities and in the connectivity between them. Both of these issues need to be comprehensively addressed if the two cities are ever going to grow and develop to their potential!

pigtown

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I get where you're coming from, but they're not mutually exclusive. You also need decent transport links between the centers of population. At the moment there isn't one between Limerick and Cork. Both the road and the rail service between the two cities are sub standard.

Vanquished wrote: »

There are major infrastructural deficits within both cities and in the connectivity between them. Both of these issues need to be comprehensively addressed if the two cities are ever going to grow and develop to their potential!

I guess I'm of the opinion that connectivity within each city should take priority. I fear I'm in the minority about this though. If in 15 years Limerick and Cork are trying to attract a new Stripe office and Dublin's argument is that the new DartU and Luas lines will make it a very attractive place for a young, wealthy, highly mobile workforce, what will our argument be? Come to our city and you can sit on the N40 carpark or the Childers Road, but we've got a brand new motorway to get you out of here.

I don't mean to be facetious or dismissive but this is the way the economy is going. If we can't sell ourselves and compete with other European cities for investment then we'll be left behind.

dsix

zulutango wrote: »

It's very hard to attract young workers to anywhere other than Dublin. My own company in Limerick simply can't get staff, whereas our Dublin office is burgeoning at the seams mostly with foreign workers. There's no reason why many of these couldn't work out of the Limerick office, and their cost of living would be a fraction of what it is in Dublin but there really is huge resistance to moving here, and it's mostly down to the perception of the place. Having spent many years in both cities, Limerick is by far my preferred choice. But not many see it like I do I think.

From a foreigner point of view. I have lived in Dublin 10 years and visited most of Ireland during this period, a few times during our stay we evaluated the possibility of moving as I received a few calls from Galway, Limerick and Cork. In the end, we choose to stay here and pretty much those were our reasons:

- Airport Connection: flying to and from Dublin is way easier than adding the extra complication and cost of the commute to/from the airport, if it is your odd vacation is one thing, but if you need to visit the family (or have visits from the family/friends) during the year on top of your vacation, it can add to the cost and you need more vacation days.
- Infrastructure: Dublin public transport is already bad for European standards, the other cities in the republic are even worse. That will mean having the car (or two) is a necessity with all the added cost of it.
- Jobs: if you don't like the job/boss/office/etc, in Dublin is so much easier to change. If you take a job in Cork or Limerick or Galway, then you are kind of stuck with what is available there. Especially if it is not just a single, but a couple or family moving.
- Costs: rent apart, the three cities are not really that much cheaper than Dublin for bills, shopping and eating/drinking out.

Reputable Rog

Boom!
www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/Govt-open-to-M20-tie-up-with-private-companies-to-get-motorway-to-Limerick-built-7e192ec8-e262-4ef9-b78e-b8ca8cfc53db-ds

zulutango

dsix wrote: »

From a foreigner point of view. I have lived in Dublin 10 years and visited most of Ireland during this period, a few times during our stay we evaluated the possibility of moving as I received a few calls from Galway, Limerick and Cork. In the end, we choose to stay here and pretty much those were our reasons:

- Airport Connection: flying to and from Dublin is way easier than adding the extra complication and cost of the commute to/from the airport, if it is your odd vacation is one thing, but if you need to visit the family (or have visits from the family/friends) during the year on top of your vacation, it can add to the cost and you need more vacation days.
- Infrastructure: Dublin public transport is already bad for European standards, the other cities in the republic are even worse. That will mean having the car (or two) is a necessity with all the added cost of it.
- Jobs: if you don't like the job/boss/office/etc, in Dublin is so much easier to change. If you take a job in Cork or Limerick or Galway, then you are kind of stuck with what is available there. Especially if it is not just a single, but a couple or family moving.
- Costs: rent apart, the three cities are not really that much cheaper than Dublin for bills, shopping and eating/drinking out.

Great points and difficult to argue with. The one I'd quibble with is the costs. Rent in Dublin is inordinately higher than in Limerick. Also, if you don't need a car in Limerick then a very significant transport cost is eliminated too.

I would say that not all foreigners fit your profile though and for many Limerick should be a good option.

dsix

zulutango wrote: »

Great points and difficult to argue with. The one I'd quibble with is the costs. Rent in Dublin is inordinately higher than in Limerick. Also, if you don't need a car in Limerick then a very significant transport cost is eliminated too.

I would say that not all foreigners fit your profile though and for many Limerick should be a good option.

Yeah, we moved here as a couple so a single person coming will probably have different priorities. Those pretty much were the downside for us.

For the cost bit, I knew it would be controversial, but we were expecting more of a saving from moving out of the Pale. When we compared to Galway and Cork (we didn't look at Limerick prices too much in fairness) the rent was much higher than what we would have expected and we had to price in the car as well, as near where the job location was, it would have been next to impossible to go without it. So the cost was not as effective as someone would expect to swing all the others factor in.

neddynasty

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Boom!
www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/Govt-open-to-M20-tie-up-with-private-companies-to-get-motorway-to-Limerick-built-7e192ec8-e262-4ef9-b78e-b8ca8cfc53db-ds

I wouldn't be booming yet. Sorry to be pessimistic but you have a Labour Party TD, who isn't in power and won't be for a long time, calling for a PPP mechanism to build the road. Then we have the Ministers response saying we have to be careful about PPPs. Sounds to me like the Labour TD is looking for column inches and the Minister isn't that interested.

Limerick74

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Boom!
www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/Govt-open-to-M20-tie-up-with-private-companies-to-get-motorway-to-Limerick-built-7e192ec8-e262-4ef9-b78e-b8ca8cfc53db-ds

Nothing new here as the previous M20 was proposed to be constructed as a PPP Scheme.

Reputable Rog

Limerick74 wrote: »

Nothing new here as the previous M20 was proposed to be constructed as a PPP Scheme.

I was being ironic, just the usual cycle of ****e with this project.

kooga

Will it go to larne

Mc Love

HOUSING Minister Simon Coveney has indicated the private sector may help finance the Limerick to Cork motorway.

Speaking in the University of Limerick this week, the Cork TD described the proposed M20 link as the “biggest road project we need to find a way of financing and building”.

He said government is looking at many different ways of getting the project moving as quickly as possible.

“It is a project which is going to cost close to €1bn. So we need to look at new ways we can finance it, and get it moving earlier than many people predict,” he said.

Asked on these finance methods, Mr Coveney added: “You can look at public-private partnerships, for example. One of the challenges we have in Ireland is the fact that although accessing money is not a problem, but being able to spend it in a way which is consistent with the spending rules of the European Union is the big challenge.

“You can get over these spending rules by building now and paying later through public-private partnerships or other kinds of finance.”

The intervention of the private sector may see tolls introduced to the M20, in a similar fashion to the Limerick Tunnel or parts of the M7.

The Housing Minister said he is regularly in contact with Limerick’s political community to ensure the road link is made a priority.

“If we’re planning for the future, the idea you wouldn’t connect Ireland’s second and third cities so that combined they can provide a counter-balance to Dublin is a huge missed opportunity,” he said.

The government will unveil its capital spending review later this year, and it’s widely expected the Limerick to Cork motorway will feature heavily.

Mr Coveney was at the university, where he sought the ideas of students of the School of Architecture and Design on the Ireland 2040 national planning framework.

“It may be a long distance away. But in order to respond to challenges, we need to plan long term. We need an extra half a million houses, as we expect the population to grow by one million people. The question is: where are people going to live? Are we going to allow the dominance of Dublin to continue, when cities like Limerick don’t reach their potential,” he asked.

“What we have in Ireland is one very dominant city and lots of other cities that have the potential to grow and become regional drivers. Without managing that, it’s not going to happen by itself,” he added.

Asked about the leadership of Fine Gael, Mr Coveney declined to answer, saying: “This is not the occasion to be discussing that”.

He is expected to go against Leo Varadkar for the leadership of the party.

marno21

Realistically, unless it's built in segments the state won't be able to fund a project of this size.

But if it is being built as a PPP, hopefully it's built using the current system of availability payments instead of a hard toll. I don't think a hard toll would work very well on a road such as the M20.

boardsuser1

marno21 wrote: »

Realistically, unless it's built in segments the state won't be able to fund a project of this size.

But if it is being built as a PPP, hopefully it's built using the current system of availability payments instead of a hard toll. I don't think a hard toll would work very well on a road such as the M20.

PPP is probably the only way at this stage.

Same story (not going off topic) as the M8.

But would it discourage people from using it if a toll is imposed?

Jhcx

KC161 wrote: »

PPP is probably the only way at this stage.

Same story (not going off topic) as the M8.

But would it discourage people from using it if a toll is imposed?

Like i do with most tolls id use it upto the toll section then divert off and reconnect after. im willing to add an extra 10/15 minutes onto my journey. considering anyway, an m20 to cork would be far quicker than whats there. no rush at all.

telekon

Jhcx wrote: »

Like i do with most tolls id use it upto the toll section then divert off and reconnect after. im willing to add an extra 10/15 minutes onto my journey. considering anyway, an m20 to cork would be far quicker than whats there. no rush at all.

How much extra would that cost you fuel wise tho? I reckon at least the 2 euro the toll would cost.

boardsuser1

telekon wrote: »

How much extra would that cost you fuel wise tho? I reckon at least the 2 euro the toll would cost.

Just thinking the same.

Jhcx

telekon wrote: »

How much extra would that cost you fuel wise tho? I reckon at least the 2 euro the toll would cost.

well because the roads are slower im saving. i have a bit of a heavy foot on the motorway. average calculator shows that my milage is .14c per mile, so im kind of saving ...

D Trent

Deedsie wrote: »

I never understood that attitude... a vastly superior piece of infrastructure is provided and people try to avoid a €1.90 toll. It's saving you time, money and improves safety for road users.

Valid point but I also welcome people standing up for themselves and making a point.

For so long the Irish motorist has put up with a higher cost of living compared to majority of European countries. Look at NI.... Fine roads, zero tolls.

We pay higher motor tax rates, I'd bet the MOT is cheaper than our €55 NCT that is if you pass it first time. And don't get me started on Car insurance premiums.

But the good news is the prices we are paying ..........seem to be going up ??????

Why the fucI< should we pay tolls on new roads that should have been there since 1999?

Calina

I realise that it is a while since I drove in the Notrth but certainly five years ago the main roads in the South were better.

Autoroutes are tolled in France. I used to take 4.5 to five hours to get to Cork or Limerick. Toll was well worth it.

Reputable Rog

Autoroutes are tolled in France. I used to take 4.5 to five hours to get to Cork or Limerick. Toll was well worth it.[/quote]

Tolled at €6.85 per 1,000 km travelled. They also don't have a motor tax.
Based on the French system of tolling per 1,000km , the equivalent toll in Ireland would be €19.

AugustusMinimus

Deedsie wrote: »

Our motor tax doesn't pay for the roads, it's a tax on the emissions the vehicle produces. The money for the upkeep of our roads comes from general taxation.

Since when has Motor Tax been a tax on emissions. Isn't that what the carbon tax is?

Motor Tax was established years before emissions were an issue. It is just a tax setup to collect revenue. It has no reason past this.

spacetweek

Deedsie wrote: »

Motor tax is an emissions based tax.

It used be for road maintenance only but has evolved over the years into an emission-based tax. Still spent on road maintenance though.

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Tolled at €6.85 per 1,000 km travelled.

You're off by a factor of 10 at least! Tolls to drive from Paris to south of France were about 50 euro last time I heard. The Millau Viaduct charges 5 euro alone just to cross that bridge.
Same in Italy, and Germany is introducing tolls this year. It's only a matter of time before the UK does.